the debate that stemed from the ti1500.1 review

[MW3]

Amplifier power output is rated at two different distortion levels, so you can make the proper comparison to other amplifiers on the market and know the actual power output when driving your system.

- "Less than or equal to 1% THD" is what we refer to as RMS power.

- "More than 1% THD" is what we refer to as Dynamic power.

In most systems a Ti1500.1 will be driven above 1% THD consistently by the end user. The higher THD of the amplifier is not audible on woofers yet the power level continues to increase.

This is not anything new. Please review:

http://download.phoenixphorum.com/Manua ... manual.pdf

Ti1200.1 - Dynamic Power is 1400 watts - RMS 1200 watts.

http://download.phoenixphorum.com/Manua ... manual.pdf

T1200.1 - Dynamic Power is 1400 watts - RMS 1200 watts.

Although I am not going to try to explain it and its a bit before my time we even provided Dynamic power numbers for MS and M series. Check the manuals.

Some of you may ask why we do not use the CEA standard, its a good question. Unfortunately, the CEA standard does not work well for amplifiers that make big power into low impedance loads aka PG monoblocks. For example, in the article it states the CEA-2006 power at 4 ohm is 484 watts, which doesn't reflect the real output of the amplifier.

Keep in mind, our power ratings are conservative and reasonable. Read thru Eric's or this review and you will find they consistently do more power than we rate them at.

[randy8876]

Why not rate the amps at 5% THD like the old swap meet Rockwood amps?

I highly doubt PG will ever make low THD (.007%) amps again. The excuses will fly (it's a class D sacrifice- how does JL not have that sacrifice on their HD amps?), but in the end the market has changed. People want bling and big numbers.

In my work place there are 4 people that are into car audio. The other 3 guys only know that more watts=more sound. That is all that matters. They only want to buy new, mega-watt systems because anything else is not cool enough. They know nothing of THD or wiring at lower impedances to drive more power from an amp. A PG M25 is the same as a Jenson radio rated at 25w per channel. And one of them had never heard the phrase "sound quality" in reference to car audio. This is the market PG is after. It's the majority.

I was on the old PG forum before it went away. One of the company reps was asked why PG stopped producing top notch American made amps- their answer was the most honest thing I've ever heard from a company. "Our car audio buyers do not have the discerning ears that our home audio buyers have and there is no need to have that high of a standard". About a week later the site went down. I doubt we'll see honesty like that again.

Thinking PG will be revived into the old quality it was is like performing CPR on a rotten corpse. Just give up and move on, it's dead and gone already.

[MW3]

Randy,

Baseline THD for the Ti800.4 and Ti600.4 ranges from .002% to .005%. Ti2500.1 and Ti1500.1 are around .02% due to the class D design.

I would be happy to post the audio precision measurements. In fact, the measurements were prepared by the same engineer who designed the M25.

We understand we can't make everyone happy, but I would suggest you actually try the product first before jumping to conclusions.

Don't take my word for it. But there some old school guys (Eric D) that know amplifiers very well. They have gone through the new product with a fine tooth comb and really like what they see and hear.

[Bfowler]

this might be more of a technology question. manual states 900 rms, tester got 867. yet @1ohm its rated at 1250, and they got 1368. how could it exceed the 1ohm rating by more then 100 watts, yet fall short of the 2ohm rating? (and not the at that point 33 watts is gonna break the deal, but still curious)


and randy. i know we have a soft spot for old pg, but we have hashed out the old vs new many times. if you read one of the threads there are many valid points as to why hope for new pg isnt lost!

[Rold Gold]

Thinking PG will be revived into the old quality it was is like performing CPR on a rotten corpse. Just give up and move on, it's dead and gone already.

That is an ignorant statement Randy.........especially here.

True is the statement that the "OLD PG is gone" but as the years have passed technology has grown. I'd bet you couldn't tell the difference between the MS, Ti and NEW Ti lines in a blind hearing test..... I know I can't and I like to think that over the last 15 years I've heard my fair share of systems done using both older lines....
My fav is the M series line and I can't say that they sound better or than anything PG makes today.... Although I'd like to.

