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 Post subject: batteries
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:31 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:58 pm
Posts: 60
so im sure im getting annoying by now asking all these questions and lookin really stupid but i was wondering if any1 had any suggestions for a second battery to put in the trunk 2 power my elite.1 runnin 1ohm birth sheet says 4109, i plan on having a 300 amp or so ho alternator(plan on the alternator before the battery, so im not even more upside down on voltage)

I looked at the stinger spp2150 and 2250 + the big kinetik, im open to suggestions though, (i was told that optima would b a waste for this set up though) a single battery in the back with an isolater would be preferable


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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:08 am 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

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I am runnin kinetics 1800 I think it is(big blu bastard) for the system battery and an smaller 600 for my starter

Image
Image

And that cute little itty bitty thang is JUUUUUUUUUST enough to crank my 94 mustang gt with the old 302 in it. I have a switch I can use to use both batteries to start it and needless to say the 1800 at 65 lbs I think it is, is PLENTY of CCA's to turn that sucker all day.

stinger isolator and I can't remember who it was but there is a module in there as well to ensure both batteries get fully charged(can check tomorrow if its important to you I got the batteries/isolator/module from sonic). Like I said earlier I am about to upgrade to an old-school phoenix gold 175Amp alt made by wrangler and matching it up with an offboard balmar voltage regulator(ARS-5) which can be set up for optimum charging for deep cycles as well as monitor battery/alt temp for safety.

We will let you know when we are tired of ya trust us...........



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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:06 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:59 pm
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ttocs wrote:
safety


Not really directed at the OP so much as people in general, but that word is something that a lot of people don't think about when they plan a car audio system. They'll spend $1000 on an amp or two, and then get the cheapest wire they can find to hook it up with because wire isn't as cool and exciting as an amp. But, using wire that is too small, or cutting corners on running said wire can find you on the side of the road watching your vehicle burn to the ground as you wait for a firetruck to arrive. I know a lot of "do it yourself installers" that had their vehicle catch fire because they thought they knew what they were doing, but didn't and did something wrong, used the wrong wire, etc. A lot of amplifiers will pull as much current as the entire stock electrical system, the Elite.1 in the OP will pull double or triple at full load depending on the vehicle, so you have to have a healthy level of respect for the power.

My advice is don't cut corners on wire/batteries/alternators, and if you don't know what you're doing, pay a professional installer to install everything so you know everything is done right, and it's safe. If you go into an audio shop and buy some wire or buy a component, they're going to sell it at retail, but if you pay them to do the install, buy the gear from them, and buy the wire from them, odds are pretty good they'll cut you a deal here and there to where it isn't going to cost you much more to have them install it than it would to do it yourself. Especially if you screw something up doing it yourself, buy wire you don't need, or something else that costs you money by screwing something up.

I know OP said in another thread that he lives in the sticks and doesn't trust his local installers, but I'm in the same boat. I drove over two hours to find one I trusted, and stayed in a hotel overnight while they did the install. I have done installs myself before, even for other people, and I could have done this one myself, but as much as I was paying for all the gear, and as long as it's been since I did one, I wanted it done right. Sometimes it's just what you gotta do.

@ OP With that amp I think you should plan on doing both the battery and alt at the same time. Even with the beefed up alternator, that amp is going to pull more current at times than the alt is going to produce. 300 amps is the max it will produce, but it won't do that at idle. 4000 watts divided by 14 volts is 285 amps, so that is roughly what it will pull at full load, the peaks in the bass. With the second battery it will give you a current reservoir that isn't coming from the car's electrical system that the amp can pull from even when it is pulling faster than the alternator is charging. Think of it like running water in a bath tub with the drain open. If water is draining out faster than it's filling the tub, it will eventually become empty, and that's kinda where you'll be I think. If you run it off the starting battery for a while, there is a good chance you could still end up choking the amp even with the bigger alternator after you drain it for 30 minutes plus. Especially if headlights and everything else are pulling from the same current reservoir. If you had that 1800ca battery that ttocs posted, that would give you a decent current reservoir imo.



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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:40 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:58 pm
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I will keep in mind 2 b nice till I have both,I had a local shop do the big three with sum fosgate 1/0.

