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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:27 pm 
Deus ex MS
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Hey Eric; I've been scaling down my install for the past two years, only to find out that it sounds much better now.
Don't "upscale" too soon as your install might be better right this moment than it will be two years from now.... :lol:
Nico


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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:10 am 
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As the "less is more" approach appealed to me for years already, I decided to build a preamp for matching the ZEN tube amp.
Having only a few solderings inside, the signal-path in this amp already is SHORT.[parts are connected with their own leads only, no wires here].
After moving the inputs to the front, where the connectors sit only 1cm from the input-tube, I connected these with a small strip of silver to the tube-base.
No internal signal wires left in the amp; a good start.
My preamp has been placed inside a housing that is barely bigger than the board; connectors are soldered directly to it; no signal wires here either, except for two times 8cm silver strips in teflon, which connect the super-quality pot to it. Inputs are again directly connected to the pot.
This leaves the signal with a very short path to run; leaving more information for me to hear through my speakers [that's the whole idea].I did however add the luxury of a programmable 3-way tone-correction to adapt the sound better to our livingroom.
I've been taking apart many electrical things since my childhood to find out if there was room for improvement... sometimes the only improvement was that I learned it could not be improved....nor be used again. :lol:
Also I gave up on audio gear that looks stunning but sounds like shit....I'd rather have it the opposite way, so this preamp is mounted in a simple polished aluminium housing.
End of this story; new musical information comes out of the system that was hidden before.This prototype sound promising enough to go further on this road.
Just wanted to share as I know many of you own good stereo sets in the home as well as in your cars.
As mentioned before; sometimes "downsizing" is an improvement.
Nico


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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:00 am 
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For quite some time I used MS amps for running my home setup. After selling the whole collection due to circumstances I changed to tube amps and stayed with them.
As many of you guys love good music but most of all good quality [that's why you hang on to PG stuff..] I'd like to tell you I've heard many [manymany] loudspeakersystems over the years, from cheap to redicilously expensive but came to the conclusion that only a good high efficiency loudspeakersystem pared with a battery-powered amp OR a SET tube-amp brings me real music.
I have not heard a single solid state amp [AC powered] with direct radiating speakers that offer the sense of "beeing there" that these "old skool" horns and amp combinations give me.
So for everybody who has a spare [ best PG :lol: ] car amp and a battery; try it on your home-install, especially if you happen to own higher [more than 93Db efficient] loudspeakers.
You might find yourself a step or two closer to what people call "audio nirvana" ......
As for me; it's two steps forward, one step back and some times the other way around. At the moment trying out a different set of midhorns.
But when I'm sitting in that chair playing some music don't try to contact me for I'm not there.... :wink:

P.S; I've got four mint grey 9.5/10 MS275 's for sale, still original but can be bought recapped as well.
Nico


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EV hoorns, CP25's en K43e WOOFERS 001.JPG
EV hoorns, CP25's en K43e WOOFERS 001.JPG [ 284.94 KiB | Viewed 8845 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:51 pm 
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Update; after three weeks of listening to the Electrovoice HR60 horns sitting on top of the La Scala's I decided to keep them.
This also ment that I would cut out the motorboard to accomodate them thus altering the original looks of the speakers.... something I always avoided while upgrading them.

First I had to cut off some material of the flanges of these BIG horns so that they would JUST fit into the space available.
Second, after some sleepless hours I removed all speakerunits plus crossover, placed the cabs outside and after carefull measuring routed out the motorboards.
After owning them for more than 25 years this was a kinda scary job, especially because these speakersystems are quite rare over here in Europe, certainly in this mint condition.

My wife had gotten used to their appearance [ and size] and didn't like the idea of me building a whole new system which would be a bigger one as well. After a lot of hours working on this system, the endresult is worth it; I'm VERY, VERY HAPPY! These big horns also SOUND BIG and give me even more the feeling of "beeing there" than before.
These [now one-of-a-kind ] speakerset has gone up the ladder soundwise a lot compared with the original La Scala's which were already upgraded and sounding great with all new parts to get rid of the shortcomings of the original design.

Just wanted to post this, to express that sometimes you have to leave originality for better sound IMO; after all what is audio supposed to do...? PRODUCE LIFE-LIKE SOUND....
HORNS for me are the way to submerge in sound; check it out when you have the opportunity, a good system can knock you off your feet [by quality, sheer dynamics and loudness]. 8)
Nico


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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:15 am 
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Very nice, makes me think of the image dynamics horns from the 90s car systems, they needed mid/bass drivers to assist though if I remember.

Whats the bottom part of the speaker with the triangular look for?