[MW3]

Brian,

Good question, when we measure Ti1500.1 on our bench we get just over 900 watts at 1% THD.

Garry (who has a killer testing setup BTW) uses a different filter to block out the high frequency switching noise for Class D amps.

Sometimes this can effect THD levels at different impedance, this is what we think the difference in power output was.

Ti1500.1 really wants a 1 ohm load anyway. Load her down!

[randy8876]

Randy,

Baseline THD for the Ti800.4 and Ti600.4 ranges from .002% to .005%. Ti2500.1 and Ti1500.1 are around .02% due to the class D design. I would be happy to post the audio precision measurements. In fact, the measurements were prepared by the same engineer who designed the M25.

You say that the Ti1500.1 is rated at .02% THD, yet these tests were done at 1% THD (50 times the distortion level) and yet the amplifier factory specs were barely achieved. I would think at 50 times THD we would have seen mind blowing results.....

We understand we can't make everyone happy, but I would suggest you actually try the product first before jumping to conclusions.

Don't take my word for it. But there some old school guys (Eric D) that know amplifiers very well. They have gone through the new product with a fine tooth comb and really like what they see and hear.

As I stated, the direction PG has gone is to cater to the majority. PG is a business and if it wants to expand and create more profits it needs to cater to that crowd. There are companies that choose to do otherwise (like Krell- home audio). They sacrifice growth in favor of having a top notch premium product. But the prices for premium gear are high, and you lose a lot of sales.

As far as jumping to conclusions: Please don't fault the negative comments unless you're willing to fault the positive ones. Would you also be willing to respond to every positive comment with "I would suggest you actually try the product first before jumping to conclusions"?

I'll admit I haven't researched the new PG line up enough. I've read reviews posted here, and that's it. Is it all still manufactured overseas?

I think PG is on track to have growth. Bringing back old engineers and using the nostalgia of the old great gear in advertising are genius ideas to generate interest in your new line. But we'll see how this fares for the long run, because if we see PG amps strapped to a board at Best Buy next to pioneer amps we'll know where the standard has gone.

[Bfowler]

they already did bring back old engineers...


and whats wrong with overseas manufacturing? the quality is better and the price is half.

now thats its a discontinued product. i can bring up one case in particular.

the lsd44 piece. when it was made it Portland they were costing PG $37 a unit to produce. when they moved production to china...the cost to produce AND ship...was $9

[randy8876]

they already did bring back old engineers...

Those were two examples of what their doing to boost sales. I don't think the actions are about boosting quality, it's more of portraying an image. And it's great, because it's a working advertising scheme.

and whats wrong with overseas manufacturing? the quality is better and the price is half.
now thats its a discontinued product. i can bring up one case in particular.
the lsd44 piece. when it was made it Portland they were costing PG $37 a unit to produce. when they moved production to china...the cost to produce AND ship...was $9

So it cost $28 less to make, what type of decrease in price did the consumer get? As far as "quality is better", does that mean radio shack amps are better than JL HD series amps, since those crappy JL ones are American made.

Quality is all about the standards a company maintains in production. And if they are made in China, I'd rather skip them. Some countries maintain standards (like Japan), other maximize profits. The two are not always inclusive.

As I said before, the target crowd is a different one. The old style PG is dead, the new appears to be trying to milk that rep for all it can. Now I'm sure the new stuff is good, but I doubt it will ever achieve the standards of the old.

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

So it cost $28 less to make, what type of decrease in price did the consumer get? As far as "quality is better", does that mean radio shack amps are better than JL HD series amps, since those crappy JL ones are American made.

That's a straw man.

Quality is all about the standards a company maintains in production. And if they are made in China, I'd rather skip them. Some countries maintain standards (like Japan), other maximize profits. The two are not always inclusive.

