ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

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StillKeen
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Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:06 am

ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by StillKeen »

I have a ZX475Ti that someone has worked on before I got it. If someone has a ZX475Ti that they could pop the cover off and photograph for me, that would be greatly appreciated. I have the following two images, however you can see that someone removed four capacitors and didn't replace them. I'd feel much better having an image of the PCB as it would have been originally (I've love a circuit diagram, but I'm sure those are confidential and not in circulation). To my eyes, there does not appear to be any evidence of capacitor fluid leaking from the removed caps.

Thanks.
Attachments
ZX475Ti 2.jpg
ZX475Ti 2.jpg (157.28 KiB) Viewed 8400 times
ZX475Ti 1.jpg
ZX475Ti 1.jpg (145.42 KiB) Viewed 8400 times
zeropoint0.5
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by zeropoint0.5 »

these should be the railcaps..........there under the crossoverboard, right ?

but why are they removed and not replaced ?? a wild quess they were taken out as parts to fix another amp ???

the ps caps are still there you see them on the first pic just above the terminals.......

railcaps normally don't leak.........
StillKeen
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by StillKeen »

zeropoint0.5 wrote:these should be the railcaps..........there under the crossoverboard, right ?

but why are they removed and not replaced ?? a wild quess they were taken out as parts to fix another amp ???

the ps caps are still there you see them on the first pic just above the terminals.......

railcaps normally don't leak.........
I'm wondering that too. I've read (Eric's?) info about how it's easy to damage an amp doing rail cap replacement and that they don't leak. So it wouldnt make sense that someone replaced them, damaged the amp, and then took them back out to get their $10 in parts back. Equally, pulling $10 of caps from an amp, thus making a $100-200 amp worthless is also not sensible. I'm at a loss as to why and how the amp got into it's current state.

I have found a 2011 post here which looks to give me the cap spec's I need. Is there an accepted replacement cap for the rail caps? I have input caps from digikey as per Eric's recommendation already, and will be replacing them soon.
Attachments
zx475Tititanium005.jpg
zx475Tititanium005.jpg (58.87 KiB) Viewed 8394 times
zx475Tititanium001.jpg
zx475Tititanium001.jpg (59.25 KiB) Viewed 8394 times
zeropoint0.5
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by zeropoint0.5 »

the same original railcaps as in a zx450;

search for a model in the panasonic ha series 50V,105°C, 2200mF or more.....

for the size you have to check yourself on the what could fit............;;i think 25X35mm but i'm not sure of that........

please check one time all the via connections......via = conductivity of upper and under side of the board

if none of them is damaged you have a good chance this amp is easy fixed................
Seanram
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by Seanram »

I serviced a few zx 450 and ti200.2 they all use te same railcap.
As far as I know i still have some laying around I will measure them up as soon as i can (bought them off ebay and maybe i still have the link???).

Just for the record I use the original value its 2200uf 50V 105C (instead of the orriginal 85C).
Because caps are mutch more efficient these days the type I use are half the height.
zeropoint0.5
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by zeropoint0.5 »

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/e ... -ND/131532

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/e ... -ND/131536

depending on the space 22X35 or 25X30, one of those models will be fine.......
StillKeen
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by StillKeen »

zeropoint0.5 wrote:http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/e ... -ND/131532

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/e ... -ND/131536

depending on the space 22X35 or 25X30, one of those models will be fine.......
Thanks, that's brilliant, I'll order both sets now. I do hope it's an easy fix ...
StillKeen
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by StillKeen »

I found another similar thread, and thought I'd repost the images here, so more of the information is in one spot. Interestingly, the other thread came up with a different replacement part number. I plan to take some dimensional measurements when I use which ever of the two versions I purchased, and try to determine the maximum space available for reference.
Attachments
zx475ti%20small.jpg
zx475ti%20small.jpg (227.1 KiB) Viewed 8357 times
Powered Up ZX475Ti PCB.jpg
Powered Up ZX475Ti PCB.jpg (95.3 KiB) Viewed 8357 times
audiophyle_247
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by audiophyle_247 »

I've used these on a few 475ti's & 600.2ti's, the size is a perfect fit & you are aware you want snap in caps for the rails.
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Pan ... nvBovWY%3d
I opted for slightly higher capacitance at OE temp rating vs higher temp rating at same or less capacitance.

I picked up 3 Ti amps a while back & all 3 had swollen rail caps & signs of heat damage on the boards from abuse. Those could have been pulled to be replaced & it just never happened.
StillKeen
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by StillKeen »

audiophyle_247 wrote:I've used these on a few 475ti's & 600.2ti's, the size is a perfect fit & you are aware you want snap in caps for the rails.
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Pan ... nvBovWY%3d
I opted for slightly higher capacitance at OE temp rating vs higher temp rating at same or less capacitance.

