Home Speakers

Post by **stipud** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:26 pm

I'm really bored with my home speaker setup. They sound decent, but not awesome. For having 8" woofers, they produce no bass whatsoever. The Peerless sub takes care of the bottom end, but getting them to blend is a challenge, considering they roll off steeply at about 80Hz according to my trusty RTA. Now that my headphones are sorted out, and my car still sounds phenomenal, it's time to go back and look at the home stereo again.

Here's are some pictures of my speakers and general setupyness:
http://photo.stipud.com/d/631-1/DSC01719.JPG
http://photo.stipud.com/d/649-2/DSC02303.JPG

I was considering just replacing the drivers with some better stuff, but it's proven remarkably difficult to find a driver with an 8" overall external diameter. The only thing I can find is Goldwood crap, and that would not be any better than the drivers that came with the speakers. My fallback case would be cutting out the entire front baffle, and then screwing in a new board behind it. Ghetto styles!

What do you guys think of this kit?
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshow ... /index.cfm

I can get it for $850 shipped including duty and brokerage fees. The shipping cost is pretty extreme at around $200 if you include UPS brokerage fees, so I am open to options on this side of the border as well.

I loved the Dayton reference speakers that we put in Fuzzy's truck. The build quality is in-frigging-credible for their pricepoint. And those little 5" drivers sound CLEAN and put out retarded midbass off of just deck power. Seriously! We disabled the subwoofer and thought that it was still running. So the thought of having a pair of 7" drivers just gives me a stiffy.

Added bonus: all of the drivers are shielded, so I don't have to install them 15 miles away from my ancient CRT.

So what do you guys think? $850 is already VERY steep for what I would want to spend, but if it's worth it then it's worth it. If you have any cheaper ($500 would be awesome!) or equal cost recommendations that would work just as well or better, then I am all ears.

Post by **bdubs767** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:39 pm

Tom why not design your own? It cost me $1000 for my scan towers I made. So for only $150 more and little work you can prob have far better results...

And you can buy the driver from solen too so no ghey fees. Also they should have kits there too.

Post by **bdubs767** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:42 pm

give solen a call and tell them your situation Im sure they can design you something.

Post by **stipud** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:44 pm

bdubs767 wrote:Tom why not design your own? It cost me $1000 for my scan towers I made. So for only $150 more and little work you can prob have far better results...

And you can buy the driver from solen too so no ghey fees. Also they should have kits there too.

$1000 for you = $1200 for me... and now we're talking double my budget. Don't forget shipping cost to Canuckville. Plus I don't have the luxury of building my own speaker cabinets, so that throws an enormous wrench in things, as that adds substantially to the cost AND shipping.

Solen's website is an abortion straight out of 1995. Picking parts out of their online catalog is about as easy as breathing water. I've tried creativesound.ca, but they seem to be stuck in limbo since Adire has closed. They offer a few kits, but nothing that seems overly amazing.

Post by **stipud** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:45 pm

bdubs767 wrote:give solen a call and tell them your situation Im sure they can design you something.

What, you mean talk to a human without a keyboard? How would I do that? I don't have a mouth. I suppose I could just click my lobster claws and hope that they understand morse code.

Post by **bdubs767** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:47 pm

stipud wrote:
bdubs767 wrote:Tom why not design your own? It cost me $1000 for my scan towers I made. So for only $150 more and little work you can prob have far better results...

And you can buy the driver from solen too so no ghey fees. Also they should have kits there too.
$1000 for you = $1200 for me... don't forget shipping cost to Canuckville. Plus I don't have the luxury of building my own speaker cabinets, so that throws an enormous wrench in things, as that adds substantially to the cost AND shipping.

Solen's website is an abortion straight out of 1995. Picking parts out of their online catalog is about as easy as breathing water. I've tried creativesound.ca, but they seem to be stuck in limbo since Adire has closed. They offer a few kits, but nothing that seems overly amazing.

Thats true...you coudl try http://www.meniscusaudio.com

They are awsome, I use them instead of madi now. Much nicer and willing to work w/ you on anything. Also they do leap designs, Id give them call first and see what they can offer you. Just tell them your a cancuck ect and how much $ your have for it. They were awsome for me.

Post by **Eric D** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:03 pm

Build a set of these…

http://users.tkk.fi/~aoniemel/embla/index3.html

My pair cost me about $350 to make.

They have far better low end, and almost as much detail as my $2,000 DIY home speakers.