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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:55 am 
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PhuckinGood wrote:
Very nice, makes me think of the image dynamics horns from the 90s car systems, they needed mid/bass drivers to assist though if I remember.

Whats the bottom part of the speaker with the triangular look for?


It's the basshorn which covers everything below 400Hz.
Hidden in the closet under the tv is a REL Strata subwoofer [active] which covers everything below 80Hz
These horns are fantastic, but for lower frequencies they have to be very big [too big for a normal livingroom]. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:48 am 
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nico boom wrote:
PhuckinGood wrote:
Very nice, makes me think of the image dynamics horns from the 90s car systems, they needed mid/bass drivers to assist though if I remember.

Whats the bottom part of the speaker with the triangular look for?


It's the basshorn which covers everything below 400Hz.
Hidden in the closet under the tv is a REL Strata subwoofer [active] which covers everything below 80Hz
These horns are fantastic, but for lower frequencies they have to be very big [too big for a normal livingroom]. :wink:


Ah I see, so there's two horns in each speaker dealing with different ranges, wish I could hear them. May keep an eye out for some of the image horns and mids for a car install hmmm...



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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:17 pm 
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Actually it's a three-way system....there's a horntweeter as well which covers everything from 4500Hz and up.
Since I replaced the mid-horns there's no room for them anymore so they simply sit on top of the cabinets.
I also did not fit the crossovers inside the cabinets anymore for easier adjustment and less vibrations on the crossover-components.


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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:30 pm 

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only for this reason, Nico, i keep at home 2 ms275, 2 ms 2125 and 1 Original ms 2250 aside

to build a badass home system....... whenever my car is ready :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray:


it is really impressive what you are doing there........... :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:53 pm 
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No way! You cut them up!?! Why not sell them and build custom horn cabinets? They probably wouldn't have been TOO difficult to replicate, at probably a fraction of the cost that you could sell the Scalas for... :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:32 pm 
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Well I have to admit I thought about that option for quite some time but wanted to keep my own cabs Tom.

A mint set of La Scala's that was recently offered for sale here in The Netherlands; they didn't sell for the 2000 euros asking price.
So if I wanted to sell mine they wouldn't have fetched what I put into them, especially with all the upgraded parts ;they would have been impossible to sell.
I sold the original parts years ago and openedup the "doghouse" on the inside to get better bassresponse so they couldn't be sold as "original" anymore.

Money isn't everything Tom; that's what I ment by my comment that sometimes you have to sacrifice originality [value] for something you like better [and sounds better].

I am very happy now with my decision; they never sounded so good for the past 25 years that I own them!
Also modded my tubeamps in a way that will be hard to go back to stock, but who cares as long as they play so damn good with these horns that I won't sell them anyway.
Before I die I can always leave them in my will to someone.... your son Nico for example? :wink:

Greetings for you family!
Nico


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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:52 pm 

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Amazing work Nico. They look great and i imagine sound as good as real life, maybe better.

I have toyed around with using PG amps and processors in the home, and admittedly they sounded great. Albeit at the time i was rooming with other people and the rest of the gear was not mine :cry:

I wish to someday have a high end home theatre system but for now i will settle for getting my high end car install finished.

LL



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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:31 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:24 am
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Location: Ohio
PM sent. Chris.


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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:17 am 

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Nico. Impressed with what you have done and interested to take some if your ideas and toy with them myself. I'm not sure if you have given links or what not. But is there any DIY builds using horns that you recommend. Amp system you run is custom I see.

I have 2 x ms2125 currently. And thinking of having multiple units for 7.1 setup. Most likely run class d for sub system but enjoy the thought of having 4 to 5 ms2125s doing the biz. Display wise they are beautiful amps and like the idea of lit and recessed into the walls around the room.

The horns are a beauty and I'm liking that concept visually and the idea of them sound wise. Although have not heard a set.

I'd have to say I'm a Boston acoustics freak to some extent but open to all ideas.

Curved wood.....



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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:47 am 
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If you are considering using MS amps with horns, you won't need more than a MS275 for each channel.
There are a lot of DYI horn designs on the market so I encourage you to try to find, and listen to some designs.
Remember that if you want bass...you need BIG horns; that's why I use a good active sub for the lowest octave.
Building a MS based home-install will defenately be very cool IMO and when powered by clean current [battery] you should enjoy not only the looks of it, but also the sound.
Good luck and keep us posted on the forum if you make progress.
Nico


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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:16 pm 

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Yes. No doubt the ms2125 plenty of power but the cosmetics of the 2125 and 2250 melt me to my knees. The ms275 doesn't do anything for me cosmetics.

