ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

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jamie6662
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ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by jamie6662 »

Hi all new to the forum and have a question... i have zx 350 and want to bridge it to run a Morel ultimo sc 12` 600wrms sub.
I know the amp is a little underpowered for this but its what i have for now. Im wanting SQ and i have been offered a 2ohm version at a good price wondering if i will loose any SQ over 4ohm version? And will 2 ohm have a much higher drain on cars electrical syatem/ make amp run much hotter?i know the amp can do 4 and 2 ohm and im assuming its ok to bridge channels to run either of these subs. I have read various arguements for and against on the net and come to conclusion i maybe better saving for the 4ohm, any advice greatly appreciated,Jamie
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by ttocs »

I am not sure when we started to be able to tell if an amp is running 2 or 4 ohm as it seems to be coming up more and more. I would run the amp as low as possible to get as much power out as you can but I also have yet to say that I can A-B and properly identify the 2 or 4 ohm load.
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by Kirghiz »

The amp will make 400 watts at 4 ohm 13.7v, and if you can put a clean 14.5v to the amp you'd probably see 450-475 watts. I'd say 4 ohm would be okay on that sub.
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Drock
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by Drock »

Are you sure of the rating on that sub. I am also looking at ultimo 12's and website says 1000w RMS. so the 300.2 would be working a bit hard to power that sub up. But I'm assuming a lot.
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by Drock »

Yes both the 2 and 4 ohm versions are are 1000w rms and 3000w max. So i personally would be searching for a bigger amp.
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ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by Drock »

I:)
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by Kirghiz »

There is an "Ultimo" which is 1000 rms and costs about $800, and then there is an "Ultimo SC" which is 600rms and costs about $375. I thought long and hard about both subs before getting my Ti2's. Mostly because of how shallow they are compared to most subs that can take that power.

I wouldn't hesitate to run an SC off that amp at 4 ohm, but not a full blown Ultimo.

If I ever get to be rich and famous want to run four Ultimo 10's off my Elite.1 At one ohm. Put them in a big enough box and they're supposed to play as low as a Cyclone. :twisted:
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by Eric D »

Since when do you need 1000W on a 1000W sub?

For those who may not know or understand this, when you increase the volume control on your stereo, you are increasing the signal voltage to your speakers. This increases the power, and only at maximum output are you getting the maximum from your equipment. I don't know many people who listen to their systems at full volume all the time, only "bursts" to grab people's attention. Now, your age probably has a lot to do with just how much attention you wish to grab. I am no longer all that young, so I prefer enjoying my system over getting others to turn their heads.

If you have a 1000W sub, I am willing to guess the average person spends 90% or more of their time listening to it with around 100-200W of power. This is just a guess, I have no solid numbers or statistics on this.

If you run a ZX350 at 4 ohm mono it would be close to 600W, as it is quite underrated. If you find this is not enough power, you are either quite young or quite a bass head. I am not saying either is a bad thing, just calling it what it is.

Now, if I owned a 1000W sub, sure I would not bridge a 25W x 2 amp into it for 100W. The amp would be straining, and the amp would also not have a lot of control over the sub. But, I don't think there are very many (if any) subs out there which will not sound excellent on 300-500W all day.
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by Kirghiz »

The Ultimos are somewhat different from other car subs. They aren't what one would expect from a traditional 1000 watt sub. They play fast and smooth, and they play very low. They actually sound more like a Cyclone than a traditional subwoofer. The Ultimo SC is just a scaled down version of the Ultimo, but they are pretty much the ultimate SQ sub.
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by kg1961 »

Kirghiz wrote:The Ultimos are somewhat different from other car subs. They aren't what one would expect from a traditional 1000 watt sub. They play fast and smooth, and they play very low. They actually sound more like a Cyclone than a traditional subwoofer. The Ultimo SC is just a scaled down version of the Ultimo, but they are pretty much the ultimate SQ sub.

yes but with that being said they are not any differnt than other subs they use a vc magnet ect when they play the ohms change just like normal subs and most people still don't drive there system at 100%. they can sound like a cyclone but nothing else works like one in car audio that is
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by Kirghiz »

The operative term being "most people", but in this instance the only person that matters is the OP and his listening tastes. OP has a 400 watt rated amp at 4 ohm that he is asking whether he needs to run at 2 ohm to drive a 600 watt sub, (he doesn't have the 1000 watt version) and he also implied that he might get a bigger amp later on. One can make a reasonable assumption that he wants to maximize the output from the sub. Everyone in this thread, including me, said run the amp at 4 ohm, because that amp makes plenty of power to run that sub.

I have a rule that I live by that is "don't run subs on an amp that is less than half of the rated power of the subs" because I do drive them hard, and I'll clip an amp that is underpowering subs. That's me, and that's why I wouldn't run the 1000 watt version off of that amp. Your results may vary. I would run the 1000 watt version off any amp rated from 500-1000 watts, and the 600 watt version anywhere from 300-600 watts.

