New TI speakers:

[MW3]

Thanks Morgan, for the candid comments. It's nice to be appreciated. I worked hard on those speaker products lines. (And the other lines as well.) Hope they are a good spring board for you guys.

Glad the crowd was responsive at CES.

Glenn Phillips
Speaker Dude

Thanks Glenn. Give credit where credit is due! I hope all is well!

[ttocs]

I am sure that the flagship models will be just as "good" as the this line, which is just as "good" as ryval, rsd and all the other overproduced stuff.

At least there will be plenty to be found, and we will certainly be able to find a great deal on them on ebay. Hell I bet you can get one of the "ones"(which one is up to you) on a ebay fire-sale the day after they release them, free shipping.......

Voicing your opinion or criticism is welcome. Good, bad or ugly.

Spewing up worthless negative posts with no point just drags the quality of this forum down.

So you are saying that ebay will not be flooded with product like ryval was?

[Stryker]

I'm with Tom one this.... Give the new owners some time to evaluate and assess the market. they have after all rescued this company and seem to want to return it too some of it's past glory. expecting new high end gear is unrealistic after only a short time. Let's all wait awhile to see what they come up with.

[Bfowler]

So you are saying that ebay will not be flooded with product like ryval was?

he did a pretty steller job at exile not having gear leaked. i think he is up for the task

[bdubs767]

I am sure that the flagship models will be just as "good" as the this line, which is just as "good" as ryval, rsd and all the other overproduced stuff.

At least there will be plenty to be found, and we will certainly be able to find a great deal on them on ebay. Hell I bet you can get one of the "ones"(which one is up to you) on a ebay fire-sale the day after they release them, free shipping.......

love the pessimism...

I have faith in PG to put together a great flagship speaker line, look at their last one, PG TI elite, which for a non active system is better than 95% of any comp sets ever made.

As for the RSd they are the best drop and play speakers I've ever used to date and with a little tunning can sound better than your diamond hex.

[bruther]

I am sure that the flagship models will be just as "good" as the this line, which is just as "good" as ryval, rsd and all the other overproduced stuff.

At least there will be plenty to be found, and we will certainly be able to find a great deal on them on ebay. Hell I bet you can get one of the "ones"(which one is up to you) on a ebay fire-sale the day after they release them, free shipping.......

Voicing your opinion or criticism is welcome. Good, bad or ugly.

Spewing up worthless negative posts with no point just drags the quality of this forum down.

So you are saying that ebay will not be flooded with product like ryval was?

What does being sold on ebay have to do with the quality of the amp? I bought one of my Outlaw's on Ebay. Should I be worried about quality?

And overproduced is a bad thing?? Overproduced is only an issue if you are looking for the product to appreciate in value. I could see the argument, if there were a million Outlaw's (I only picked the Outlaw as it is the amp that appeals to me) produced would they still look as attractive? Maybe/Maybe not, but the majority of people are buying amps to use, not store. ...some would say that the Toyota Camry was an overproduced vehicle....does that mean the quality is dimished. No, it just means there are more of them on the road and for a cheaper price for you to afford.

Please provide some specific facts on why the RSD/Ryval/ New TI/ New R & S series are inferior products to the old amps. All I hear is that they are sold cheaper, you don't like where they are sold, the looks/the size/color/ should have 6 channel etc etc.. I'm not saying they are better or are not but I would be happy to hear actual facts (example: M series uses X resistor Vs RSD uses cheaper Y resistor).

[ttocs]

I am sure that the flagship models will be just as "good" as the this line, which is just as "good" as ryval, rsd and all the other overproduced stuff.

At least there will be plenty to be found, and we will certainly be able to find a great deal on them on ebay. Hell I bet you can get one of the "ones"(which one is up to you) on a ebay fire-sale the day after they release them, free shipping.......

love the pessimism...

As for the RSd they are the best drop and play speakers I've ever used to date and with a little tunning can sound better than your diamond hex.

see now that is optimism. I have never considered pg a speaker company to be honest. They farmed out their best line from morals mid/high level speakers and designed a cross-over to work with the different impedence they required to make their line different. The x-max were some impressive subs although cosmetically they didn't last. The only speaker pg ever made that I find myself wanting now is the cyclone. If you really want to compair an rsd speaker to a 3 way hex, good luck.