Where a company is located has no direct bearing on the quality of goods they produce. Sure, there are trends but there is no rule that states everything made is Japan is awesome and everything made in China is garbage. When AAMP was deciding who was going to build their amps, they toured the facilities and Morgan spent a lot of time over the ocean overseeing the process and the facilities. You may not have the same standards, but it's not like AAMP closed their eyes and pointed their finger in some "Chinese manufacturing" directory to select who would make PG amps/subs/etc.

As I said before, the target crowd is a different one. The old style PG is dead, the new appears to be trying to milk that rep for all it can. Now I'm sure the new stuff is good, but I doubt it will ever achieve the standards of the old.

Can you state what standards of the old amps that you don't think the new amps will match actually are? Are we talking about specs or something more abstract?

[Bfowler]

i'm not making the connection with the radio shack gear with jl gear to old pg vs new pg? are all JL lines crap? their gear was made in the same facility as the PG gear?

quality DID improve. failure rates on ZPA and (old) ti gear were the highest of any line PG made, while rsd and ryval were the lowest.

the standards are maintained by the company that ordered the product.

also, no pg didnt pass the savings on to the customer. they used price differences like that to stay in business.

i know i'm not going to change your mind. but i don't think its fair to let you throw out generic statements like china made gear wont have the quality of a similar spec-ed american made product.


while we are on it...is car audio the exception to the rule for manufacturing? because i know on any product i can think of right now, the american made one is the one i avoid....

cars
tools
hell, even steak now

i literally can't think of any product made in America that i wouldn't try and buy a foreign made product first

[stipud]

I think you may have a skewed interpretation of just how good the old PG gear used to be. Their classic amps have always been fantastic, but I don't think they really belong on the pedestal you've put them on either. Those amps all had a ton of flaws as well! I would personally stack modern top of the line PG gear up against their oldschool counterparts any day. However, that's because I value quality engineering, good parts, measured performance and bang for the buck above more subjective things like exclusivity and prestige (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Your issues seem to stem more around nostalgia for the old niche brand, and distaste for the mainstream direction that PG is taking. Really there's not much that can be done about that. Of course their target crowd has changed; car audio on the whole, as an industry, has changed massively over the years. No longer is it just home audiophile tweakers who wanted to bring the same audio performance into their cars. Now many brands that stuck to their niche roots have failed. And you must keep in mind that PG is a BUSINESS, and businesses have to do things like appease their shareholders. If a business ceases to grow and evolve, they fail.

You can't lump all things made in China, Japan, or America together in any sense. Where something is made has absolutely nothing to do with its quality. The Chinese can produce quality amps just as well as they can produce cheap, disposable garbage. It all boils down to engineering and quality control demands. Chinese built Radio Shack amps have much lower engineering and quality control standards than PG gear, which is still engineered by the same people as it always has been. By PG's own numbers, the RSD and Ryval gear had the lowest failure rate of any PG products to date. And this was the cheap mainstream "junk"!

It's not just PG who jumped ship to asia... they were one of the last brands to do it. Most JL amps are built in the EXACT SAME FACTORIES in asia as well. I imagine if they didn't move production to asia, they would have ceased to be competitive long ago, and we wouldn't have ANY PG anymore. Also, for the record, the amps are made in Korea, not China

It's very clear to me that AAMP isn't trying to pull the wool over our eyes, and trying to pass off junk disguised as the gear we used to know and love. That has happened to most of the niche brands that went out of business, e.g. soundstream, ppi, etc. But since they've bought out the brand, they've already produced three new amp lines, and they've been more active on the forum than PG has been in the last 5 years! They asked US what WE wanted to see in these amps. While it's not exactly the niche audiophile gear we were asking for, a ton of our suggestions did make it in and that gives me the warm and fuzzies!

Morgan is right, you should check out the new gear some more before you pass judgement. Personally I am disappinted that PASMAG only ever reviewed the Class-D boomer amps, because I am way more interested in the A/B multi-channels. This is more the kind of review I look at when I go to buy an amp:
http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html

If you actually compare more objective standards like measurements, parts and circuit topologies the new stuff is every bit as good, if not better in many areas, compared to the old gear.

