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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:35 pm 
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The BitOne is such a hot piece of equipment, it would make a lot of sense to go in that direction. Enable integration.

Question: Where's the market focus? Do we Europeans get a look-in here?

Another comment, having read the docs on this site (sorry, my professional side getting the better of me) - Please update the feel to reflect the message of the brand. Same goes for the photos, the fonts and the branding full stop.

Bret


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:24 pm 
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First suggestion-

Dismiss any thoughts of glory, build something you would wish to own.

Make it 2 channels, from there you can add 2/4/6. Believe it or not if you build a great amp that you would personally go out of your way to buy, others most likely will too.


Think along the lines of Cadillac vs Mercedes, if you look inside and outside you will see a huge difference in attention to detail, which is why Mercedes sells worldwide and Cadillac has 3 other cars based off the same chassis which still don't sell.



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:14 pm 
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Wow, you guys made me think or trashing my Ryvals right to the trash can. :(



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:30 am 

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VW337 wrote:
First suggestion-

Dismiss any thoughts of glory, build something you would wish to own.

Make it 2 channels, from there you can add 2/4/6. Believe it or not if you build a great amp that you would personally go out of your way to buy, others most likely will too.


Think along the lines of Cadillac vs Mercedes, if you look inside and outside you will see a huge difference in attention to detail, which is why Mercedes sells worldwide and Cadillac has 3 other cars based off the same chassis which still don't sell.


damn... GM is trying to force feed us a caddy dealership... I hope not! Bentley Bentley Bentley!!!!



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:37 am 
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jbondox wrote:
damn... GM is trying to force feed us a caddy dealership... I hope not! Bentley Bentley Bentley!!!!


Honestly almost anything but American brands cars would be acceptable, but have you seen the new Bentley they're trying to squeeze out? It is almost cute by the benchmarks they have sent over, they're shooting for an affordable car...does not bode well.

now you have Germans there already, get a Brit (technically Bentley is but it is still German under the skin) or Italian. Something different say Alfa or Maserati, Aston.



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:58 pm 
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but I thought maserti (well last 5 maybe 10 yrs) was being built and well owned by ferrari so that would make them Italian then right VW :wink:



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:17 pm 
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? If you want to make them stare, go get a Skoda Superb Estate when they're out. Trunk room without end and interior quality that's pretty damned cool. Or a Yeti :)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:38 pm 
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Irongoats wrote:
Wow, you guys made me think or trashing my Ryvals right to the trash can. :(


dont let em get to you. the ryvals are way more potent then a lot give them credit for. a lower end PG amp is still better then half the amps out there



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:29 pm 
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Bfowler wrote:
Irongoats wrote:
Wow, you guys made me think or trashing my Ryvals right to the trash can. :(


dont let em get to you. the ryvals are way more potent then a lot give them credit for. a lower end PG amp is still better then half the amps out there


2nd that. Ryval may not be a MS amp, but it's still better than a Pyramid or Pyle of crap. Cheaper too.



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:53 am 
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Ryval amps are solid, electrically very well done.

Some guys don't like Ryval because the name tends to overshadow Phoenix Gold. I can understand its a little confusing.



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:16 am 
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MW3 wrote:
Ryval amps are solid, electrically very well done.

Some guys don't like Ryval because the name tends to overshadow Phoenix Gold. I can understand its a little confusing.


I venture to say that it's the cross on the amp and not the name that most don't care for. Sure it's made overseas and is the entry level gear but it's the cross that has me shy. I might just have to grab a couple at F&F to see what they sound like..... :hmm:



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:28 am 
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I knew Ryvals were entry level going in so I got them while I was searching for a new brand and I've been impressed. Was going to go next level but now I'm going to wait until next year to see what's coming out.



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:04 pm 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

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MW3 wrote:
Ryval amps are solid, electrically very well done.

Some guys don't like Ryval because the name tends to overshadow Phoenix Gold. I can understand its a little confusing.