As for quality on the amp lines you do not need to look too far in the past posts to see the issues they had from Xenon on down the line. As for the overproduced nature of it then I challenge you to find these amps working 10 yrs from now, or anyone wanting them if they get lucky and do work. prior to xenon when PG had quality issues they would take care of their customers and make sure they were happy, it happens to everybody. Worst case scenario they would come out with a different version(V2) to fix something that they could not have seen happening earlier in testing. I imagine the cold solder problems on the xenon amps could, or should have been found earlier in the process and addressed promptly but when you are making a bazillion of them a month it is hard to spot.

Now again I welcome the revammp of pg and hope it goes well but with what I am seeing, or not seeing since I am not on facebook scares me to think they have not learned anything from pg's errors in the past.

[bruther]

Let's cover some of this

As for quality on the amp lines you do not need to look too far in the past posts to see the issues they had from Xenon on down the line.

This could be my ignorance but please tell me what "on down the line" means? Because it was my understanding that Xenon is the only major line to have huge problems. I hear about people blowing up every amp, regardless of manufacturer. I have not heard of any major trend with PG Ryval/RSD/Octane having major issues.

As for the overproduced nature of it then I challenge you to find these amps working 10 yrs from now, or anyone wanting them if they get lucky and do work.

This is an argument that will be had in many years. I'm guessing there has been some testing done on the new amps to address this. I don't know who could make this argument until 10 years. Am I wrong but weren't the MS/M series amps built by hand ( or maybe that was just built in the USA). If so, then I could make the case that the machine built amps are manufactured better ( not better parts but built better). This is not my opinion but a fact...a machine can repeat a process over and over with very few errors. "built by hand" is not something I'm looking for when it comes to electronics.

prior to xenon when PG had quality issues they would take care of their customers and make sure they were happy, it happens to everybody.

This may be true...I would hope that with new management, taking care of customers would be addressed. This remains to be seen.

I imagine the cold solder problems on the xenon amps could, or should have been found earlier in the process and addressed promptly but when you are making a bazillion of them a month it is hard to spot.

This has nothing to do with how many they manufactured but the actual design and testing on the product prior to manufacturing. PG is not the only company to allow a faulty product come to market......Has anyone heard of the Audison Bit One.

[dwnrodeo]

I am sure that the flagship models will be just as "good" as the this line, which is just as "good" as ryval, rsd and all the other overproduced stuff.

At least there will be plenty to be found, and we will certainly be able to find a great deal on them on ebay. Hell I bet you can get one of the "ones"(which one is up to you) on a ebay fire-sale the day after they release them, free shipping.......

love the pessimism...

As for the RSd they are the best drop and play speakers I've ever used to date and with a little tunning can sound better than your diamond hex.

see now that is optimism. I have never considered pg a speaker company to be honest. They farmed out their best line from morals mid/high level speakers and designed a cross-over to work with the different impedence they required to make their line different. The x-max were some impressive subs although cosmetically they didn't last. The only speaker pg ever made that I find myself wanting now is the cyclone. If you really want to compair an rsd speaker to a 3 way hex, good luck.

As for quality on the amp lines you do not need to look too far in the past posts to see the issues they had from Xenon on down the line. As for the overproduced nature of it then I challenge you to find these amps working 10 yrs from now, or anyone wanting them if they get lucky and do work. prior to xenon when PG had quality issues they would take care of their customers and make sure they were happy, it happens to everybody. Worst case scenario they would come out with a different version(V2) to fix something that they could not have seen happening earlier in testing. I imagine the cold solder problems on the xenon amps could, or should have been found earlier in the process and addressed promptly but when you are making a bazillion of them a month it is hard to spot.

Now again I welcome the revammp of pg and hope it goes well but with what I am seeing, or not seeing since I am not on facebook scares me to think they have not learned anything from pg's errors in the past.