[randy8876]

Randy,
Baseline THD for the Ti800.4 and Ti600.4 ranges from .002% to .005%. Ti2500.1 and Ti1500.1 are around .02% due to the class D design. I would be happy to post the audio precision measurements. In fact, the measurements were prepared by the same engineer who designed the M25.

You say that the Ti1500.1 is rated at .02% THD, yet these tests were done at 1% THD (50 times the distortion level) and yet the amplifier factory specs were barely achieved. I would think at 50 times THD we would have seen mind blowing results.....

How did the M series amps fare when tested? Did the M100 just barely squeeze out 100 watts per channel at 50 times it's rated distortion?

Bfowler said that goiing overseas improved quality. Bust on him for saying it. I don't wanna buy the Chinese products for my own reasons, I don't think it's morally correct and I don't have a ton of faith in their standards.

i don't think its fair to let you throw out generic statements like china made gear wont have the quality of a similar spec-ed american made product"

...overseas manufacturing? the quality is better and the price is half."

I guess fair goes only one way for you. Nice to see you apply a set of standards.


The Ti1500.1 amp is overrated by the PG specs. This posted testing of the amp proves it can't achieve as advertised. People are celebrating the total watts (since watts are all that matters) and ignoring the distortion rates that don't match up. Change the specs on the box to something legitimate (like increase THD to 1% or decrease total power to what it measures at .02% THD) and you'll be on track to making PG an honest and decent company again.

Or, cater to the new generation of buyers. That is the largest market and their standards are about as flexible as a wet noodle. PG is a business (I've said numerous times) and the new standard is mass production, trandy clever advertising and high power ratings.

But I don't believe they will go down the path of honesty and quality. It's not what their buyers demand.

[MW3]

I think Stupid and Brian hit the nail on the head.

Couple notes:

Ti and S amplifiers are made in Korea. R in China.

We chose our Korean manufacturing facility as its specifically setup for low quantity and high powered car amplifiers perfect for Ti and Limited Edition amplifiers. Not just anyone can build a 12,000 watt amplifier or even a Ti2500.1. Audio precision testing equipment and 2000 amp power suppliers do not grow on trees.

They don't build hair dryers, laser pens or DVD players, only high end car amplifiers. Its a small but very tight run production line of about 8 technicians on the line, each technician has an average of 10 years experience building and testing amplifiers! We train them on the assembly and testing methods according to our requirements. In addition, each amplifier model also has its own specific Audio Precision test written for it and we still do burn in testing. Its really very similar to what we used to do in Portland, except all the fancy mechanical parts are done out of house.

R series follows similar production processes as Ti, but we have a larger production volume so China makes more sense from a cost standpoint. Again, our China facility specializes in only building car amplifiers. Also, all of our key components such as transformers, transistors, etc are purchased outside of China to avoid any surprise substitutions or counterfeit parts.

Bottom line, you can get good or bad product anywhere. How its built and tested is they key, not where.

[stipud]

You have a point, the way they rate amps has changed. I am not too pleased with it myself, since I always believed in their old method of using underrated RMS wattage and "getting more than you pay for" (of course, since you paid more for it in the first place, you aren't really getting "more", it's just placebo effect ).

In order to make the amps more marketable to a wider audience, AAMP decided to rate the new amps based on their real power levels, rather than purposely underrating them. However, that doesn't immediately make it a worse amp. If the Ti1500.1 was called a Ti1000.1, for the same price, with all the same parts, would you really be any happier? Would the Ti1000.1 be a better amp, simply by being rated lower?

[randy8876]

Most JL amps are built in the EXACT SAME FACTORIES in asia as well.

I think JL still does a decent amount of work here stateside.
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/gallery_pages.php?page_id=271

I'd love to see how the HD series compare to the best PG now offers.

