Elite Sneak Peek

[ttocs]

taking the cross over out of the amp would only require a passive one inline which would bleed more power then an electronic one would. Both installing my octane and my roadster have required me to modify the vehicle to fit them in an elite too-many-channel would have to be mounted from trunk to the back seat just so that it would fit..... at least I would hope that anyone that would buy into that line would not just slap in onto the box but when an amp gets that big it really is not all that convinient in my book, just cool looking...

[Eric D]

taking the cross over out of the amp would only require a passive one inline which would bleed more power then an electronic one would. Both installing my octane and my roadster have required me to modify the vehicle to fit them in an elite too-many-channel would have to be mounted from trunk to the back seat just so that it would fit..... at least I would hope that anyone that would buy into that line would not just slap in onto the box but when an amp gets that big it really is not all that convinient in my book, just cool looking...

I think he means and active crossover before the amp, not necessarily a passive one between the amp and the speaker.

Also, taking the crossover out of the amp does not allow for any more power to go to the speaker. The 4 or 5 op-amps involved in the crossover would draw all of less than 1 watt.

[ttocs]

a cross-over before the amp will not net any more power then one in the amp was my confusion. Might be a higher quality, ya never know but the power output difference would be minimal.

[audiogood]

My sp has all the x-over in it .. so I do not even use the ones in my amps. However that was not the point I was trying to make . The point is everyone is so quick to bash the idea of an 6 ch amp but then they say to get an 2 ch and a 4 ch . Yes an 6 ch amp would be bigger .. yes there is more of an chance of ch blead through but ther is an chance of the same on an 2 ch and on an 4 ch . If space was the factor they would not even consider any of the elites amp as they r huge .. just because ppl run 5 and 6 amps dose not mean that they do not deserve to have the best amp possible made with the best parts . Infact I find the kind of thinking to be narrow minded . If Ur going to bash an amp for havving 6 ch for the reasons of Chanel blead over and size of the amp then consider the fact there is Chanel blead over in two ch and 4 ch amps as well . If Chanel blead over makes an amp junk the take all your two ch and 4 ch amps and toss them in da pucking drink . Now if size is an issue and they r havving issues with fitting one elite in there car then two elites amp,s is not going to solve the space issue now is it . A six chan amp will take up more room then one of the 2 ch elites or 4 ch elites but it will take up less space then two amps .. man wtf do you guys only do installs in Mazda mx 5 or what .

[Eric D]

My sp has all the x-over in it .. so I do not even use the ones in my amps. However that was not the point I was trying to make . The point is everyone is so quick to bash the idea of an 6 ch amp but then they say to get an 2 ch and a 4 ch . Yes an 6 ch amp would be bigger .. yes there is more of an chance of ch blead through but ther is an chance of the same on an 2 ch and on an 4 ch . If space was the factor they would not even consider any of the elites amp as they r huge .. just because ppl run 5 and 6 amps dose not mean that they do not deserve to have the best amp possible made with the best parts . Infact I find the kind of thinking to be narrow minded . If Ur going to bash an amp for havving 6 ch for the reasons of Chanel blead over and size of the amp then consider the fact there is Chanel blead over in two ch and 4 ch amps as well . If Chanel blead over makes an amp junk the take all your two ch and 4 ch amps and toss them in da pucking drink . Now if size is an issue and they r havving issues with fitting one elite in there car then two elites amp,s is not going to solve the space issue now is it . A six chan amp will take up more room then one of the 2 ch elites or 4 ch elites but it will take up less space then two amps .. man wtf do you guys only do installs in Mazda mx 5 or what .

Wow, I think you are totally missing the point. First off, I am not bashing any multichannel amp, actually I ran a 5-channel in my daily driver for over 2 years. I now run a 4-channel in it, but would be happy with a 6-channel.

My whole point is a 6-channel is not an "audiophile" product and is not seen as such by "audiophiles". I am not an audiophile, so don't lump me in with them.

High end 2-channel amps have dual power supplies, symmetrical designs, and other methods of isolating the channels from each other. I don't know of too many 4-channel amps with quad power supplies, and I for certain have never seen a 6-channel with six power supplies.

[stipud]

I for certain have never seen a 6-channel with six power supplies.

I have.

http://photo.stipud.com/v/stereo/mph6300/

[ttocs]

well, ah, point proven.........

