Phoenix Gold Update

MW3 · Post by **MW3** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:08 am

Hi Guys,

Hope all is well with the PG die hards. I have some exciting news for you.

As most of you know, Phoenix Gold Car Audio has been acquired by AAMP of America. I have returned to PG to develop and manage product.

AAMP brings a lot of resources and fully understands the PG history. Moving forward I think you die hards will be very happy.

Morgan West
Product Manager
AAMP of America

Post by **Rold Gold** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:11 am

http://phoenixphorum.com/pg-news-vt11378.html

I'm excited to see what happens for sure. to say the least......

longboard · Post by **longboard** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:12 am

sounds good !!

Audiophiliac · Post by **Audiophiliac** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:19 am

Sweet!

AAMP217 · Post by **AAMP217** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:16 am

Audiophiliac wrote:Sweet!

indeed

itchnertamatoa · Post by **itchnertamatoa** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:57 am

AAMP217 wrote:
Audiophiliac wrote:Sweet!
indeed

exactly

Post by **stipud** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:10 pm

Precisely

jbondox · Post by **jbondox** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:47 pm

2 months later... seems like a lot of talk.. actually hardly any talk... makes me wonder...

AAMP217 · Post by **AAMP217** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:54 pm

jbondox wrote:2 months later... seems like a lot of talk.. actually hardly any talk... makes me wonder...

James,

There will not be any offical released information until CES. We have given up some of the the direction in the other threads but there will not be anything official until January.

jbondox · Post by **jbondox** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:33 pm

But there is sure as shit no hype either.

this usually happens with "me too" brands

there is nothing going on period. aren't you supposed to show up with a bunch of dealers waiting in line to see the brand? for sure... what about customers calling to see if something is available? not happening either.

you need to generate some type of excitement... but like i said, I will never hold my breath again... all those resources at amp and ... never mind...

MW3 · Post by **MW3** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:34 am

Jimbo,

There is certainly plenty going on, I can assure you.

We have released a few sneak peeks with more to come.

See how we come to market over the next 6 to 12 months. Then render your opinion.

jbondox · Post by **jbondox** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:07 pm

there is no hype before spending the money on a doomed CES?

I have yet to hear of anything, I am in the business, I am a retailer also... so I should be hearing something? YES? NO?

Stereo Junkie · Post by **Stereo Junkie** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:58 pm

jbondox,

That is not necessarily true. Stay with me here.

There are certain times that it is best to be completely quite until it comes time to produce a working product and then blitzkrieg it. This keeps people/press/etc calling it vaporware, the product being written off prematurely, or even not living up to hype (this can really get out of control). I am trying to think of a company that has recently done this and what comes to mind is Nintendo with the release of the Wii. This almost suffered from over hype based on the name alone! Given that the PG name has lost a lot of the luster that it had back in the day, you yourself have asserted the same, it makes sense to keep things under wraps to keep the negativity down.

Now I am not saying this is what they are doing, but it would make sense in this case to let the product do the talking. I for one really enjoy knowing some of this before it happens and am along for the ride.

Down the road,
Stereo Junkie

jbondox · Post by **jbondox** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:39 am

I see your point, but being in the business for a pretty damn long time, I can tell you this... you need hype.

If you are designing something hand built in the USA with superior electronics, different from everyone else, keep it a secret... you building something overseas that is coming off the line next to exile, or power accoustik you need the hype up front...

look at the JL Audio HD amps... those were sold before they were even built... not saying they are the greatest amps out there, but they sell and work... they were advertising them as coming soon way before to generate hype with their dealers...

but they had dealers... amp doesn't technically

jay00f4 · Post by **jay00f4** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:01 pm

I know I am excited and can't wait for the release.

bruther · Post by **bruther** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:06 pm

I am looking forward to seeing the new amps

Topdown · Post by **Topdown** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:02 pm

jbondox wrote:I see your point, but being in the business for a pretty damn long time, I can tell you this... you need hype.

If you are designing something hand built in the USA with superior electronics, different from everyone else, keep it a secret... you building something overseas that is coming off the line next to exile, or power accoustik you need the hype up front...

I am in the same boat as you jbondox - I am still collecting old MS and MPS amps because nothing made today can touch them.