So, we all know the Xenon line had cold solder issues. The ZPA line had reliability issues. ZX/Ti's were notorious for potentiometer issues down the road. M and MS series need to be recapped to safely work 20 years later, plus how many revisions have the MS boards received to make them better/more reliable? These were considered PG's flagship amps in their time, and they all have issues that need to be addressed. Basically, most amplifiers need some sort of maintenance to work properly 10-20 years later. You wouldn't run your vehicle for 10-20 years without some sort of maintenance and expect it to work properly would you? I know you've considered re-capping your Octane. Does that mean that there was a manufacturing defect that caused you to want to replace the caps? What about the tri-led's? My point is unless there is a manufacturing defect (as in the case of the Xenon's) or someone abuses an amp, it should work great for years. So far I have not heard about any RSD or Ryval issues which indicate no such manufacturing defect exists. And yes I do expect my Roadster to be working 10 years from now.

[ttocs]

wow, cap replacement makes all the old amps worthless? They are a part that wears out on any electrical device and needs replacing.

I dare to say that we will see very very few people that ever want to repair their ryval amp as I said it before and I will say it again, they are disposable. this is what happens to stuff when it is overproduced and not a quality product, it is cheaper to replace then to repair. The fact you expect your roadster to keep working would help to qualify my overproductions comments as the only reason it will be kept in good working order, rather then a ryval amp, is because of its percieved value because of its limited production. I hope it is better then everything else they have put out in the last 5 yrs, really really hope(for your sake, I ain't buyin one). It might be possible to have a ryval amp working 10 yrs from now(with a cap change if needed), as long as it was treated like a LE amp but who is gonna be that dumb?

Car audio products are often rushed to the sales counters with out confirming their operation just like the bit one. AGain I hope pg doesn't make that mistake.

[dwnrodeo]

wow, cap replacement makes all the old amps worthless? They are a part that wears out on any electrical device and needs replacing.

^This was exactly my point regarding maintenance. I agree 100%^

I also agree that someone is more willing to repair their older MS amp than a newer Ryval amp, but I don't think that has anything to do about reliability. It is more for nostalgia. People who grew up not being able to afford MS amps can now buy them for a decent price used and spend a couple of dollars bringing them back to the quality they were 20 years ago. Newer PG product is being sold at ridiculously low prices on Ebay and other non-authorized internet dealers, and I think your perception on cost to replace rather than repair might be due to these grey market prices.

It might be possible to have a ryval amp working 10 yrs from now(with a cap change if needed), as long as it was treated like a LE amp but who is gonna be that dumb?

Is it dumb to take care of your equipment? I take care of my Xenon like I do my XS like I do my Roadster, and like I have with every other PG amp I've owned (M, ZX/Ti, Ti).

[stipud]

see now that is optimism. I have never considered pg a speaker company to be honest. They farmed out their best line from morals mid/high level speakers and designed a cross-over to work with the different impedence they required to make their line different. The x-max were some impressive subs although cosmetically they didn't last. The only speaker pg ever made that I find myself wanting now is the cyclone. If you really want to compair an rsd speaker to a 3 way hex, good luck.

What's wrong with farming speakers from reputable speaker manufacturers? Clearly you don't think every company should design every speaker from the ground up? Do you understand how many years of engineering and hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars go into the design and manufacture of audiophile speakers? It's very normal in the car audio industry (home audio as well!!) to use off the shelf speakers from an OEM speaker brand and repackage them for consumer purposes. For example the Alpine F1 Status are repackaged Scanspeak Revelators, and that's definitely not a bad thing! You get a lot more speaker for your dollar, and the average consumer are none the wiser! It's only geeks like us who spend all our free time on forums breaking everything down into its base specs who really care about this sort of thing. And while we love talking raw specs, we also need to realize that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts as well. There are countless other aspects that businesses need to concern themselves with, such as marketing, cosmetics, dealer training, etc etc.

Unlike PG, which is a consumer facing business, these OEM speaker companies pour massive R&D into designing speakers, because that's their business; they deal in bulk quantities of pre-engineered speakers for repackaging by external companies. It is far too expensive for a small company like PG to make affordable, competitive speakers while doing design and manufacturing as well. I would be very surprised if PG ever manufactured ANY of their speakers in house. Hell even JL Audio doesn't do it, and you've probably seen their massive facilities:
http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/199

The RSDs are extremely well reviewed by the car audio press and many highly regarded audiophiles both here and on forums like DIYMA. If you don't want to use them yourself because of your personal beliefs, that's fine, but you have little basis to criticize them considering you have never owned them yourself. Would you go join a Rockford Fosgate forum to go complain about speakers you have never heard or seen before? What's the point? At least Bdubs has hands on experience with the speakers he is criticising, and he has lots of experience with some of the best gear on the market as well.