[audiogood]

That is an monster of a 6 ch amp.... Thank,s stupid for da back up .. um I was not thinking of an amp quite that big ... LOL but that is six mono blocks class A/B in one case . I have had alot of customers with cars that have more then 4 factory speaker locations . They want to put speakers in all the places a 5 ch amp will not work for them and they already have a sub amp to drive there subs .. some will settle for an 4 ch and 4 speakers or worse just buy 4 speakers and no amp or worse still buy 6 speakers and no amp then get pissed that the head unit burns up and pissed that I would not do the install .

[Eric D]

I for certain have never seen a 6-channel with six power supplies.

I have.

http://photo.stipud.com/v/stereo/mph6300/

Maybe I should have stated "a working amp" as well...



But, point taken, at least one exists out there.

[ttocs]

I think that amp is a great example for both sides. If you wanted a audiophile sq multi-channel amp, to do it right will make them even more expensive and even bigger yet then anything most of us have messed with.

[stipud]

I think that amp is a great example for both sides. If you wanted a audiophile sq multi-channel amp, to do it right will make them even more expensive and even bigger yet then anything most of us have messed with.

That's exactly what Morgan was getting at on the last page. Would be a huge amp.

[audiogood]

Yea I see what you r getting at it . It would be an elite 4 and elite2 in one case . The thing would be like 50" long and that would be an hard sell

[ttocs]

would only cost 4-5k I would imagine......

[audiogood]

It would look sick ..

[freshkryp69]

Just curious, why sanken outputs? Why not IR or onsemi or toshiba? Arent they better quality (are sankens a good brand now)? Dont read much about or work with them. Mostly IR or toshiba..

I skipped reading & went to post when i heard it would run with a zpa..BUT..
Will it have balanced input ability?? Dual Mono?? This is a requirement for me (denon z1), it only comes alive running balanced. Also i have to run 2 zpx2's for a 3way front end (dont like built in xovers). I dont mind the space requirements and im quite happy with the results of 3 zpa's up front.. Cant imagine it getting any better!

Since the claim was made, i have to ask, are we going to see proof that the new elite amps OUTPERFORM or equal to the HOLYGRAIL ZPA?
Are they hand made in the USA? (ELITES ONLY)?

[HiloDB1]

Loving the look of the Elite line. Wonder how the new Elite12 will compare to the OG Ti12D Elite.

[shawn k]

Just curious, why sanken outputs? Why not IR or onsemi or toshiba? Arent they better quality (are sankens a good brand now)? Dont read much about or work with them. Mostly IR or toshiba..

I skipped reading & went to post when i heard it would run with a zpa..BUT..
Will it have balanced input ability?? Dual Mono?? This is a requirement for me (denon z1), it only comes alive running balanced. Also i have to run 2 zpx2's for a 3way front end (dont like built in xovers). I dont mind the space requirements and im quite happy with the results of 3 zpa's up front.. Cant imagine it getting any better!

Since the claim was made, i have to ask, are we going to see proof that the new elite amps OUTPERFORM or equal to the HOLYGRAIL ZPA?
Are they hand made in the USA? (ELITES ONLY)?

SanKen has always provided high quality semiconductors, but these particular output BJT's (2SC2922 & 2SA1216) are of very high quality! Put it this way... These outputs are "nearly" identical to the outputs used in the insane $8,000 Audison HV Venti!!!

When it comes to the ZPA's, I'm whole heartedly on your side! I absolutely love the ZPA's as well. They are certainly a testiment of engineers thinking "outside the box" and it's apparent that little was held back when designing this line. Everything about the ZPA exudes quality and power, some of which you pointed out. Dual power supplies (true dual mono output), Balanced line inputs, as well as... a fully discrete input stage (NO OPAMPS ) w/high quality Wima capacitors throughout, massive & very linear TO-264 200w 15A BJT's (12 per channel on the 0.5! ... trust me, these decade old outputs will rival the bad boy SanKens ), very good supply and filter capacitance, also dual supply rails which was a pretty advanced implementation for the era. The switching FET's in the power supply (IRF-z44) are about the only detriment on the ZPA's. Well, they're still sufficient for the design, but the intriguing part is that they can easily be upgraded to IRF-Z48 or better yet IRF-3205's without much headache ... Of coarse, one should also (as we all know) replace the input caps. Over the next few months, I'm going to be modding some of my ZPA's. And no, this won't be just simple cap replacements. These ZPA's have a lot of potential, even more than their current awesomeness, I'd like to try and expoit. We'll see how it goes!