I am not willing to hold my breath for another chinese made amp with a PG logo stamped or screened on it...

I keep hoping though, maybe foolishly, that when AAMP says they "get it" that they really do get it and that the reason they arent pimping their new gear is because it WILL be designed and built here in the USA, with REALLY high quality US parts.

I also pray to god that they dont come out looking like AudioBahn's, all chrome and flames and bullsh*t that tries to draw attention away from how poorly they perform. The old M, MS, MPS, Sapphire amps were exceptionally simple and classy not gaudy with iron crosses and olde-english (think MTX)

Patience is a virtue I suppose, but not a virtue I personally have a great deal of.

What I DO have a great deal of is hope... I hope that AAMP REALLY DOES get it and that we're not hearing anything because the new lines are enough on their own.

Hope and patience... mostly hope.

Post by **fuzzysnuggleduck** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:29 pm

Topdown wrote:I am in the same boat as you jbondox - I am still collecting old MS and MPS amps because nothing made today can touch them.

I am not willing to hold my breath for another chinese made amp with a PG logo stamped or screened on it...

I keep hoping though, maybe foolishly, that when AAMP says they "get it" that they really do get it and that the reason they arent pimping their new gear is because it WILL be designed and built here in the USA, with REALLY high quality US parts.

I also pray to god that they dont come out looking like AudioBahn's, all chrome and flames and bullsh*t that tries to draw attention away from how poorly they perform. The old M, MS, MPS, Sapphire amps were exceptionally simple and classy not gaudy with iron crosses and olde-english (think MTX)

Patience is a virtue I suppose, but not a virtue I personally have a great deal of.

What I DO have a great deal of is hope... I hope that AAMP REALLY DOES get it and that we're not hearing anything because the new lines are enough on their own.

Hope and patience... mostly hope.

While I'm certainly not an authority, I think everyone is relatively certain AAMP will not be building PG amps and gear in America.

Since you seem to have far more knowledge on this subject than I do, did M and MS amps even have American made components? I know the amps were hand built in America but were the individual component also made in America?

I think the original capacitors were Nichion (Japanese), were they not? What about the OPAMPs and BJTs? I'm just guessing here, but my feeling is that even back then those parts were made overseas. Please correct me if I am wrong.

dwnrodeo · Post by **dwnrodeo** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:47 pm

I am in the same boat as you jbondox - I am still collecting old MS and MPS amps because nothing made today can touch them

Here is a post from member Eric D.

I know perceived value has a lot of impact. I would take a mint Sapphire or XS amp over probably any of the best Asia has to offer today, so it will take a lot of work to get Asian amps to win my heart.

On another note...

I like MS amps, but firmly believe the only reason they are popular today is all the limited edition variations which gained fame. Engineering wise, MS is inferior to many products on the market, then and now. The method of mounting the transistors is highly unreliable, the RCA wires are a joke, and the way the boards are mounted into the heatsink is crude at best. But these are amps which gave PG a start, so they are expected to be crude. IMO the ZX and ZPA amps are the peak of PG technology, performance, and quality (not reliability though). The Ti line is probably just behind the ZX, due to loss of performance by a bit

Post by **stipud** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:15 pm

I don't think you can really blame PG for moving their manufacturing overseas. Your qualms would be better aimed against the current socioeconomic environment in North America. We have all sold our souls to the gods of Walmart for the sake of lower prices, even if it means cutting off a limb to get them.

Unfortunately the purist audiophile spare-no-cost Made'n'Merca market is not big enough to support a company the size of PG. People like you who desire this level of authenticity have always been forced to buy from niche brands, who don't have a large staff to support, or angry shareholders to satisfy. Let's not forget, back when PG was making MS amps, they were still a niche brand, which is why they could offer such a groundbreaking amplifier at the time.

However, in order for a company to survive in our economy, they are forced to continously expand. Lack of growth is a sign of complete corporate failure; your shareholders will be furious, and you will lose your financial backing. So PG continued to grow and grow, until their environment forced change. Larger companies who still want to be competitive on a global scale have all been forced to move their manufacturing to Asia. This is not only true for PG, and not only true for Car Audio, but practically all areas of manufacturing, which was once a proud and prominent enterprise in North America.