Let's not forget your Cyclone was not even a PG design. The guy who invented them intended that they be used to counteract low frequency noise in powerplants! PG bought the design and repackaged it for consumer purposes. And personally I have seen and heard several Cyclones, and I don't think they compare to the likes of the RSDC in SQ, especially considering the abundance of motor noise! There are many speakers on the market nowadays that can play low end with just as much forte, and much cleaner. PG also had MASSIVE quality control and warranty issues with the Cyclone... by the numbers it was one of the least reliable PG products to date. The fact that people need to rebuild them regularly should say something to you.

As for quality on the amp lines you do not need to look too far in the past posts to see the issues they had from Xenon on down the line. As for the overproduced nature of it then I challenge you to find these amps working 10 yrs from now, or anyone wanting them if they get lucky and do work. prior to xenon when PG had quality issues they would take care of their customers and make sure they were happy, it happens to everybody. Worst case scenario they would come out with a different version(V2) to fix something that they could not have seen happening earlier in testing. I imagine the cold solder problems on the xenon amps could, or should have been found earlier in the process and addressed promptly but when you are making a bazillion of them a month it is hard to spot.

We've been over this before, so I will parrot my previous argument...

First and foremost, Xenon was an isolated case. It was built by a different manufacturer than all the other PG lines. Let's assume PG had a car made by Daewoo that fell apart, and they moved their production to Honda afterwards. Honda and Daewoo are totally different manufacturers, even though they are both asian. Just because the Daewoo car was unreliable, doesn't mean that the Honda automatically is. The main reason the Xenon issues were so troublesome is because PG also had a massive distributor leak to eBay, where people bought these amps for below dealer cost without a warranty. This ended up being a huge PR flop, but was more an issue with PG's business decisions than an issue with the amps. Those people who purchased from proper venues, who had warranties, had their amps fixed for free.

PG did fix the cold solder issue after it became apparent that there was a massive problem at hand. The problem with cold solder issues is that the device seems to work just fine at first, and only fails down the road after months of automotive vibration has taken its toll. PG would have to delay their product shipment by months in order to perform this level of initial quality testing. Something like that could bankrupt a company. They definitely made a mistake, but I would say they have learned from it. When in good working condition, the Xenon line is easily the most technically advanced line PG has made to date, and I am really disappointed it has no followup model.

As for your "10 years" argument, that is just speculation at this point. However, based on how rarely we see issues on this phorum, I think RSD and Ryval gear would last for years to come. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Have you seen any "broken RSD" posts?

Now again I welcome the revammp of pg and hope it goes well but with what I am seeing, or not seeing since I am not on facebook scares me to think they have not learned anything from pg's errors in the past.

You can see the PG facebook page without a facebook account. Regardless, I think the most important thing to see is what they are doing on this very forum. They have come here to ask us, the die hard spec wanking geek fanbase, what specs we would like to see in their amps. And lo and behold, many of the things we have asked for have definitely made it into the amps! Obviously they can't bend to our wishes 100%, but the sheer fact that they are listening, and that we can see the fruits of our advice, is very humbling.

In just three months they have redesigned the old RSD and Ryval gear into a MUCH more attractive packaging, with a decent boost to their performance as well. They've added a small profile amplifier line for the people who wanted something they could stash hidden in their car. And they've also added a new powerhouse amplifier, which, regardless of being a "cookie cutter" design has been a HUGE PR boost for PG's revival. The magazine coverage and word of mouth driven by this amp is not something you can put a dollar sign on! Do you really think every 10kw amplifier needs to be unique? Definitely not! Nobody cares about SQ with 10kw, so why NOT use an existing design, and save your money to produce better every day products?

I suppose I should ask you, what do YOU think AAMP should be doing? What do YOU think is really feasible as a business?

[bruther]

this is what happens to stuff when it is overproduced and not a quality product, it is cheaper to replace then to repair.

Again, your statement that it is overproduced and therefore lowers quality isn't true. Is it actually lower quality? Are the RSD amps a lower quality because there are more of them? It very well may be cheaper to replace than to fix...there are a lot of people out there that would rather purchase a new amp than fix an Old PG. There is only a small group of us that like the performance/nostalgia of the old amps. There is a LARGE group of audio enthusiasts that think all older amps are inferior to the new products. I never seen facts to support either side.

