the debate that stemed from the ti1500.1 review

Need help with your car stereo system? Have a technical question? Post here.
randy8876
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 5:12 pm

Post by randy8876 »

AAMP217 wrote: Well from what JL says their amps and speakers are assembled in the US from imported parts. I don't mean to split hairs here but is that American made? I mean it is factory work, which is pretty uniform whether it’s in the US or abroad. Well maybe not for Nike but for electronics
Wow...
Factory work is no where near uniform. 50% of a quality product is components, the other 50% is assembly. That's why so many companies have QA programs (Quality Assurance). If either ingredient fails you can get a sub standard product.


How often does the CEO tour his overseas plants?
A manufacturing process that is stateside will probably get a lot more oversight and thus achieve a higher quality end product.
User avatar
stipud
Voltage Ohms
Posts: 14719
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 1983 4:00 am
Location: Burnaby, BC
Contact:

Post by stipud »

randy8876 wrote:But if it's a 1% THD item, then the test shows that it can achieve what you say.

Now the JL HD750/1 is rated for 750w at .03% THD with a S/N >110 dB. This is the type of performance that I would expect out of PG if they were trying to get back to their quality roots.

Now if they were trying to make lots of power at distortion doesn't matter standards I might do things differently....
The JL HDs aren't your typical class D amplifier though... They are full range amps and don't have the carrier signal distortion that regular class D amps would have. Not to mention they cost a heck of a lot more, so it's not quite an apples to apples comparison is it?

Look at it from this perspective... AAMP has only owned PG for a few months and already we've got three new awesome amp lines. If the demand is there for higher quality items, we will get them eventually... these things just take time! Morgan has already hinted on several occasions that a line above Ti is a real possibility! How many years of R&D do you think JL has in their HD amps? They are a far bigger company with far more resources as well!
Last edited by stipud on Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AAMP217
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:55 am

Post by AAMP217 »

randy8876 wrote:
AAMP217 wrote: Well from what JL says their amps and speakers are assembled in the US from imported parts. I don't mean to split hairs here but is that American made? I mean it is factory work, which is pretty uniform whether it’s in the US or abroad. Well maybe not for Nike but for electronics
Wow...
Factory work is no where near uniform. 50% of a quality product is components, the other 50% is assembly. That's why so many companies have QA programs (Quality Assurance). If either ingredient fails you can get a sub standard product.


How often does the CEO tour his overseas plants?
A manufacturing process that is stateside will probably get a lot more oversight and thus achieve a higher quality end product.

Not only does our CEO, Directory of Product Development, Product Managers but other employees of the company travel to Asia on a very regular basis. The engineer that designed this product is so committed to the brand\product he lives in China. I mean we are only a few steps short of having the manufacturing done in the sales office.

Your JL argument (while I happen to think JL makes great products) describes the same level of quality we put into our product except for the geography.

I will also have to do some research on the exact 50/50 split of components and assembly; I would hope that engineering would make up some of that number. Also the word "probably" doesn't help the case.
randy8876
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 5:12 pm

Post by randy8876 »

AAMP217 wrote: Not only does our CEO, Directory of Product Development, Product Managers but other employees of the company travel to Asia on a very regular basis. The engineer that designed this product is so committed to the brand\product he lives in China. I mean we are only a few steps short of having the manufacturing done in the sales office.

Your JL argument (while I happen to think JL makes great products) describes the same level of quality we put into our product except for the geography.

I will also have to do some research on the exact 50/50 split of components and assembly; I would hope that engineering would make up some of that number. Also the word "probably" doesn't help the case.
How many times has the CEO been to the plant in the last 12 months?

Is the Engineer Chinese/Chinese descent? Why would he move to China if it's made in Korea?
User avatar
stipud
Voltage Ohms
Posts: 14719
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 1983 4:00 am
Location: Burnaby, BC
Contact:

Post by stipud »

randy8876 wrote:How many times has the CEO been to the plant in the last 12 months?

Is the Engineer Chinese/Chinese descent? Why would he move to China if it's made in Korea?
Isn't this getting a little personal now? What does the ethnicity of the engineer, or where they choose to live really have to do with product quality?

Something tells me you will never be satisfied no matter what we say, so I am going to cut my losses and bow out of this argument. Toodle-oo! :salut:
randy8876
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 5:12 pm

Post by randy8876 »

stipud wrote: The JL HDs aren't your typical class D amplifier though... They are full range amps and don't have the carrier signal distortion that regular class D amps would have. Not to mention they cost a heck of a lot more, so it's not quite an apples to apples comparison is it?