The face of car audio has also changed over the years. Previously it was led by home audiophiles who desired the same sound in their cars that they had in their homes. But since then the appeal has become much broader, so you see everything from seasoned audiophiles to snot nosed boomer teens with their tuner Honda Civics. As the appeal expanded, being competitive and continuing to grow your business also meant lowering your costs to allow the broader market to access your product. This also explains why the look and feel has changed over the years,

PG was one of the last large North American brands to jump ship to Asian manufacturing, which is very commendable (although probably has a lot to do with their current state of distress). And at the very least, they have kept their engineering in the US. Their top of the line amplifiers are still true to the originals, offering Triple Darlington BJT amp layouts and other audiophile circuitry. I challenge you to try a proper gain-matched double-blind A/B comparison between your MS amps and any newer top spec PG amplifier, and clearly point out the MS as the superior product every time. It won't happen. The amps still have the same signature sound quality, the same high grade components, and the same engineering. New PG amps are still an immense value, despite not being 100% focused on their original goal.

Fuzzy's point is also very relevant. Component manufacturing moved to Asia a long time ago, so why would you pay to ship all those components to America, only to assemble it on your home soil, when it can be assembled in Asia for less money, without requiring the logistics of shipping electric components around. Also, made in Asia doesn't mean the same thing it did 5 years ago... there are many respectable companies that make some excellent audiophile amps, and have proven reliability equal to or greater than the North American counterparts.

Yes it would be better if PG could still relive their glory days, but the fact is it's not an economically sustainable option. Doing what you suggest would be corporate suicide. I would rather have a shadow of PG left, than nothing at all. Let's not forget PG listened to our demands and brought back the MS "Tenth Anniversary" series... they couldn't be sold. PG even had to resort to selling them at a fraction of their cost on eBay. That was the last nail in the coffin for their US manufacturing if you ask me.

Fortunately the Europeans are still lagging behind us, because they are still willing to pay for high quality locally made products. There are brands like Genesis, Brax, Signat and Audison that can still offer you the same quality that you used to be able to get from the North American market. And there are still a few remaining niche brands like Tru, ARC, Zapco, etc. but I believe they have taken walks down the Asia path as well.

Who knows, with the recent economic crash, our society has started to realize the error of their ways. We'll see if the demand for quality, locally made goods increases, or if the allure of money is too strong for us.

bretti_kivi · Post by **bretti_kivi** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:46 pm

transport is still too cheap IMO for that to happen.

Yes, there is a lot of "local champion" here and it's very cool to read just how enthusiastic the mags and reviewers and competitors get. For some reason, Denmark is the center of a lot of this and the Germans make a lot of goodwill from their obsessiveness in many areas.

I don't really have any comments on the past, but the future relies IMO in identifying the interesting market segments and working with key opinion makers to ensure brand presence.

Bret

Post by **Eric D** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:09 pm

I am not all that concerned with PG amps being made in USA. I would like to see it, but that won't steal the show for me.

PG needs to build a non "me too" product, and that is not going to happen.

Virtually none of the original employees are left, the company sold off all its manufacturing equipment, and now all the old archive products are gone. All that is left is the name.

If AAMP thinks the PG name will help them sell more non-PG products with the PG name slapped on it, great. I think PG killed their reputation slowly over the past several years, so really it has no more brand recognition.

A lot can be said between "made in the USA", and "designed in the USA". When you have neither, I don't think you really have PG any more, you just have a logo.

bruther · Post by **bruther** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:12 pm

stipud wrote: Fuzzy's point is also very relevant. Component manufacturing moved to Asia a long time ago, so why would you pay to ship all those components to America, only to assemble it on your home soil, when it can be assembled in Asia for less money, without requiring the logistics of shipping electric components around. Also, made in Asia doesn't mean the same thing it did 5 years ago... there are many respectable companies that make some excellent audiophile amps, and have proven reliability equal to or greater than the North American counterparts.