[stipud]

I dare to say that we will see very very few people that ever want to repair their ryval amp as I said it before and I will say it again, they are disposable. this is what happens to stuff when it is overproduced and not a quality product, it is cheaper to replace then to repair. The fact you expect your roadster to keep working would help to qualify my overproductions comments as the only reason it will be kept in good working order, rather then a ryval amp, is because of its percieved value because of its limited production. I hope it is better then everything else they have put out in the last 5 yrs, really really hope(for your sake, I ain't buyin one). It might be possible to have a ryval amp working 10 yrs from now(with a cap change if needed), as long as it was treated like a LE amp but who is gonna be that dumb?

I fail to see the issue here. Your comparison is apples to oranges; the Ryval line is supposed to be a cheap, low end entry level line, while MS was the flagship. And so many people may not care as much about those amps. Does that mean they are worse? Does that mean if they WERE treated as well as an MS, that they would be any less reliable?

For an apples to apples comparison, how many Sapphire amps do you still see kicking around? Far fewer than the MS series for sure! So I don't doubt your hypothesis that the Ryvals will be as good as gone in the future. I think the same thing myself. Does that matter? We should be comparing flagship to flagship. However, RSD was only ever intended as a mid-level Tantrum replacement. And it does a great job of that, by being much closer to the performance of the high end amps than Tantrum/XS and the other mid-tier amps were. The problem is PG ran into money troubles before they could make a proper flagship Xenon successor.

Morgan has said they are working on a new flagship line. Obviously they can't just wave their car audio wand and have a new line engineered from the ground up in 3 months. The only way to do this would be... you guessed it... COOKIE CUTTER! I think you should be happy that they DIDN'T release a new high end amp right off the bat, and that they are taking their time to make the real deal.

A lot of your concern is driven by nostalgia as well. The MS amps were the ones you grew up idolizing as a kid. But you're not a kid anymore, and you can afford all of these amps now. So you choose the ones that you wanted from your youth. You should be asking teenagers which new amps they like the best, to know what is going to have the most nostalgia value in the future.

[ttocs]

this is what happens to stuff when it is overproduced and not a quality product, it is cheaper to replace then to repair.

Again, your statement that it is overproduced and therefore lowers quality isn't true. Is it actually lower quality? Are the RSD amps a lower quality because there are more of them? It very well may be cheaper to replace than to fix...there are a lot of people out there that would rather purchase a new amp than fix an Old PG. There is only a small group of us that like the performance/nostalgia of the old amps. There is a LARGE group of audio enthusiasts that think all older amps are inferior to the new products. I never seen facts to support either side.

if you are going to quote me, make sure you read the statement. overproduced AND not quality.... You can have one and not the other.

again, I hope they make some good stuff but they have alot to prove to me and I know I am not alone. I await the LE stuff to see if it is worth the time but I have my expectations low so I will not be as dissappointed.

[twisted]

I am sure that the flagship models will be just as "good" as the this line, which is just as "good" as ryval, rsd and all the other overproduced stuff.

At least there will be plenty to be found, and we will certainly be able to find a great deal on them on ebay. Hell I bet you can get one of the "ones"(which one is up to you) on a ebay fire-sale the day after they release them, free shipping.......

i see alot af negativity about PG's new stuff here and its not even out!!!
you act like you have some 1st hand knowledege of some things we dont?!?!?! PLEASE SHARE if you do..........

as stated in a previous thread.... i for 1 am very excited about the direction PG is going in new hands! i am going to be doin a new setup in my truck and looking forward to trying out the new products.

and as far as the RSD comps i have to say they have much beter sound(especialy being cheap as dirt) than my Quart Q series comps that i paid $500 for!!
i know Quarts arent the best in the world but thos Q series comps sound great but a little over priced since the RSD's have better midrange and smoother highs and were only $79.
so ant improvement on RSD's and repackaged in the new Ti line up would be GREAT!

but how bout we save the negativity for AFTER the products come out and we get a chance to evaluate them?

by the way guys is there any chance of a solid 3ch amp coming out w/ A/B/D class amps like the audison LRX3.1k ???????????