I picked up 3 Ti amps a while back & all 3 had swollen rail caps & signs of heat damage on the boards from abuse. Those could have been pulled to be replaced & it just never happened.
Thanks for the reply. The caps you've used are 22diameter and 25mm tall (?). The one's I've ordered are 30mm and 35mm tall. Do you think a 30mm tall cap would fit? I don't really want to have to order another 4 capacitors if I can avoid it. Possibly the 30 and 35mm caps fit in ZX amps before the Ti ones, as my ZX250's don't (from memory) have a daughter board over the rail caps.

I hope that it was just someone pulling old caps and not replacing them at the time, and not someone pulling caps and finding that a ton of other issues existed ...

There seems to be a lack of clear information about components for different amps. It does sound like PG used a common part across many amps, however some amps have more space than others and can fit bigger components, unfortunately it's not that clear which amps have more space. So for ease, it seems that fitting the smaller components is the answer, however it'd be nice to go bigger when there is space. A FAQ with a table listing OEM part spec (and dimensions) and then max space available dimensions, would be very useful. It'd be pointless listing exact part numbers as replacements, as surely over time that'll change. I'll measure up my ZX, ZX-Ti and M amps when I have them all apart in a few weeks to start the ball rolling.
audiophyle_247
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by audiophyle_247 »

I can tell ya with almost certainty that the ones you ordered wont fit.
The PSU caps can be upgraded to 30-32mm without issue, but that gets them very close to flush with the top of the daughter board. The rail caps need to sit below the board & still have room for all of the parts mounted on the daughter board. A few of my swollen caps had dents from the components on the daughter board, which told me their stock height was as close as they could be.

The size of the caps I linked are a perfect fit, any larger will very likely not fit.
StillKeen
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by StillKeen »

audiophyle_247 wrote:I can tell ya with almost certainty that the ones you ordered wont fit.
The PSU caps can be upgraded to 30-32mm without issue, but that gets them very close to flush with the top of the daughter board. The rail caps need to sit below the board & still have room for all of the parts mounted on the daughter board. A few of my swollen caps had dents from the components on the daughter board, which told me their stock height was as close as they could be.

The size of the caps I linked are a perfect fit, any larger will very likely not fit.
Thanks. I'm ordering some of the one's you used now too. I'm up to $40 in rail caps now to fix a $120 amp ... Oh well, perhaps the others will fit a different amp, or maybe I can send them back to digikey.

I will start building up my spreadsheet of max sizes and minimum electrical specifications.
trickyricky
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by trickyricky »

How the heck you get up to 40.00 in caps? It only takes 4, if you order the wrong that's 8....at about 3 bucks each, that's 24 bucks.... oh yeah and the 8 buck S&H.
StillKeen
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by StillKeen »

Yeah, I got 5 of each kind (as I didn't want to find one faulty when I was half way through the repair), so that's 15. Two shipping charges too, and I added two power supply caps. It soon adds up. I'll see about returning some, but I doubt digi key do returns of small items which are low value to them.

I'll know for next time and will make sure everything I learn (like exact clearances) are put back up here for others.

If I can't return them, I think they'll fit other amps anyway, so maybe will be useful in the future.
trickyricky
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by trickyricky »

Yeah don't bother trying to return them. Mouser allowed me once even twice to return a few components but they notify me that since I am purchasing small amounts they wont be able to do any refunds in the future so be sure you order only what you need. Of course unless they send me the wrong components, lol.
zeropoint0.5
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by zeropoint0.5 »

25X30mm should fit without problems.............
StillKeen
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by StillKeen »

zeropoint0.5 wrote:25X30mm should fit without problems.............
I'll get some good measurements when I have the amp apart in a couple of weeks.

Thanks
StillKeen
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by StillKeen »

I finally have the amps and caps in the same location, so wanted to share what I've worked out so far.

1) The standoffs that hold the small PCB above the main board are 35mm high (to where the bottom of the top board is, i.e top of the main pcb to bottom of the top pcb is 35mm).
2) The upper Pcb has some components that sit directly atop the rail caps, pointing down back towards the rail caps (and using up rail cap space). These components are max 10 - 11mm high.
3) Therefore a 25mm high cap is right on the limit, but should hopefully work. I think it may push the top pcb off 1mm on some of the caps that have a part exactly over the top.

I opened up a ZX250v2, and it uses a small extra PCB to hold the rail caps horizontally. It uses 25mm high caps, but there is room for longer ones in the ZX250 (I've put a picture in with the three different caps I've got stacked onto the ZX250v2 rail caps. You can see the 30mm is fine, and the 35mm might just squeeze in.

I checked the continuity of each of the rail cap pads (measuring top pad to bottom pad. I assume there is no circuit that goes right around the board and back to this spot, so I believe I've confirmed that the via's (?) are intact.