I would call the mps and m series solid and well done electrically, the ZPA and ZX line maybe just half a step under the m series but still well above the competition which is what I expect from PG. IF you want me to lower my expectations and start thinking of ryval on the same lines I think you are going to have a tough sale ahead of you. I think the industry has lowered its standards of good/better/best and it sounds as though you might have lowered your standards as well.

if the ryval amps are now the baseline of solid, and well done, please tell me that the new amps are going to be uber duper well done and built like tanks or I might have to start looking at other lines that have not lowered their standards.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:16 pm 
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what do you define as "SOLID" you have to WORK to blow them up. they are exactly what low end (probably going to be installed by a average joe end user) needs.



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:54 pm 
Morgan @ PG
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ttocs wrote:
MW3 wrote:
Ryval amps are solid, electrically very well done.

Some guys don't like Ryval because the name tends to overshadow Phoenix Gold. I can understand its a little confusing.


I would call the mps and m series solid and well done electrically, the ZPA and ZX line maybe just half a step under the m series but still well above the competition which is what I expect from PG. IF you want me to lower my expectations and start thinking of ryval on the same lines I think you are going to have a tough sale ahead of you. I think the industry has lowered its standards of good/better/best and it sounds as though you might have lowered your standards as well.

if the ryval amps are now the baseline of solid, and well done, please tell me that the new amps are going to be uber duper well done and built like tanks or I might have to start looking at other lines that have not lowered their standards.


Its a solid ENTRY line amp.

Reliable, makes excellent power. Good value for the money.



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:22 am 
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ttocs wrote:
MW3 wrote:
Ryval amps are solid, electrically very well done.

Some guys don't like Ryval because the name tends to overshadow Phoenix Gold. I can understand its a little confusing.


I would call the mps and m series solid and well done electrically, the ZPA and ZX line maybe just half a step under the m series but still well above the competition which is what I expect from PG. IF you want me to lower my expectations and start thinking of ryval on the same lines I think you are going to have a tough sale ahead of you. I think the industry has lowered its standards of good/better/best and it sounds as though you might have lowered your standards as well.

if the ryval amps are now the baseline of solid, and well done, please tell me that the new amps are going to be uber duper well done and built like tanks or I might have to start looking at other lines that have not lowered their standards.


ZPA under M series???



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:42 am 

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ttocs wrote:
MW3 wrote:
Ryval amps are solid, electrically very well done.

Some guys don't like Ryval because the name tends to overshadow Phoenix Gold. I can understand its a little confusing.


I would call the mps and m series solid and well done electrically, the ZPA and ZX line maybe just half a step under the m series but still well above the competition which is what I expect from PG. IF you want me to lower my expectations and start thinking of ryval on the same lines I think you are going to have a tough sale ahead of you. I think the industry has lowered its standards of good/better/best and it sounds as though you might have lowered your standards as well.

if the ryval amps are now the baseline of solid, and well done, please tell me that the new amps are going to be uber duper well done and built like tanks or I might have to start looking at other lines that have not lowered their standards.




whooo hooooooo! hell yeah!



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:46 am 

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MW3 wrote:
ttocs wrote:
MW3 wrote:
Ryval amps are solid, electrically very well done.

Some guys don't like Ryval because the name tends to overshadow Phoenix Gold. I can understand its a little confusing.


I would call the mps and m series solid and well done electrically, the ZPA and ZX line maybe just half a step under the m series but still well above the competition which is what I expect from PG. IF you want me to lower my expectations and start thinking of ryval on the same lines I think you are going to have a tough sale ahead of you. I think the industry has lowered its standards of good/better/best and it sounds as though you might have lowered your standards as well.

if the ryval amps are now the baseline of solid, and well done, please tell me that the new amps are going to be uber duper well done and built like tanks or I might have to start looking at other lines that have not lowered their standards.


Its a solid ENTRY line amp.

Reliable, makes excellent power. Good value for the money.



everyone has that shiet.. I am so sick of hearing it...

here is the deal,, there is no value and no perceived value on asian built audio PERIOD! So go ahead and build it and try adding some type of perceived value... I will sit back and play conductor for the train wreck


conjunction conjunction what is your function....