That being said, these new Elite amps look absolutely fantastic! They make me think of the new Audison "Thesis" line (not the Venti... but the new "affordable" line), but at an even better price. I'm sure they sound great and you can certainly see the quality in parts AND design. Multiple "high end" SanKen outputs is impressive indeed! The BurrBrown op amps are a nice touch as well, but let's face it, there are many other "less known" high quality op amps out there that would perform just as well. However, I do think the brand recognition is a great selling point which maybe the marketing department had something to do with???

Someone else has mentioned it earlier, and I agree that in an amp of this quality I too feel there should be 105 deg caps on both the input AND rail caps (hey the ZPA's do ) Perhaps the location of the internal fan aids in cooling the rail caps as well?? Now I know that it's highly unlikely that the temps inside the amp will ever reach this magnitude, but when you consider how hot the cabin of a vehicle can reach in the dead heat of summer in AZ for instance (on top of the heat generated by the amp), well you get the picture The higher working temp of the cap ensures longevity and premature failure.

Never the less, I'm excited that PG has even "thought" about designing a high class amp like this in these hard times, let alone the fact that they're even going to prduce them! Awesome!

I'm also curious if the two channel is a dual mono?? (I only see pics of the 4ch.)

[Eric D]

Shawn, you make some excellent points on the ZPA. I also agree with you the power supply switching FETs are a weak point.

The other area I don't like the ZPA though is that is it not a dual mono design. The ZPA amps don't have dual power supplies. They are just one big power supply with parallel transformers and commonly shared components.

To my knowledge the only PG amps which have really been dual mono are the MS2125 sized amps (MPS2500, MS2250, etc). These amps have independent dual power supplies with their own PWM controllers, regulation, transformers, rectifiers, and other required components.

So audio separation wise the big MS amps have the ZPA beat, but I still like how the ZPAs don't use opamps. However, the op-amps in the MS amps can be bypassed, and when this is done, I think they will beat a ZPA sonically with ease.

[thedeal7235]

i LOVE that it is 1 ohm stereo!!!!!!!!!!!!! i cant wait to get one of these 4 channel once released, i will bridge the rear half to my subs( ive dont that soo many times on my ti500.4, and am ALWAYS impressed of the output at 2 ohm bridged since my subs are 2ohm dvcs wired series parr.) All 4 channel amps should be 1 ohm stereo, imho-

[kg1961]

i like that these are over built but has anyone heard them? let alone Eric would you be doing a zpa vs test?
I just hope they live up to the hype. IMO the ti are ok amp just not great or the ti of the past.

I just hope more guys can get these amps than the 2010-2011 products not many of us have any of them?

love to hear about the review if there are any so please let us know Morgan what in the works for test reports pas mag ect.

also is pg looking to find a higher end supplier in canada that will carry anything better than the lowest line?

[ttocs]

I would love to know what part of the phorum has actually heard the new gear, not heard of the gear.

[audiogood]

I am gong to gess that only pg insiders have had an chance to see these amp preform .. ppl like Morgan who works for pg ...

[MW3]

Couple general comments:

- ZPAs are great amps, but they have two major short comings we wanted to focus in on with the Elite. ZPAs are not reliable, period, the failure rate was astronomical with a wide range of issues. While no Op-Amps on the inputs is great in theory or using a PLD/TBAT, if its not driven with a hot signal the amplifier has dismal dynamic performance. Bonus round the .2 and .4 even use IRF-3205s (Eric don't beat me up that they are not To-247s).

- Shawn K pretty much hit the nail on the head regarding the Sankens. These devices are actually made in Japan. Do a little digging on the internet and you will see they are usually only used for very high end home amplifiers.

- We are headed into pre-production, we had a demo car at CES with Elite.4 and .1 for listening. I would say a Pasmag review this year is a very good possibility, we may even send one to Eric D if he has time.

- All Elite amps are stable to 1 ohm.

[oldskoolmseriesfan]

FUCK PASMAG......and send it to Eric

[ttocs]

I can say that I did not renew my subscription after the trial period. It wasn't a bad magazine but it seemed like any car stereo system they had in it was two pics, three paragrahs and then it was on to thank the suspension/wheele/tire sponsors...... The other part that was the final straw what that for the entire year I had it they had ONE domestic car in it and the rest was all tuner crap.

I second eric......