If you want the plans for the Seas Embla, I have the PDF somewhere, I just need to dig it up.

The tweeter is about $25, and the woofer is about $40.

Here is another option which will likely perform very well…

http://www.madisound.com/MD04.html

Or this one…

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/produc ... cts_id=379

Post by **Eric D** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:06 pm

I know the guy who runs meniscusaudio, he was in the same local AES chapter I was in. I have not seen him in several years, but last I remember he was very helpful and ran a quality business. I need to stop by his new facility and see what he has in stock.

444 FED · Post by **444 FED** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:50 pm

Any reason you're looking at these "kits"?

Anything wrong with just buying a pair of speakers?

I absolutly love my Paradigms. Monitor 5. A lot of bottom end, almost to the point of too much, pretty linear, with smooth sound. Handle power well too, I have them running off a Yamaha RX-V659 (100w/ch).

Post by **stipud** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:18 pm

444 FED wrote:Any reason you're looking at these "kits"?

Anything wrong with just buying a pair of speakers?

The only reason I would rather buy kits than speakers is due to the instant markup placed on an assembled setup. Take a set of the cheapest $10 drivers, add a pathetic crossover, throw them in an enclosure, and voila... you've got some $500 speakers. Of course any Canadian audio dealer will automatically double the price (at least) of anything they sell as well, so now we're up to $1000. Couple that with high pressure commission sales, and you've got a winning package! The only time I ever buy from stores here is on boxing day.

All of the dealers here in Calgary are awful. We either have the commission jockeys; Visions, International Stereo -- now out of business thank god, A&B Sound and the worst of all... Soundsaround, or we have the big box chains; Future Shop, Best Buy. My best speaker shopping experiences have been at flea markets. At least you get what you pay for there... CRAP.

It's been a long time, but I seem to remember my dad spending $350 for on these Nuance bookshelves back in the day, and that was because they were 50% off!! They are basically a big speaker version of the BOSE scam. Here's a thread that I believe tells all:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/sh ... .php?t=864

Still, if you can recommend a non-kit speaker that sounds really good on a budget, then I am open to suggestions.

Post by **bdubs767** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:57 pm

Eric D wrote:I know the guy who runs meniscusaudio, he was in the same local AES chapter I was in. I have not seen him in several years, but last I remember he was very helpful and ran a quality business. I need to stop by his new facility and see what he has in stock.

Well who ever I did business w/ was a great help and I will only do business w/ them from now on. Much better then madi.

Post by **stipud** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:10 pm

To show just how shitty the Nuance speakers are, here's a comparison graph of my "$800" Nuance speakers (top) against some cheap Sony speakers (bottom) that Fuzzy got for about $100.

The Sony's were a breeze to EQ. We had them playing +-10dB in the room from 40 to 20khz. The Nuance speakers on the other hand retained those enormous dips no matter how much I tried to EQ or adjust them. I even tried measuring them from a meter away with a 1 watt signal, and a duvet pulled over the rig to minimize reflections (ghetto anechoic chamber

)... and those bumps were STILL present.

Awful awful speakers.

Post by **stipud** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:16 pm

Here are the same speakers after my best effort at EQing. Note I turned on 1/3 octave smoothing to try to flatter the Nuance speakers

Post by **bdubs767** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:45 pm

what program is that tom?

Post by **stipud** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:49 pm

Based on how shitty my speakers rate, I figure I might actually take a shot at stuffing the enclosure myself, to see if I can do any better. It sounds like a fun challenge, and I really do like my enclosures... I just hate the speakers

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl ... er=275-070
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl ... er=290-314
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl ... er=260-142

That would cost me less than $200 shipped priority mail, including duty.

Decisions decisions...

Post by **stipud** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:49 pm

bdubs767 wrote:what program is that tom?

FuzzMeasure. One of the simpler RTA programs I use on my Mac.

444 FED · Post by **444 FED** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:51 pm

I think you need to do some research before saying all speaker companies are like that.

Sounds like it's been a while since you've been into any electronics store, out of resentment.

My Paradigms at full retail IIRC were about the $850ish mark that you are willing to pay for these lesser "kit" speakers. Unfortunatly the v.4 Monitor 5s are no longer made, the v5s however are the current offering and do sound good, just not quite as smooth as the v4s IMO, but then again there really is no v5 replacment for my speakers, so it's hard to compare on equal footing.