[randy8876]

You have a point, the way they rate amps has changed. I am not too pleased with it myself, since I always believed in their old method of using underrated RMS wattage and "getting more than you pay for" (of course, since you paid more for it in the first place, you aren't really getting "more", it's just placebo effect ).

In order to make the amps more marketable to a wider audience, AAMP decided to rate the new amps based on their real power levels, rather than purposely underrating them. However, that doesn't immediately make it a worse amp. If the Ti1500.1 was called a Ti1000.1, for the same price, with all the same parts, would you really be any happier? Would the Ti1000.1 be a better amp, simply by being rated lower?

First off AAMP is NOT rating them at real power levels. They are being as honest as Rockwood or Jenson. I don't care about getting more than I pay for. But I would like to get what I paid for. If I order medium fries and I'm handed a medium, that's good. If I'm given a large, that's great. But if I'm given a small, then you can expect me to be upset.

Rated power at 1% and .02% are two different creatures. The Ti1500.1 will barely make it's rated power at 50 times it's rated distortion That is what you should remember from the posted review. And remember this review is suggested by a PG rep.

I would like a reply from the PG rep regarding this:

Randy,
Baseline THD for the Ti800.4 and Ti600.4 ranges from .002% to .005%. Ti2500.1 and Ti1500.1 are around .02% due to the class D design.

You say that the Ti1500.1 is rated at .02% THD, yet these tests were done at 1% THD (50 times the distortion level) and yet the amplifier factory specs were barely achieved. I would think at 50 times THD we would have seen mind blowing results.....

How did the M series amps fare when tested? Did the M100 just barely squeeze out 100 watts per channel at 50 times it's rated distortion?

So will the Ti800.4 make 10 watts/channel at .002%THD? If it can't achieve the power listed at the given distortion then would you conside to stop false advertising?

[kg1961]

great points guys i would love to see how Tom and MX3 will come back with that. Im sure it not as cut and dry as this but we will see.
I agree that you should get what you pay for. I was a little scaried about my audison LRX amp as they have a very controlled power supply to make sure they get to the rated specs. but on that note the amount of watt rms are not huge numbers. rated at 12 volts rms and low .00%thd.

I agree you should really try something before looking at just specs to see if you like it or not. If thats the case we would all marry a porn star and forget about the rest if you like the person talking ect ect...
I was told as a kid don't judge a book by the cover...lol something like that

who really care what it is on the test and spec does it sound good???? when your friend asks that sound so good what is it, do you go into how many amp of current it takes to run and % of distortion level the amp has or it a 4 channel/mono Phoenix gold amp?great price and it works for years...

[Bfowler]

Bfowler said that goiing overseas improved quality. Bust on him for saying it. I don't wanna buy the Chinese products for my own reasons, I don't think it's morally correct and I don't have a ton of faith in their standards.

i don't think its fair to let you throw out generic statements like china made gear wont have the quality of a similar spec-ed american made product"

...overseas manufacturing? the quality is better and the price is half."

I guess fair goes only one way for you. Nice to see you apply a set of standards.

hope you dont think we are ganging up on you...i'm stoked when we can have a valid debate with someone over a point and not see it deteriorate into name calling and e-penis measuring


when i said

...overseas manufacturing? the quality is better and the price is half."

i was speaking to PG specifically. it wasn't supposed to sound like a generic statement. i am backing up my comments with facts from PG, i dont feel like i'm debating in a unfair way. failure rate DID improve. looking at the parts, design and based on my own listening. i think the xenon and rsd amps out do the M amps in every way. i really do feel they are better.

many parts that PG used to make the classic amps came from Asia anyway. i dont buy that the quality came down to only the guy (or pool) doing the soldering.



i understand that you have a preference on old PG gear, and thats awesome. their are probably 20+ reasons behind that. but i dont think that US vs Asian manufacturing is one of them that holds any water.