Just to point out some facts........
Based on information obtained from IMF, ISI, IES (information on economics)

As of 10/31/2009, the US still manufactures 64% of the worlds products.
Even though products ( with a made in Europe stamp) that Jbondox thinks are so superior to US made or Asian made have many parts that were manufactured here in the US and Asia. Same goes with the actual raw materials that are used to produce these products. Much of that raw material that is being delivered to these manufactures whether its to Asia, US or Europe is coming from the same place. You will always be able to find poor quality products regardless of where they were manufactured. Most Asian manufactures have not developed the intellectual property or manufacturing processes. Much of this knowledge has come from the US . It's interesting but many of the products that Asia assembles have parts made here in the US. Again, we produce 64% of the world goods......It is ignorant to think just because a good is manufactured in the Germany that it is over engineered. This is just not so. They may be manufactured specifically for a certain market but they are not generally over engineered for the hell of it......Think of cars... Most cars in Germany are designed to be able to handle higher top end speeds......their not over engineered. Their engineered based on the market. I can find many flaws on a Benz, BMW, Audi.

Lets use some education- Perceived value is not what you pay for it: but the relative value in comparison to what you paid. The reason why many Asian made products have a lower cost is due to the cost of production ( capital/human and economies of scale for material costs) Vs the US or Europe. Not because they skimp corners. FACT: many Asian manufacturing facilities actually have better quality control than many other parts of the world. Fact: based on research from the ISI, (dated 04/01/2009 Volume 6V32 ) Chinese made products actually have a rating of 7% in end line product deficiency compared to the rest of the world that has an 11%. Much of the world holds the rational that because the product is cheaper then it must be poorly made. This is not a fact but more of a perception. The data shows that Asian products are actually as well built or better built than many goods made here in the good ol USA and Europe. There was a recent joint study done by University of Chicago MBA Booth school of business and the International Network for Economic research (Jan 2006), that they did a blind testing on many products manufactured in Germany/US/China. On average 72% of the Chinese made products had better reliability and performance than US or German made products.

My point of all this is that you will always be able to find bad products regardless of where they were manufactured. And because they were assembled in US/Asia/Europe does not ensure that all the parts were made there. This is the same for design, research and engineering.

I'm with Stipud in that I own some old School PG amps and the new Roadster amp......I can't tell the difference and I have a pretty decent ear for sound.

Just my two cents...

Currently I'm going for my Master's in International Economics......I did a recent paper on manufacturing in Asia.That's why I have all these facts.....

Post by **fuzzysnuggleduck** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:52 pm

bruther: You clearly know more about this than I do so please don't take this as some kind of macho challenge as I'm just as interested as the next guy trying to understand this...

What does the 64% refer to specifically? Exported goods in terms of value? Hasn't China been exporting more goods in terms of raw value than the USA for a few years now?

Please share some insight with me... although this thread is probably the wrong place to do it

Post by **stipud** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:12 pm

Very cool points Bruther, thanks for that.

I think the dreaded Xenon cold solder failures have perhaps given people a sour taste of asian manufacturing. But from what I have heard, they were built by a different manufacturer in South Korea, instead of the Chinese manufacturer they are currently using.

According to PG, the US-built Titanium series had the highest failure rate, and the lowest failure rate was in the Chinese built Ryval, Octane and RSD amps. So build quality doesn't seem to be correlated to where it is built, moreso who built it, and how.

Clear engineering and design specifications are likely much more important, as well as someone supervising the production to ensure that the manufacturer hasn't cut any corners in meeting the requirements. I see someone at AAMP has been posting from Guandong lately, so I am sure we are in good hands

I agree with Eric, it is still concerning that the original PG engineers have remained with Rodin, but we clearly don't know the whole story. AAMP may have hired some people, acquired some technology, etc. as part of the buy. I am sure AAMP has plenty of talented engineers of their own as well. Even then, Asian amplifier engineering has come a LONG way in the last several years, and considering the new amps appear to be coming from the same place as at least Focal and JL, I can't see them screwing it up too badly. It certainly won't be another DEI-type buyout, I can guarantee you that much.

I really appreciate that AAMP has come here to the forum and has asked us for our assistance. We have seen many of our ideas make it to their production samples already. This is more effort than Rodin and PG have shown us in the past. So I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss them as a bunch of hype marketers trying to package crap with a PG logo. If they were doing that they clearly wouldn't have shown so much interest in what we want to see.