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:39 am 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

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solid entry level line, I guess with the new lower standards.... You use to make a few great amps that EVERYONE wanted, now that you make thousands of these "solid entry level" amps what did it buy ya? It seemed to me PG was better off serving a few then the masses but I could be wrong.

I compaired pg to a great steakhouse once. I can remember going into the stores and drooling over their amps knowing that one day I would have that big juice amp/steak with all the trimmings, one day. I knew it would be worth the wait and I was right when I got my first PG amp. But then when I had finally made my way up to the big boys table at the steakhouse I had been waiting to get into, the passed out a new menu. They still had a small section of steaks but now they were pushing burgers and they were cheaper and easier to get so everyone started buying them. For a short time they were still good, not great but good and I could still get my steak so I didn't care. But then the next year they cut the steaks from the menu completely and even the quality of the burgers went down to the point that now they are no better then the guy down the street. Now those burgers are imported beef and avialable in the froozen food section and nobody remembers what a great steakhouse use to be.

CAN'T A BROTHER GET ANOTHER PG STEAK? Not a big burger that I am told will taste even better then the steaks that I remember?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:02 am 
Morgan @ PG
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ttocs wrote:
solid entry level line, I guess with the new lower standards.... You use to make a few great amps that EVERYONE wanted, now that you make thousands of these "solid entry level" amps what did it buy ya? It seemed to me PG was better off serving a few then the masses but I could be wrong.

I compaired pg to a great steakhouse once. I can remember going into the stores and drooling over their amps knowing that one day I would have that big juice amp/steak with all the trimmings, one day. I knew it would be worth the wait and I was right when I got my first PG amp. But then when I had finally made my way up to the big boys table at the steakhouse I had been waiting to get into, the passed out a new menu. They still had a small section of steaks but now they were pushing burgers and they were cheaper and easier to get so everyone started buying them. For a short time they were still good, not great but good and I could still get my steak so I didn't care. But then the next year they cut the steaks from the menu completely and even the quality of the burgers went down to the point that now they are no better then the guy down the street. Now those burgers are imported beef and avialable in the froozen food section and nobody remembers what a great steakhouse use to be.

CAN'T A BROTHER GET ANOTHER PG STEAK? Not a big burger that I am told will taste even better then the steaks that I remember?



Reality check, PG has always built wide range of priced items.

For every MS there was a Sapphire.
For every ZPA there was a QX.
For every Titanium there was an Octane R.

I guess XS, Tantrum, M series lowered standards too. Nobody likes those amps either. ;)

You can't make everyone happy, but you need a balance of products to be successful.



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:19 am 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

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After working for a former dealer at the end of pg's prime(Ti line)I know that there have always been entry level lines. we never saw those lines at every flea market, convinence store or anyplace else that could sell them. I understand you need to make some entry level lines, but I would still have rated the saphire, ms lines above the octane and ryval lines, and xenon that followed. I think this is evident by the way you can still occasionally find saphire or xs amp from over 10 yrs ago that is still working but in need of cap replacements.

but lets also not forget that you are playing up these "solid" entry level lines, but you have nothing above them unless you count the one roadster that was put out. For them to be considered entry level, you would need to have a competition level or something that would be on a higher level then this which you do not. The roadster was a good amp and I think it would have sold more if ryval and all the other import lines you have ran over the last 10 yrs had not tainted its reputation..... With pg putting out nothing more then "solid" entry level amps by the thousands that ends up on any flea market, how do you expect the public to look at you? no different than anything else that is available at the flea market, disposable......


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:41 am 
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Technically the Sapphire and XS amps don't need cap replacements. They used better parts than the MS, M, ZX, and ZPA amps did. A new in box Sapphire or XS from 15 years ago can be installed and work great, whereas a MS or M amp from that age will likely catch on fire new in box today.