There was no significant pcb damage at all, and the power supply caps do not show any signs of leakage (visual inspection and paper under). From this I am inferring that the amp had bulging rail caps, which were removed, but then the amp was sold before new caps were installed.

Questions:

1) do I need to discharge the caps before soldering in? I thought I read that someone used a resister across the terminals to discharge them before installing.
2) I will just be following Eric's guide for power caps to work out how to install the new caps.

I have 5 of the 30mm and 5 of the 35mm high caps remaining, but I guess I hold onto them, as they'd fit the ZX250v2. This has been an interesting learning experience so far. Thanks.
Attachments
25, 30 and 35mm long caps in the ZX250v2 to see how they fit.
25, 30 and 35mm long caps in the ZX250v2 to see how they fit.
ZX250v2 with different sized rail caps.JPG (144.32 KiB) Viewed 8260 times
I had a ZX250v2 with the cover off to check what size caps were used in it, but unfortunately they mount differently.
I had a ZX250v2 with the cover off to check what size caps were used in it, but unfortunately they mount differently.
Zx250v2 overview.JPG (169.57 KiB) Viewed 8260 times
Bottom of the PCB looks good. I measured continuity from bottom pads to the top pads. All 8 checked out fine.
Bottom of the PCB looks good. I measured continuity from bottom pads to the top pads. All 8 checked out fine.
ZX475Ti main pcb bottom.JPG (150.68 KiB) Viewed 8260 times
I removed the pcb to get access to the bottom of the pcb.
I removed the pcb to get access to the bottom of the pcb.
ZX475Ti main image.JPG (171.7 KiB) Viewed 8260 times
StillKeen
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by StillKeen »

Some further progress today, but some confusion. I found removing solder from the old caps far harder than I'd imagined. The solder wick doesn't seem to really draw it up the way I'm doing it. I found the soldering iron on one side and the solder sucker on the other worked best. I've still got continuity from one side pad to the other, so I think I'm looking good.

Now the caps I purchase, have a different style leg than the power supply caps, so they won't go flush with the pcb. Do I have to clean off more solder to get them to sit more flush, or is this fine? I ordered the same caps as suggested from Mouser, but ordered from Digikey. They're snap-in, but now I'm not sure why snap-in caps should be used and not just normal ones like the power supply?

The power supply caps looked in better condition than I'd thought (all three ZX and ZX-Ti amps I've opened up have not been able to wet paper being stuffed under them to test). Two caps had a little wet mark on their base, but that was after pulling them off ... so possibly not an actual leak.

Do I have to 100% clean off the pcb pads, or is this fine where there's some old solder?
Attachments
I think this is cleaned up enough?
I think this is cleaned up enough?
cleaned up rail holes.jpeg (133.55 KiB) Viewed 8242 times
This isn't looking right. They won't fit flush.
This isn't looking right. They won't fit flush.
Wrong pin style.JPG (155.02 KiB) Viewed 8242 times
Looks pretty good to me.
Looks pretty good to me.
Power supply caps removed.JPG (148.98 KiB) Viewed 8242 times
audiophyle_247
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by audiophyle_247 »

Those are snap in lead caps, which are a press in fit.
Are you pressing them in with any force? You won't break anything if you are carefull, but they should pop in with a little effort.
zeropoint0.5
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by zeropoint0.5 »

better use 105°C
StillKeen
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by StillKeen »

Thanks, so no matter how hard I push, the via's won't be damaged? I'll have one more go at cleaning out the holes, then check continuity again and press in the caps. I did buy one spare cap.

I've bought three different caps, and these are the only ones that fit, so going to run with these. If they don't last (as 85 rather than 105), then I'll look for a 105 version next time. I'm not prepared to spend more money until I know for sure that the amp actually works ... It might turn out that the person who removed the caps then realized that all the FET's were blown and the amp is uneconomic to fix.

Thanks.
trickyricky
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by trickyricky »

Good luck finding a higher capacitance cap than the OEM and on top of that a 105c cap. I would just leave those alone, but then again you didn't have them in the first place so the ones you went with would of been my choice.

As far as them not been flush, that's okay as long as you can fit the crossover board back to its original position (without damaging the components on the crossover board).
StillKeen
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by StillKeen »

That was my thinking too. Stock they were 2200 I think, so possibly there is a 2200 105C cap. I'm happy that PG used 85C caps and they rarely go bad (from what I've read, although on my amp they went missing). If I was more savvy with electrical components, I'd look into it more, however I'm from a mechanical background and don't understand circuit design beyond what you learn in high school.

If I can't get the caps flush, they will likely touch components on the crossover board. It'll be close. It will rely on the components not being directly above the capacitors. I'm going to mock it up tonight and see.

Thanks
audiophyle_247
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Re: ZX475Ti - PCB pictures required

Post by audiophyle_247 »

The vias on the rail caps are very stout, I doubt you will damage them but do use common sense when applying pressure to the board/cap.
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