[bruther]

this is what happens to stuff when it is overproduced and not a quality product, it is cheaper to replace then to repair.

Again, your statement that it is overproduced and therefore lowers quality isn't true. Is it actually lower quality? Are the RSD amps a lower quality because there are more of them? It very well may be cheaper to replace than to fix...there are a lot of people out there that would rather purchase a new amp than fix an Old PG. There is only a small group of us that like the performance/nostalgia of the old amps. There is a LARGE group of audio enthusiasts that think all older amps are inferior to the new products. I never seen facts to support either side.

if you are going to quote me, make sure you read the statement. overproduced AND not quality.... You can have one and not the other.

again, I hope they make some good stuff but they have alot to prove to me and I know I am not alone. I await the LE stuff to see if it is worth the time but I have my expectations low so I will not be as dissappointed.

I'm sorry, here is your full quote.

wow, cap replacement makes all the old amps worthless? They are a part that wears out on any electrical device and needs replacing.

I dare to say that we will see very very few people that ever want to repair their ryval amp as I said it before and I will say it again, they are disposable. this is what happens to stuff when it is overproduced and not a quality product, it is cheaper to replace then to repair. The fact you expect your roadster to keep working would help to qualify my overproductions comments as the only reason it will be kept in good working order, rather then a ryval amp, is because of its percieved value because of its limited production. I hope it is better then everything else they have put out in the last 5 yrs, really really hope(for your sake, I ain't buyin one). It might be possible to have a ryval amp working 10 yrs from now(with a cap change if needed), as long as it was treated like a LE amp but who is gonna be that dumb?

Car audio products are often rushed to the sales counters with out confirming their operation just like the bit one. AGain I hope pg doesn't make that mistake.

...It seems, as I read through your posts, that you think that sending manufacturing overseas and producing a lot of them brings the quality down? Am I wrong? If I am, then please explain why you think the Ryval line is no good? I don't understand what is wrong with large scale production or overseas manufacturing? I'm trying to understand your point of view? I don't own any Ryval and thus have no opinion.

[bruther]

by the way guys is there any chance of a solid 3ch amp coming out w/ A/B/D class amps like the audison LRX3.1k ???????????

^^X2

[stipud]

Why not a 4ch A/B with the rears bridged? A/B is way better sounding on the sub end IMO.

Alternatively if they came out with 2ch amps, a 2ch + 1ch duo seems like it would be a lot more useful than a 3ch amp that ties you down to a very specific layout?

[gridracer]

I am sure that the flagship models will be just as "good" as the this line, which is just as "good" as ryval, rsd and all the other overproduced stuff.

At least there will be plenty to be found, and we will certainly be able to find a great deal on them on ebay. Hell I bet you can get one of the "ones"(which one is up to you) on a ebay fire-sale the day after they release them, free shipping.......

Voicing your opinion or criticism is welcome. Good, bad or ugly.

Spewing up worthless negative posts with no point just drags the quality of this forum down.

Couldn't agree more well said!

[NewOldStock]

Why not a 4ch A/B with the rears bridged? A/B is way better sounding on the sub end IMO.

Alternatively if they came out with 2ch amps, a 2ch + 1ch duo seems like it would be a lot more useful than a 3ch amp that ties you down to a very specific layout?

for me - I dig the single amp install and the class-d sub channel will allow for greater flexibility on sub choice because I wont have to worry so much about load and heat.

[twisted]

for me - I dig the single amp install and the class-d sub channel will allow for greater flexibility on sub choice because I wont have to worry so much about load and heat.

[kg1961]

nice were did you find a emoticons like that cool!!!!! I'm with you and tom a/b is so much better

[twisted]

nice were did you find a emoticons like that cool!!!!! I'm with you and tom a/b is so much better

i have them saved in my photobucket LOL

[NewOldStock]

! I'm with you and tom a/b is so much better

I agree for fronts that A/B is the preferred choice, which is why I wouldnt run a class-d on my fronts...

but for subs I dont see the problem... way less music is played through the subs so having a "warm" sounding amp is less of an issue. At least for me.

also, I have historically had heat problems with a bridged 4-channel rear - though I do admit I have never used a fan, which probably would have eliminated the problem - and the class-d would be cooler, so I wouldnt have to worry about it as much.

all in all, its just a personal preference... not saying one is better than the other for sub duty.