So y go with the hc1800 instead of say a xs power d3100


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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:58 pm 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

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I have no idea if those two batteries are compairable I put the biggest battery I could afford into the space I had. The 1800 is a Big SOB already and any larger would have been just too much battery for me.



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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:00 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:59 pm
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My wife had this recipe from her grandmother for making salmon. She watched her grandmother make it a few times, and she had learned everything about making salmon from her. Her grandmother had this way of cutting the salmon in half before she'd throw it in the pan, and so she copied that too. One time my wife was making it and she was cutting the salmon in half, and I asked "why are you cutting the salmon in half?", Her response was, "It is what my Grandmother always does, and I am sure she has a reason for it". One day she finally decided to call her Grandmother and ask why she cut the salmon in half. Her grandmother said, "I only have a small pan and it wasn't big enough for the whole fish so I had to cut it in half to get it in my pan".

Okay, it wasn't my wife, I just read that somewhere, but this thread made me think of that. :lol:

Fwiw I have a Stinger SPP1200 with the isolator in mine, and then the OEM battery on the starting system, but I only have a single Elite.5 pulling a pedestrian 1250 watts rms. I had a battery mount under the hood that was sitting empty, and that battery barely fits in it. Might be more battery than I need tbh, but if I decide to add a second Elite.5 and a HO alternator I should be good to go. Having too much battery doesn't hurt you. It's better to have more battery and more alternator than you need than not enough.



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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:21 pm 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

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now that is not true at all you can have too much battery if your alt can't charge it. Think of your battery as nothing more then a water tank, with the water being your volts. If that tank has a bigger hole in it then the alt can fill, it will run that battery dry(slowly) but also creates an additional load on the alt and can wear it out faster. If your truck has a place to mount a 2nd battery then hopefully it is fairly set up to do it but if it isn't you can do harm to your alt with too much battery.



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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:26 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:58 pm
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That's y I was thinking stinger spp2150 or xs power 3100, bout r huge amp ratings so I figured they would have plenty head room for the amp to work easily for all those deep ass notes the elite12s put out, I also figure that with such big amp ratings those batteries wouldn't b drained as bad so it would take less time 2 recharge, I also looked at a kinetic 3800 but I wasn't sure if it had what the elite would want,


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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:02 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:59 pm
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ttocs wrote:
now that is not true at all you can have too much battery if your alt can't charge it. Think of your battery as nothing more then a water tank, with the water being your volts. If that tank has a bigger hole in it then the alt can fill, it will run that battery dry(slowly) but also creates an additional load on the alt and can wear it out faster. If your truck has a place to mount a 2nd battery then hopefully it is fairly set up to do it but if it isn't you can do harm to your alt with too much battery.


I'm confused by that logic. I agree you can have too much load on the alternator, but I don't see what the size of the battery has to do with it. If the alternator is overloaded by the audio system pulling too much current, then it is overloaded, but the load and tax on the alternator is the same if you have a 1200 ca battery or an 1800 ca. If the bigger battery gets way down and the alternator has to bring it way back up, then I agree with you, but if the alternator is keeping up with demand pretty good in the first place, then it shouldn't be an issue. Nowhere did I say having too much battery is a substitute for a HO alternator, which is why I recommended the OP wait and put in the alternator and battery at the same time.

fwiw my truck has a 145 amp stock alt and my voltage is solid as a rock at 14+ with this set up. I thought I was good there with the Elite.5 and just adding a battery, but ran it by my Phoenix Gold/Stinger dealer anyway, and he agreed with my thinking. I tend to think he'd have tried to sell me an alternator if I needed it because he'd have made a few dollars. Should I decide to add a second Elite.5 later on (I probably will if I can make everything fit) I'll add at least a 220 amp alternator at the same time.



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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:24 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:58 pm
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that last post confused the shit outta me, thats not y im back on though.

so i have narrowed it down to either a stinger spp2250 or an xs power d3100 with a dc power 300 amp alternator, i looked into iraggi(hope thats spelled correct) but cant find a way to reach them since there is no quote request or e-mail link or much of anything on the site, i also looked into i wanna say db electric and that was $700 for a 300 amp.

so those are the options i wanna go with any thoughts on these 2 monsters?