Ill start digging. Looking at options. Cheers



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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:37 pm 

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Verry inspireing home stereo system Nico. It makes me want to rebuild mine. Roughly how much would shipping be to the USA for the MS275s? Thanks. Chris


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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:17 am 
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Hi Chris, I'm on vacation right now and will check shipping when we're back home again [two weeks].Will let you know asap.
Thanks,
Nico


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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:42 pm 

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Thanks Nico. No rush,hope you enjoy your vacation. Chris.


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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:11 am 

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Nico, roughly how much for the MS275s recapped and shipped to Ohio with insurance? Thanks. Chris.


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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:38 am 
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Hi Chris, PM send ;sorry for the delay. :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:14 am 
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Update......

About 5 months ago I bought a monstrous pair of horns, model University Classic S-9 , used in a theatre here in The Netherlands.
I had no way to transport them, no need for them, no room to put them in, a perfectly tuned set of Klipsch La Scala's at home and a wife who I promissed "that I would not bring home bigger speakers than these Klipsch" .......

But I found myself staring at the add day after day, then finally when the set did not sell for a few weeks I phoned the owner.
He was living 200Km away, picking them up would already be a problem, but we had a nice conversation and he offered them for a small amount so I thought "what the heck" and agreed to pick them up the next weekend [did not have a clue how].
Told my wife I did something crazy and showed her the add...she stared at them and laughed. After that she told me to "get those monsters" and we'd go from there.

Next weekend I loaned a small trailer and drove down to the other side of Holland. After a short check and a nice conversation we hauled them on the trailer and off I went, hoping for dry weather.
Coming home and showing my wife what I had in the trailer was a comic event; these things were BIG ! [and black]

We dragged one inside and swapped it for one of the Klipsch , played some music and agreed "these were our next speakers".

After 5 months of intense labour they have undergone a complete transformation and look just as good as they sound!
Today I hear them for the first time and also felt the floor move under my feet for the first time..

Two pics out of a few hundred of the build; how I picked them up and one of today.
To be continued.
Nico
[notice the 2 Watt tube amp next to it, enough power to move the whole room 8) ]


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diversen en classics klaar 099.JPG
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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:08 am 
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Nico! OMG!!! You've outdone yourself once again!

I take it those cabinets are home made? Stunning design! What subwoofers did you go with?

MORE MORE MORE :D:D:D


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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:32 pm 
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Hi Tom, haha... Wil says "de man heeft een hobby... :lol:

Actually I used the original cabs, sawed all parts off that had no function soundwise and covered the rest with 9mm birch, making all walls more than a inch thick. Also I wanted a composite-style cabinet to avoid resonances; the glue formed a kind of rubber layer between the two layers of wood.

So I ended up with two cabs that suddenly had attractive forms and worked on the other ideas that I had in mind right after I saw them for the first time.
The components are "University sound" that later became "Altec Lansing" , a name well know for hornspeakers.
The woofer is a HUGE double voicecoil 15 inch , model C15-W and it would be a shame to hide it again behind the front panel; I made a window frame out of a special [very tough] aluminium and glued 15mm lexan to it.

Next I used the standard heavy aluminium Cobreflex folded midhorn [yes, folded] and one of my Klipsch K55-V drivers for midsection.
The tweeter is from Bob Crites, same as in my La Scala's and I fitted it in the midhorn's outer edge; looks like it was ment to be there now.

Crossover is the ALK "universal" filter, same again as my La Scala's for it's a very good filter and is.... well like the name says, very universal.

Ofcourse I added braces into the horn's mouth and woofer chamber, and I welded a ball-pivot to hang the mid/high section into the horn's mouth; I can point it in any direction now [listening-position is ideal].

Today I dragged them into place [I can only estimate their weight by now] and connected them to the 2 Watt tube-monoblocks.
With a CD of "slagerij van Kampen" [big Japanse drums] ,I felt the floor moving.
These cabs are known for their smoothness and punch in the lower octaves; the exponential horn has a very gentle curve and reaches into the midrange easily before the Cobreflex takes over.

Some pics to end for now; I can tell you that I've had some sleepless nights trying to solve some problems and finding a way to improve the WAF factor.....Wil says WOW! so I guess that means "mission accomplished" 8)

Now some finishing work is to be done and then sell the La Scala's ...... never thought I would say that so" never say never"!

PM me with some family info from your end o.k?
Say hello to Wendy and Nico!


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 Post subject: Re: HORNS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:40 pm 
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Some more, can't figure out exactly what came first and the reverse posting of pics uploaded is a pain in the . . . sometimes.
You'll be able to figure out what came first yourself.
Nico


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