Look at it from this perspective... AAMP has only owned PG for a few months and already we've got three new awesome amp lines. If the demand is there for higher quality items, we will get them eventually... these things just take time! Morgan has already hinted on several occasions that a line above Ti is a real possibility! How many years of R&D do you think JL has in their HD amps? They are a far bigger company with far more resources as well!
Awesome is an opinion. They have 3 new lines, and by the looks of it they are similar in quality to Pioneer or Alpine. You're right that we shouldn't compare them to JL. PG has a top notch advertising campaign and the PR guys are pretty good to. But looking through the ads at my local car audio shop it looks like they're still riding on the coattails of the quality stuff in the 90's and trying to allude to the new stuff having the same quality.

For the people that are looking for that standard it's pretty dishonest.

The JL HD line isn't that expensive when compared to other premium products. The M100 was $630 in the early 90's. The HD750/1 is $800. If you adjust for inflation the JL's are actually less expensive.
randy8876
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 5:12 pm

Post by randy8876 »

stipud wrote: Isn't this getting a little personal now? What does the ethnicity of the engineer, or where they choose to live really have to do with product quality?

Something tells me you will never be satisfied no matter what we say, so I am going to cut my losses and bow out of this argument. Toodle-oo! :salut:
People often try to manipulate a point of view. If PG subcontracted an engineer in China to design a product, and now he wants to spin it to make it sound like "He has so much dedication he lives in China" just to lead people into a false belief.

That guy brought up where he lives, not me. Apparently lives in China to monitor production in Korea. Maybe Korea recently got relocated to China and nobody told me?
User avatar
jbob0124
Posts: 825
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:09 pm
Contact:

Post by jbob0124 »

Does any of this really matter?

If you don't like it, don't use it. What is the point of going on and on about the same thing?
User avatar
jbob0124
Posts: 825
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:09 pm
Contact:

Post by jbob0124 »

Another thing, I would put the new Ti line of amps up against my 4 zpa's anyday. I've even considered getting rid of my zpa's for the new stuff. Regardless of the specs that doesn't seem to add up in your head, In my opinion, the recent actions that we have seen from AAMP and PG that the old PG is back but modernized to today's standards. I trusted them back then, and I trust them now.
User avatar
str3atwarrior
Posts: 806
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 5:45 pm
Location: Drummondville, Quebec

Post by str3atwarrior »

F*** i'm speechless, how can you bitch soo much about a peroduct you didn't even tried?! Honestly, i ain't been there for a long time, but everything i've seen from PG impressed me to the highest point, was it old school stuff or new lines, and i personally like the way AAMP is doing things here!

Go tell any other compagny that you don't like this or that, they won't even listen to you, since they probably don't even care about it. Go on Microsoft's forum and tell them you're not happy with the way one of their software works, they will tell you they're sorry, and that's about it. I had 2 BNIB cable from Stinger, that i bought from eBay, that failed in one day. Probably not AAMP's fault, probably the way the seller stored them or anything else. Any other damn compagny would have told me to arrange myself with the seller. But AAMP's rep wanted to fix it for them, even if that means loosing money for them. Yea they don't cost much, but still they didn't even had to do this, they still contacted me to solve things out. I don't know any compagny that are willing to do this! Damn it's sometime hard to get refund on something you have a receipt for and that you bought 3hrs ago!

Anyway, as stated above, if you don't like PG, why the hell did you even came here for?
He appreciates your support but he aint beggin for it
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
Posts: 14783
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Post by ttocs »

wow, its like deja-vu all over again but I am not a part of it.

I went through this same conversation with them months ago randy. I too have decided to wait and see how it sounds, how well it holds up and if there are problems how they react to them. IT is too early and there is alot of room to grow as well.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
randy8876
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 5:12 pm

Post by randy8876 »

Wow.
F***
I'm speechless. You two are cult-like.

So criticism is not allowed? Has every person that said something positive tested this amp? But their comments are acceptable?

Maybe there should be a disclaimer that CRITICISM IS UNACCEPTABLE

Numerous companies still have great customer service. Recently I broke the speaker terminals to my 13 year old Atlantic Technology System 350THX surround speaker. I called them and in 72 hours I had free repair parts. Call up Ant at Second Skin and they go out of their way to help. I bought a Eclipse AVN-5500 last week, and the GPS wouldn't sync up right away and the shop immediately offered to swap it out, replace the antenna or I I could try a fix myself.

I didn't say PG had bad customer service. I said the amp is more similar to Pioneer or Alpine than a top notch product. If you have a problem with that tell PG to make an amp that can make it's rated power at <.05% THD.

After the posts by the two PG employees I trust them less. The .02%THD claim was misleading at best, an outright lie at worst. The other guy claims their Engineer moved to China because he's that dedicated to stuff made in Korea. Not sure how Korea and China are correlated there. Also highly doubt the statement is accurate.