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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:51 pm 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

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145 is a BIG stock alt, most are not more then 70-80 amps so yous is 2x as big. Like I said trucks tend to have that ability to add a 2nd battery easier then a car.

Years ago I heard about a neat demonstration for this where they had a simple bicycle generator that rolled on the inside of the tire to produce the charging current. Of course they had a light on the front of it to show how much voltage it was making and it was easy to tell if the load was more on the rider. They slapped a student on the bike and sent him peddleing to power the light. As he went faster the instructor showed how much brighter the light would shine then when he was going slowly. So then the slap a small rechargeable battery on the circuit and what happens? Well of course the light lights up brighter as the energy from the battery was there at first to help aid in its voltage dips and the student didn't need to pedal any faster, all was good in the world. But it didn't take more then another 10 mins of the teacher talking before the light on the bike was now shining even dimmer then it was before although the student was visably sweating now again just to light up the light like he did before. So, how can we fix this problem? Well add another battery of course! So they slapped a 2nd identicle battery on it and again the light lit up brighter then it had been just seconds before, all is good in the world right? Well no it didn't take 5 mins of talking now before the light was now even dimmer then before all the while the student was now pedeling faster then the first time.

The battery is nothing more then a storage place for electricity/current, a big storage tank(think about a bucket of water). say your alt is the same as a 1/2" hose that is filling the bucket as fast as it can. All is good while not under load but when there is a load on the battery/bucket its the same as poking a hole in the bottom and letting the water drain out. If the drain/hole is bigger then the 1/2" hose the alt supplies its only a matter of time before you drain that battery/bucket. If you add a 2nd battery to it now, you now split that 1/2" the alt can supply between the two to fill 2x the amount again with the same hose so the alt needs to work 2x as hard to pump the water back into the bucket. Be clear that when the load on the alt increases, it becomes harder to turn, wears on the voltage regulator circuits, and genereally makes the alt get hot which is the easeist way to kill one is to cook it. No matter how much storage you add if you can't charge it, the battery acts as a load on the alt rather then making it easier anytime it tries to charge it.



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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:00 pm 
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Location: Apopka, Florida
I like stinger batts and am a dealer. But I think the xs d3100 is the top of the food chain here. I can tell you one thing for sure, they're not cheap. Check out tenney alternators or singer alternators. These guys know their stuff. I can't tell you how many vehicles I saw at sbn 2013 with xs power batts.



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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:10 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:58 pm
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i will send a request to singer tonight thanks for the opinion and for bringing other options to my attention, i found the other quote it was from excessive amperage, which i had also never heard of but was steaper then dc power.

are there any other options i should look into for alternators?


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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:24 pm 
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Location: Apopka, Florida
Mechman. Ohio generator.



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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:24 pm 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

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don't get your hopes up on a reply from stinger. When I was looking to upgrade mine I was pretty disappointed with the responce I got both from a dealer of theirs here as well as from their customer support. I went into a store willing to pay down money for some batteries and after explaining what I had and what I needed he took my name/number and said he would look into it and get back to me. A week later I still had not heard back so I then tried stingers customer support. I can't remember the responce I got from them but it really was almost as though I was bothering them and the responce I got back wasn't really an answer to my question of "What do you think would work best?". Finally I tried kinetik and was really happy with their customer service and the answers I got that led to what I choose. I mean I honestly tried to buy stinger batteries for 2 weeks, even tried to do the right thing and support the local dealer and pay too much but for some reason I really just could not get them to take my money..... So hopefully your quest will be easier then mine.



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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:29 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:59 pm
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ttocs wrote:
145 is a BIG stock alt, most are not more then 70-80 amps so yous is 2x as big. Like I said trucks tend to have that ability to add a 2nd battery easier then a car.