I know perceived value has a lot of impact. I would take a mint Sapphire or XS amp over probably any of the best Asia has to offer today, so it will take a lot of work to get Asian amps to win my heart.

On another note...

I like MS amps, but firmly believe the only reason they are popular today is all the limited edition variations which gained fame. Engineering wise, MS is inferior to many products on the market, then and now. The method of mounting the transistors is highly unreliable, the RCA wires are a joke, and the way the boards are mounted into the heatsink is crude at best. But these are amps which gave PG a start, so they are expected to be crude. IMO the ZX and ZPA amps are the peak of PG technology, performance, and quality (not reliability though). The Ti line is probably just behind the ZX, due to loss of performance by a bit.



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:20 am 
Morgan @ PG
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Who said we will only be making amps targeted at flea markets?

Pretty wild conclusions to jump to... :violin:

Ryval is solid entry line amp. If stating the truth is "playing" it up then so be it. But don't read so much into it.

Check back in a bit and we will also be "playing" up some more expensive and interesting amplifiers...



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:58 am 
Briaans..... BRIAAAAANNNNNNS
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another thing to consider ttocs, the lower end product lines are what payed the bills and kept a roof over pg's head so that they COULD build the higher end lines. i know its not the type of product people like us want to see and want to use. but it IS necessary to have them around IMO


even audison has the srx line, and tru has the steel line



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:35 am 

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MW3 wrote:
ttocs wrote:
solid entry level line, I guess with the new lower standards.... You use to make a few great amps that EVERYONE wanted, now that you make thousands of these "solid entry level" amps what did it buy ya? It seemed to me PG was better off serving a few then the masses but I could be wrong.

I compaired pg to a great steakhouse once. I can remember going into the stores and drooling over their amps knowing that one day I would have that big juice amp/steak with all the trimmings, one day. I knew it would be worth the wait and I was right when I got my first PG amp. But then when I had finally made my way up to the big boys table at the steakhouse I had been waiting to get into, the passed out a new menu. They still had a small section of steaks but now they were pushing burgers and they were cheaper and easier to get so everyone started buying them. For a short time they were still good, not great but good and I could still get my steak so I didn't care. But then the next year they cut the steaks from the menu completely and even the quality of the burgers went down to the point that now they are no better then the guy down the street. Now those burgers are imported beef and avialable in the froozen food section and nobody remembers what a great steakhouse use to be.

CAN'T A BROTHER GET ANOTHER PG STEAK? Not a big burger that I am told will taste even better then the steaks that I remember?



Reality check, PG has always built wide range of priced items.

For every MS there was a Sapphire.
For every ZPA there was a QX.
For every Titanium there was an Octane R.

I guess XS, Tantrum, M series lowered standards too. Nobody likes those amps either. ;)

You can't make everyone happy, but you need a balance of products to be successful.


sapphire was bad ass and the qx could not even come close to touching it.

The QX was the beginning of the downfall of PG as the direction it took with the cheap arse junk rattle amp that the QX was

octane was the too fast too furious BS amp and just like QX but more 2F2F looking

Tantrum wasn't bad, but the name was stupid... I remember telling a doctor that w will be tossing a tantrum in his trunk... freaking sad! though the amp was great because it had perceived quality and a host of matching gear like cap, fuse blocks, etc... it looked like it belonged, not just there to please someone like a 16year old kid...

XS was junk also... the type R's would from alpine would walk over it.. and I am sure they were probably being built at the same plant.. the woofers weren't too bad, but JL W0/1 level... not the W3...

And I sold and installed every line mentioned... you and Larry are friends... sapphire is no where close to what you mentioned all the other garbage to.

The industry needs to quit trying to hustle the kiddies out of their lil bit of money that have and start focusing on people who want audio and can afford it...

but wait, with sooooo many chop shops, low standards, piss poor installers, and people who think an MP3 file is SQ.... the people that can afford it probably don't want their car chopped up, or are happy with Bose, since no one in the 12v industry stepped up tosay that it should not be considered audiophile



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