Take a look at the Paradigm Monitor series, they are VERY good, Canadian made, and unless you spend twice as much on other companies speakers it's hard to equal the perfromance of these speakers. The Monitor 7s almost sound like they would be up your alley, Dual 5.5" bass drivers, one 5.5" mid driver floor standing ported enclosure, with a nice dome tweeter. I don't recall the price exactly but IIRC they were around the same price as what you have set as a possible price (850ish)
http://paradigm.com/en/paradigm/fronts- ... 7.paradigm

The speaker just 'below' the 7s is the Titan Monitor, "bookshelf" type speaker, more like floor stands, single 7.5" bass/mid driver, in a ported enclosure with the same dome tweeter as the Monitor 7.
http://paradigm.com/en/paradigm/fronts- ... 2.paradigm

Post by **stipud** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:18 pm

444 FED wrote:I think you need to do some research before saying all speaker companies are like that.

It's not the speaker companies, it's the local dealers. It seems that everyone in Calgary has more money than knowledge, so high pressure commission sales rule here. I have yet to find a trustworthy LOCAL dealership with quality products that don't have a ridiculous markup or spiky haired punkass salesmen who call me "bro".

I do like the looks of your Paradigm speakers, so I will check out their local dealer. Surprisingly enough they didn't use one of the awful chains here. They have an independent shop instead, one I have never been to, so I might just find the dealer I am looking for. Fingers are crossed. Knocking on wood.

Post by **bdubs767** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:49 pm

stipud wrote:
444 FED wrote:I think you need to do some research before saying all speaker companies are like that.
It's not the speaker companies, it's the local dealers. It seems that everyone in Calgary has more money than knowledge, so high pressure commission sales rule here. I have yet to find a trustworthy LOCAL dealership with quality products that don't have a ridiculous markup or spiky haired punkass salesmen who call me "bro".

I do like the looks of your Paradigm speakers, so I will check out their local dealer. Surprisingly enough they didn't use one of the awful chains here. They have an independent shop instead, one I have never been to, so I might just find the dealer I am looking for. Fingers are crossed. Knocking on wood.

Tom...if you want again I could build you some...and actually if you were willing to spend the cash I could re produce mine as I already have the leap design for it. You could get them to match the peerless subs perfectly too. It wouldnt be hard to make some cuts again, this time Ill double check it though lol. Honestly I have to build some super enclosure w/ wood and cement for my Aura NS15 and probably will re build my scan towers as I want them to be free standing towers now instead of one stands. Plus I have an extra set of stands too. LMK and we can work it out...

Post by **bdubs767** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:44 pm

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0185138757

soth · Post by **soth** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:16 pm

http://www.klipsch.com/products/lists/f ... nding.aspx

Anybody used Klipsch besides me here? I've got bookshelves, not the floorstanding, but from the ones i've heard they are simply amazing.

Post by **Francious70** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:24 pm

My one day Father in Law has some, I've never heard them, but he seems to like them.

Ahsmo · Post by **Ahsmo** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:44 pm

soth wrote:http://www.klipsch.com/products/lists/f ... nding.aspx

Anybody used Klipsch besides me here? I've got bookshelves, not the floorstanding, but from the ones i've heard they are simply amazing.

The speakers are great for live music and things like that. I dont care for them for anything else. I've listened to them a lot. I have an achient set of their reference series speakers that I love. The new, not so much.

I love my paradigms. I prolly paid too much for them but who gives a shit when you come back from sea and everyone is up and dying?

One of the high end stereo mags I picked up in an air port somewhere reported that the 200 dollar pardigm studio series speakers did very well. If I would looking for bookshelve speakers I would be out for those.

nico boom · Post by **nico boom** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:26 pm

Hey Tom; just tell me what you'd like, and i'll build them for you...I'll put a suitcase-style handle on each one, and next time you're here, you leave your suitcases behind, stuff your clothes in the cabinets and fly home.

[good speaker-kits are soo cheap over here..

]
Woodwork; doing it yourself will allow to double the thickness of the material, and decrease the overall costs by two....

Post by **Wakeup** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:56 pm

nico boom wrote:Hey Tom; just tell me what you'd like, and i'll build them for you...I'll put a suitcase-style handle on each one, and next time you're here, you leave your suitcases behind, stuff your clothes in the cabinets and fly home.
[good speaker-kits are soo cheap over here.. ]
Woodwork; doing it yourself will allow to double the thickness of the material, and decrease the overall costs by two....

Heheh...that'd be awesome! I'd love to see Tom come home with a set of speaker cabs for luggage! hahah....need to have pictures of that when/if that happens!