[dwnrodeo]

randy8876
If you're worried about 1% vs .02% THD on a class D monoblock amplifier that's putting out 1250 watts then obviously this amp isn't marketed or produced for you. That's the same as saying your 1,000 hp monster truck isn't good because it only gets 300 yards to the gallon. Yes, PG is rating their amplifiers differently and not underrating their power like in the past. Yes, the power ratings claimed is at a higher distortion level. But if you think about it, if old PG underrated their amps power claims then of course they will get a lower distortion. Turn up the power to what the amp actually makes and you'll probably be at 1% THD also.

[MW3]

Randy,

Ti1500.1 is rated at 1250 watts at 1% THD at 14.4VDC. It did 1368 in the review. Amplifier exceeded its power rating at 1 ohm by nearly 10%.

If it was measured above 1% THD it would also exceed its power rating of 1500 watts.

M100 was rated at 500 watts at 1% THD 4 ohm bridged at 14.4VDC. They left the factory doing 550 watts, 10% more than it was rated for. Sound familiar?

We even rated the M100 at 1000 watts dynamically, check the manual. This is a major stretch yet I don't hear your complaints about this.

[ttocs]

I still refuse to believe the ryval and xenon and all the newer amps had a lower failure rate then the old stuff. They just became disposable when they went offshore so no one wants to replace them since we can have a new on built and shipped for $9.

I buld this argument on the posts that are on this forum alone. How often do you see people wanting to repair their xenon and ryval amps? All the time I have been on there th only qustion on xenon is if was the cold solder run and that was not repairable. have only seen on post of someone wanting to repair either of those and I do not believe its because the 0.'s, M or MS amps were built worse they are just used more often, longer and harder then any ryval amp will ever do.

Now I too miss the made in america badge but it is just a sign of the times. You can keep collection the good ole stuff or try some of the new stuff, but thats about your only choice.

[AAMP217]

So it cost $28 less to make, what type of decrease in price did the consumer get? As far as "quality is better", does that mean radio shack amps are better than JL HD series amps, since those crappy JL ones are American made.

Well from what JL says their amps and speakers are assembled in the US from imported parts. I don't mean to split hairs here but is that American made? I mean it is factory work, which is pretty uniform whether it’s in the US or abroad. Well maybe not for Nike but for electronics

[ttocs]

So it cost $28 less to make, what type of decrease in price did the consumer get? As far as "quality is better", does that mean radio shack amps are better than JL HD series amps, since those crappy JL ones are American made.

Well from what JL says their amps and speakers are assembled in the US from imported parts. I don't mean to split hairs here but is that American made? I mean it is factory work, which is pretty uniform whether it’s in the US or abroad. Well maybe not for Nike but for electronics

ah now cut that shit out you know what we mean. If we cannot get 100% of every peice to be made from a source in the US. Don't take it down that road that we will nitpick if the resistors are made in korea as you know what we mean.

[randy8876]

Randy,

Ti1500.1 is rated at 1250 watts at 1% THD at 14.4VDC. It did 1368 in the review. Amplifier exceeded its power rating at 1 ohm by nearly 10%.

If it was measured above 1% THD it would also exceed its power rating of 1500 watts.

M100 was rated at 500 watts at 1% THD 4 ohm bridged at 14.4VDC. They left the factory doing 550 watts, 10% more than it was rated for. Sound familiar?

We even rated the M100 at 1000 watts dynamically, check the manual. This is a major stretch yet I don't hear your complaints about this.

Sorry, I was confused. Something led me to believe this amp was rated by PG to be .02% THD...

Randy,
Baseline THD for the Ti800.4 and Ti600.4 ranges from .002% to .005%. Ti2500.1 and Ti1500.1 are around .02% due to the class D design.

But if it's a 1% THD item, then the test shows that it can achieve what you say.

Now the JL HD750/1 is rated for 750w at .03% THD with a S/N >110 dB. This is the type of performance that I would expect out of PG if they were trying to get back to their quality roots.

Now if they were trying to make lots of power at distortion doesn't matter standards I might do things differently....