I came here because I'm in the market for new amps. But PG is still not making top quality stuff. The cult followers might praise every thing that PG does, but I'm not one of those people.[/i]
User avatar
str3atwarrior
Posts: 806
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 5:45 pm
Location: Drummondville, Quebec

Post by str3atwarrior »

Criticism is ok, but just trying to put down something is just plain stupid
He appreciates your support but he aint beggin for it
randy8876
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 5:12 pm

Post by randy8876 »

str3atwarrior wrote:Criticism is ok, but just trying to put down something is just plain stupid
I posted facts. It's a 1% THD amp. That's nothing special. The market is full of them. Even the PG rep sometimes admit it's a one percenter. That's not a top notch quality product in the eyes of anyone that has high standards.

So it's okay to criticize, as long as nothing negative is said? Fascinating idea. Maybe when magazine reviews are posted you could help black out anything that is negative. Hopefully you can come out with a craftier name than censor for you actions. Maybe you could call it fluffing? Heck, maybe a fluffing column could be added to the index where only positive reviews and comments could be made.
User avatar
bruther
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:18 am
Location: DC
Contact:

Post by bruther »

My added two cents. Randy, your opinions are always welcome. I would like to point out that every point you make on "manufacturing, production, quality, etc..." is an opinion presented as a fact. I would be happy to provide "real facts" in response to any of your opinions. If you would like to argue facts and comparability about production and manufacturing in China VS US....you can look at

http://phoenixphorum.com/phoenix-gold-u ... 11554.html

If that doesn't help....state something you think is a fact about "production, overseas manufacturing, China manufacturing etc....." and I will be happy to try and help clarify misrepresentations.

Brian
1-Phoenix Gold Outlaw
1-Phoenix Gold Bandit
User avatar
Eric D
Short Bus Driver
Posts: 4255
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:50 am

Post by Eric D »

Randy, I actually did agree with some of your points, but after playing with the new products, my opinion has changed.

Power - Yes the new amps don't make any "extra" power, but in today's market, selling an under rated amp just means your average customer will buy another amp from a different company rated for more. If a PG amp were rated at say 100W, but did 200W, someone would buy a "brand X" rated at 150W and think they got more even though they did not. Do you see where I am coming from on that?

Distortion - I don't own a distortion meter, so I cannot take any measurements. My bottom line is the full range Class A/B amps from the "new PG" sound great, and sound every bit as good as an old M, or MS. But don't take my word for it, try one and do your own A-B comparison. 15 years ago in this industry, a customer might actually buy an amp rated at 0.04% THD over one made by another company which was 0.05% THD. But, who published those numbers? The manufacturer did. And they could just as easily have said the amp was 0.0001% THD and people might believe it. Either way, the old amps and the new ones are all well below audible distortion range. You will never hear the difference.

Reliability - I love the MS and M amps, but like the ZX even more. But, all of these amps have one thing in common. They truly are not reliable. I have had great luck, and no PG amp has failed me. But, I run my amps with no clipping, which is at least 3-times more conservative than your average user. If you put a ZX amp in a car, run it at 12db of overlap (I have seen people do this), and get an 85deg day, "poof" there goes your nice PG amp. If you get lucky it won't catch fire. The MS and M are worse (no fans). Most of us here on this forum treat our PG amps like gold and we don't abuse them, hence the reason they keep working well. I am confident you can beat the hell out of the new amps and they will not fail. In the specific case of the S1000.1 mono amp, it is still in my friend's car after several weeks, and he tries daily to destroy it with no luck (0.7 ohm load as well).

I really don't want to sound like another "cult member", but I am pleased with these new products, and if you actually try one, I think you will be as well.
Got "schooled" by member shawn k on May 10th, 2011...
No longer really "in tune" with the audio industry, and probably have not been for some time.
Hands down the forum's most ignorant member...
Don't even know what Ohm's law is...
User avatar
str3atwarrior
Posts: 806
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 5:45 pm
Location: Drummondville, Quebec

Post by str3atwarrior »

Ok first i'm from quebec, so i speak french, and that means my english is not the best, so maybe some things i say sounds harder/weirder than i mean them. I'm not saying you can't say something negative, i'm just saying that everything you've done right now is trying to put down the new PG.

Yeah, you're right for the 1% part, but come on, for the rest it's only personnal feelings as bruther said it.

So sorry if that's what you got from my writing, but it feels to me like everything you wrote apart the 1% part was just plain bitching about personnal matters, but again i may be wrong...
He appreciates your support but he aint beggin for it
User avatar
Eric D
Short Bus Driver
Posts: 4255
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:50 am

Post by Eric D »

Randy, here are some criticisms which I doubt will get shot down by anyone.

The new Ti amps are way to honking big! I own a car, not a land yacht. I can shoehorn 2 of these amps in a vehicle, but nothing more. PG may have their reasons for making them so big, but they are just TOO big for me.

The power terminals are way too big as well. I bet you can fit 00ga wire in them. All the Class A/B amps need is 4ga and it would be plenty.