Years ago I heard about a neat demonstration for this where they had a simple bicycle generator that rolled on the inside of the tire to produce the charging current. Of course they had a light on the front of it to show how much voltage it was making and it was easy to tell if the load was more on the rider. They slapped a student on the bike and sent him peddleing to power the light. As he went faster the instructor showed how much brighter the light would shine then when he was going slowly. So then the slap a small rechargeable battery on the circuit and what happens? Well of course the light lights up brighter as the energy from the battery was there at first to help aid in its voltage dips and the student didn't need to pedal any faster, all was good in the world. But it didn't take more then another 10 mins of the teacher talking before the light on the bike was now shining even dimmer then it was before although the student was visably sweating now again just to light up the light like he did before. So, how can we fix this problem? Well add another battery of course! So they slapped a 2nd identicle battery on it and again the light lit up brighter then it had been just seconds before, all is good in the world right? Well no it didn't take 5 mins of talking now before the light was now even dimmer then before all the while the student was now pedeling faster then the first time.

The battery is nothing more then a storage place for electricity/current, a big storage tank(think about a bucket of water). say your alt is the same as a 1/2" hose that is filling the bucket as fast as it can. All is good while not under load but when there is a load on the battery/bucket its the same as poking a hole in the bottom and letting the water drain out. If the drain/hole is bigger then the 1/2" hose the alt supplies its only a matter of time before you drain that battery/bucket. If you add a 2nd battery to it now, you now split that 1/2" the alt can supply between the two to fill 2x the amount again with the same hose so the alt needs to work 2x as hard to pump the water back into the bucket. Be clear that when the load on the alt increases, it becomes harder to turn, wears on the voltage regulator circuits, and genereally makes the alt get hot which is the easeist way to kill one is to cook it. No matter how much storage you add if you can't charge it, the battery acts as a load on the alt rather then making it easier anytime it tries to charge it.


We're essentially saying the same thing. The battery is just a storage cell, and it still comes back to the load and the current that the alternator can produce. You need an alternator that can at the very least produce more current than the total load is pulling on average. All the battery does is create a reserve to accommodate load spikes. Any way you look at it you have to generate more power than you are using over the course of time. That's just physics and not being able to make something out of nothing. If you could do that it would solve the energy problems in the world. :D

That big alternator is about the only thing in this truck that has been a positive as far as the audio system goes though. Dealing with these space issues sucks. Screwing around with sketch up I think I just figured out how to seal 4 10's without moving the seat. Now to figure out where the amps would go......grr.



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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:32 pm 
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Stinger batts are readily available and much better tha n kinetik imo. Dont know why they didn't want to help you out. Stinger sells alts as well. I've personally installed a few. Pretty good experience overall. Took a lil work to dial them in, but that's to be expected. But I was referring to SINGER ALTS as in mike singer.



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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:38 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:58 pm
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singer is who i asked for a quote from, i couldnt find anything as far as a stinger alternator no their site just fuses and other odds and ends power stuff


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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:47 pm 
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They may have stopped selling alts. I'm not sure. Its been a while. I know they used to be built by can am.



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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:49 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:58 pm
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would an iraggi 320amp work to help feed my beast?


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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:10 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:59 pm
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thebroke1 wrote:
would an iraggi 320amp work to help feed my beast?


Probably. I don't think I would go with much less than that if you are running it as hard as I think you are though. It'll still probably drain you pretty hard even with that though. Having a volt meter in your dash to keep tabs on it wouldn't be a bad idea too.



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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:51 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:58 pm
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I'm looking in2 the rmd display just for that reason, I only plan 2 really push it @ the shop I had install everything's sound off or if sum kid thinks he is super bad just cause I kinda like seeing their grin fade and their head hang:-D, well glafs that's settled now for a battery lol


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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:59 pm 

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thebroke1 wrote:
I only plan 2 really push it @ the shop I had install everything's sound off or if sum kid thinks he is super bad just cause I kinda like seeing their grin fade and their head hang


Famous last words.



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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:08 pm 

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Point taken but I thought the famous last words where it was only @ half gain


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 Post subject: Re: batteries
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:11 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:59 pm
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Fwiw I just talked to my installer this morning about doing an Elite.4 and Elite.1 install (Heading down there Friday to see if it'll fit), and the plan would be to run either a Singer or Iraggi 265 amp alternator in addition to the factory alternator, so a dual alternator setup. The 265 amp would be dedicated to the Audio system battery and the OEM alternator would be dedicated to the starting battery. If I have money left in the budget I might bump up to a 320 amp, but we'll see how that looks Friday.



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