The Cyclone comparison was just a comment as to how the Morel Ultimo line sounds, and was neither here nor there to the powering question.
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by jamie6662 »

Thanks for the feedback, i realise this sub is more sq than spl, back in the day i would have gone for the most bass possible but now im trying more for SQ. I was more confused wether i would loose SQ if i got the 2 ohm version and if my amp would be ok running that and if it would drain car electrics alot more or would it just be better to run 4 ohm load with less stress on amp and car electrics?
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by Kirghiz »

As far as strain on the electrical system, a lot would depend on what battery setup you have, and how many amps the alternator is, but I think you'll be fine unless you have another amp or two that you haven't mentioned.
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by Eric D »

The ZX350 will be much better off on 4 ohm than on 2 ohm. Long term reliability on ZX amps at 2 ohm mono is not the greatest.
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by Drock »

At Eric, when I mentioned earlier that I would use a bigger amp with this sub. My first thought was that the sub was the 1000 watt model. I did not notice they had a lower one. That being said the reason I believed that was I've read several audio reviews that mentions that the amplifier should have up to 50% more than the rating of the sub. It made sence to me. Sure if you cranked it, it is possible to damage the speaker. But if the amp can push that sub anywhere from easy everyday levels or very loud burps. In my mind the amp with not ever work hard and sq would be great. Anyway I have no idea what's fact or fiction. Just goes to show there are always opinions. But now I know. Thanks Eric. I'm still learning everyday.
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by Drock »

At Mike, so silly question. Are you saying that there is no difference in a sub that say has 600watt handling power and a 1.5" vc. Verses a 600watt sub with a 5" vc. Again I don't know a lot about how this works, but I assume that there is a reason Morel or Dynaudio consistently use them. Would love to know more about this.
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by Eric D »

I am a firm believer it is better to overpower a speaker than underpower it (situation dependent), I am just thinking that a 1000W rated sub getting only 400W is still going to be way loud enough for the average user, most of the time.

Look at the trends in the car audio market. Back in the 90's, having 200W of bass was pretty extreme, and those were the days of very efficient speakers. And, back then there were systems which were too loud to listen too without major hearing damage, or maybe even brain damage...

So, jump 50 years into the future. If we have 10,000W rated subs sold at Best Buy for $125, and 10,000W amps to go with them, does that mean everyone will use the stuff at full volume all the time?

I think what I am getting at is the race for multi-kilowatt amps and subs has been marketing driven, not need or function driven.
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by Eric D »

Drock wrote:At Mike, so silly question. Are you saying that there is no difference in a sub that say has 600watt handling power and a 1.5" vc. Verses a 600watt sub with a 5" vc. Again I don't know a lot about how this works, but I assume that there is a reason Morel or Dynaudio consistently use them. Would love to know more about this.
I know you did not direct this at me, but I would still like to add some to this.

Large voice coils have advantages and disadvantages. If they were great, then we would have 12in subs with 10in voice coils. Why don't we?

The bigger the coil the more mass it has, and you need to move that mass.

The bigger the coil, the larger the magnetic gap volume you have, and therefore you need a much more powerful magnet to increase flux density. Actually that is likely one of the biggest advantages to a smaller coil is greater flux density from the motor, for more control.

Big coils do mean a bigger heatsink for the coil (the former), so you can get more thermal power handling.

I personally have found that speakers which sound the best to me, and have great output, tend to use around a 3in coil. I have heard some great ones with 2.5in coils as well. Anything larger than 3in does not mean it won't perform, or won't sound good, just I have not really heard any I was impressed with which had a bigger than 3in coil.
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Drock
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by Drock »

Thanks Eric, that all makes sence. I was always understanding that bigger coils needed more power which is why I always see higher power handling ratings on them. This was also something I based my opinion on recommending more power. But I also thought that a larger coil meant greater stability of the coil.
As far as load goes, you make a good point. My old m44- m100- amps were very loud with svc subs 300watts. And know all my amps have these huge rating. I just never stopped to think about that.
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by Kirghiz »

Comparing car audio trends in the 90's to today is apples and oranges to an extent. Back then speakers were more efficient, they required larger enclosures, the amps were less efficient, and they generally had higher distortion. 600 Watts on a pair of subs was a ton of power, mainly because subs rated 300 RMS were higher end, but they had 94-95 db sensitivities.

These days the subs can fit in smaller enclosures, but because of that they are much less efficient. With efficiencies such as they are now, many of the top subs have sensitivities in the low to mid 80's, you really need four times the power to hit the same volume you could in the old days. Like you say, most people don't listen to it wide open all the time anymore, but if you want that same SPL capability, you need the higher power on the amps.

if they keep increasing the cone mass and reducing sensitivities, if we start seeing 75db sensitivities for example, I could easily see 4000 rms being commonplace. You'd have to have that to equal the output from today's 1000 watt sub. You'll note that sensitivities on some shallow subs have started getting into the high 70's already. There is already a push to make subs shallower and run in smaller boxes. It won't take 50 years. More like 10.

There was a time when I thought an M100 on a pair of 8ohm 12's was pretty badass, and it was. Now you'd just about have to put one on a mid level sub and get another to power a second one. Won't be long before alternator upgrades will be standard for adding subs to the vehicle.

That's where I see it going.......
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by zeropoint0.5 »

if you wanna stay in the zx line, a zx500 would be a better choice to drive a 12 inch 600 w rms sub....

it can perfectly handle 2ohm mono( with a 50A fuse in front of the amp)

you can use the zx350, until you could upgrade to a heavier amp. (and using the zx350 on speakers then).

feed the zx amps with a pld1 line driver up to 6V rms and the amp gain down....sound much much better
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Re: ZX350 Powering Morel Ultimo sc 12`` 2ohm or 4ohm?

Post by jamie6662 »

Hmm yeah i was starting to think that i should find a zx 500 if i can, preferably with caps replaced and in white.I will probably get a 4 ohm one i think .Im certainly learning things on here good work guys :)
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