These are just opinions though, not facts, and they should not be treated as such. Lots of people might like the big size of the amp and the power terminals.

Stipud has also mentioned he wished they had 24db crossovers instead of 18db. I also agree. This point has not been shot down by PG from anything I have come across.
Got "schooled" by member shawn k on May 10th, 2011...
No longer really "in tune" with the audio industry, and probably have not been for some time.
Hands down the forum's most ignorant member...
Don't even know what Ohm's law is...
User avatar
Rold Gold
Dirty Harry
Posts: 5685
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:53 pm
Location: Oregon Grown

Post by Rold Gold »

So................... :shifty:
We could be know on the interweb as a cult....... :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: Can we call ourselves GOLDmember's................... :pray: :clap: :batman: :spiderman: :batman: :spiderman: :batman: :spiderman: :batman: :spiderman: :batman: :spiderman: :batman: :spiderman: :batman: :spiderman:
Those tender little burgers with them little, itty-bitty grilled onions that just explode in ya mouth like flavor crystals every time you bite into one.. just makes me want to burn this muthafuka down.... Come on, Pookie, let's burn this muthafuka down!!!
todd217
Posts: 1127
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:36 pm
Location: rantoul illinois

Post by todd217 »

from the reviews i have read i think they did a hell of a job. remember its not 1993 anymore and the market is different now. keep up the good work AAMP.
User avatar
jbob0124
Posts: 825
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:09 pm
Contact:

Post by jbob0124 »

^ another cult member O:)
randy8876
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 5:12 pm

Post by randy8876 »

The target market they want is different, not the audiophiles, but just the general buyer. But I honestly think if we put these amps against Pioneer or Alpine and the listener doesn't know what's there they likely won't be able to single out the PG one.

Another thing that I think is changing are multiple pieces and the size. The guys I work with seem like average consumers, and their response to a separate xover was "What, your amp doesn't have one, man you gotta upgrade that". And a big number is all that matters. The M100 was considered to small for the one guy, since his 10's are rated at 300 watts.

The size and included xover why I'm considering the JL amps, although the price is a little scary for a 900/5. I might go with a 400/4 and wait 2 months than add the 750/1. I want the power to drive a pair of MB Quart QSD216's, a pair of QSC214's and the QSC164. I want the lowest distortion ratings since I paid a premium for my mids and tweets.

As far as reliability... I've been using PG M series amps since 1996. I've got the 3 I have now, I had a Route 66 and once upon a time I had an M50. I never had any issues other than the M25 like to blow some crappy Boston Acoustics mids I used to own. I switched to different mids and have been fine ever since.

I hope they consider a line of amps that are designed to be stuffed under the drivers/passengers seats in a car. Watch and see how the product demand shifts in the next few years.

It would be great to see PG make a line of upscale ultra premium amps in the $400-900 range. Something that offers low distortion and reasonable power. Limited enough to keep demand high and ownership kind of exclusive. But good enough to carry the reputation high.

I just don't think the Ti series is gonna be that product.
AAMP217
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:55 am

Post by AAMP217 »

ttocs wrote:
AAMP217 wrote:
randy8876 wrote: So it cost $28 less to make, what type of decrease in price did the consumer get? As far as "quality is better", does that mean radio shack amps are better than JL HD series amps, since those crappy JL ones are American made.
Well from what JL says their amps and speakers are assembled in the US from imported parts. I don't mean to split hairs here but is that American made? I mean it is factory work, which is pretty uniform whether it’s in the US or abroad. Well maybe not for Nike but for electronics
ah now cut that shit out you know what we mean. If we cannot get 100% of every peice to be made from a source in the US. Don't take it down that road that we will nitpick if the resistors are made in korea as you know what we mean.
I will do nothing of the sort. My suggestion for you with the Ti series of amps would be to buy one, test it, beat on it, measure it, A/B it or whatever else you would need to do to see its performance and if the amp sucks get your $$ back and post your findings here. Please I want some nitpicking to go on, in person, on your test bench or car to post valid arguments.
User avatar
Eric D
Short Bus Driver
Posts: 4255
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:50 am

Post by Eric D »

Randy, if you are honestly considering the JL HD series, you really have no right to be in any argument here in this thread.

How can you complain about THD levels on these amps in one hand, while in the other think a full range Class D amp will have lower distortion levels than your M series amps from 15 years ago?

Full range Class D may become the future, but is is worlds behind the simplistic design of an M series amp. You will gain a ton more power at the expense of clean output.
Got "schooled" by member shawn k on May 10th, 2011...
No longer really "in tune" with the audio industry, and probably have not been for some time.
Hands down the forum's most ignorant member...
Don't even know what Ohm's law is...
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
Posts: 14783
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Post by ttocs »

don't twist our words around. We are not complaining that every resistor was not sourced from the US and you know better then to think that is our point.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
Post Reply