random thought

[thebroke1]

So I have been bored @ work on occasion so I figured I would do some reading about ohms and such and all this kids shooting for like .25 ohm cause their friends say to and all that happy blah blah blah....anyway so as we know 1ohm is less resistant that 4 ohm and so forth in either direction, my question is if the elites are built as a sound quality amps built with some of the best parts you can buy anywhere why are they not built as super strong 4 ohm amps so that their thd and such are better? Is it because they use the triple Darlington set up so it wasn't an issue?

[Kirghiz]

Did you know that some of the best old amps were stable down to half and quarter ohm? These amps they make now are tame compared to the old days.

[thebroke1]

I did know alittle bout that, I lovey elite.1 it's a beast of an amp and probably the best built amp I'm ever gonna see in my little town, I know that these new amps are not the beast they could b I was justwondering why not make 4 ohm power house, u can't yell me if the elites made the power they make @ 4 that people woildnt b floored and I can't think of a thing they could say, shit on the 2 elite 12s I got they r still cleaner then any system I have heard, I just ment 2 ask y not 4 ohm tanks? And does the triple Darlington desighn make the losses that ppl say comes with 1 ohm miniscule if non exsistant? An don't let me confuse any1 the elite series is a monster that I love and will have me hyping pg forever

[Kirghiz]

Triple Darlington has something to do with the reduced distortion at low impedance, it's debatable, but the real reason other amps aren't stable below 4 ohms is because they physically can't handle that kind of load. A lot of these "4 ohm tanks" that other companies build would melt down into the ground if it didn't blow up first if you wired them to 1 ohm. It's one of the things that separates Phoenix Gold from everyone else. You can't kill their amps unless you do something stupid or you just try to kill it. That's why you see everyone here collecting the 10-20 year old Phoenix Gold gear on here. Because it's awesome.

What you are asking is more philosophical than anything though. Why settle for just a 4 ohm stable amp like everyone else builds when you can build one that is 1 ohm stable and everyone else can't?

My question is why not expand the PG speaker line to accommodate some more impedance combinations and system combinations? For example, why not make a dual 2 ohm Elite.12D so that you can put a TI2800.1 on each voice coil if you wanted. With only a dual 4 ohm option on that sub, you are basically pigeon holed into a pair off of an Elite.1 or eight of them off of "The One" if you want to power it with a Phoenix Gold product. You can't even run a single Elite 12 off of an Elite.1 because it makes too much power at 2 ohm. Why not make an Elite 10" or 15"? Why not offer an 8" or 6x9" sub of any kind? How about some 5.25" and 4" components, or a 6.5" or 8" midbass woofer?

Why not make an Elite.3 that is 2x150W at 4 ohm, 2x275w at 2 ohm, and 2 x 400w at 1 ohm, and bridges to 700w at 2 ohm, with a bandpass xover option and phase shift on the stereo channels for midbass application, and an 700w at 2 ohm sub channel? If you bridge the stereo channels you'd essentially have 700w x 2 at 2 ohm. That amp would make a nice complement to the Elite.5 as a midbass stereo amp and would double up the sub channel, allowing a combination of the Elite.3 and Elite.5 to run a single dual 2 ohm Elite 12, or if you bridged the Elite.3 you could run three Ti2 subs off of the .5 and .3. That combination would make a fantastic SQ option, as would pairing with an Elite.4, bridge the .3 and still run an Elite12 or pair of Ti2's. Lots of options with an amp like that. (The more I think about it, the more I think they should build that)

Truth is they'll probably do at least some of those things when they get around to them.

[thebroke1]

Wow u have a lot of product ideas, all of which might b cool to c but idk I think the main idea is to keep everything uncluttered per say, well that answered my question pretty well that would also explain why as stated in the other forum that my alpine pdx m12 seemed like toys compared 2 the elite.1 and it isn't even on full draw. I think 1 of the special things about the elite line is that its like a pure breed and when u have that in ur car u can't help but smile when ppl say Damn, shit when I pulled my elite 12s and my elite.1 outta there box's I grinned ear 2 ear and say this shit is minor and ain't nobody else in this whole state got anything on it. Well thx for the answer I kinda figured the triple d might have sumthing 2 do with the 1 ohm beast mode thing, also I though the ti line didn't put out till 1 ohm either

[ttocs]

sub amps have generally been used, and made for bridging as many subs as it can to get the lowest impedence possible. If people are really concerned with power output there is always the option to strap them but otherwise 9 out of 10 people will want it to go into lower impedences then they will higher. I don't think its triple darlington as much as the market.

[Eric D]

Class D amps are not triple Darlington, so that does not apply.

If PG (or any other company) made a big mono amp for 4 ohm power, customers would run it at 2 ohms. And they would run it at 1 ohm, and some would even run it at 0.5 ohm.

And it would fail...

Then people would complain, and their reputation would go down the tank.

So they make amps which can run 1 ohm all day, knowing that not too many people can or will load it down farther.

Back in the day when large 4 ohm optimized amps were the norm, we also had mostly 4 or 8 ohm subwoofers to choose from. Now we can get dual 2 ohm coil subs (or lower), so the amplifier designs need to track that.

[vladthebad]

If its X watts at 4 ohms or X watts at 1 ohm.... I'd still rather have it at 4. Or at worst, 2.... 1 ohm often doesn't sound good anymore with a lot of amps. All the cheap class d crap is going 1 ohm too.... Hell, MS vs MPS, maybe give customer an option of 4 ohm or 1 ohm power with a tweaked model number or something.

[Kirghiz]

Hell, MS vs MPS, maybe give customer an option of 4 ohm or 1 ohm power with a tweaked model number or something.

Yeah, but the current crop of Phoenix Gold amps can run at 4 ohm, they just do it at roughly half the power that they deliver at 2 ohm, but it is an option. I don't think there is anyone that would buy an Elite.1 to run it 1100-1200 rms at 4 ohm, and pay about $1500 for it. Even if it sounded like a sonic orgasm at 4 ohm (which it probably would) no one is going to pay that for a 1100-1200 watt amp that is as big as half your back seat.

If there is someone that would do that, it would be someone running a 4 ohm Morel Ultimo off of it, or something like that. An audiophile nut that is financially independent.

Either way, my point is they wouldn't build a new amp to deliver the same power at 4 ohm because it would be too big for most vehicle applications. Using four 4 ohm amps to deliver 2400 or 3200 watts offers more install flexibility.

Honestly though, the Elite.1, even though it's class d has better SQ specs than the majority of sub amps out there from any class.

[Kirghiz]

Also, the Elite.2 is full class A/B, is 800 watts at 4 ohms bridged, and 1000 watts at 2 ohm bridged, so there you go if you want a class A/B 4 ohm option.

[vladthebad]

With an optional model number addendum though, they could have a different transformer setup, and run higher voltage rails, higher voltage outputs, and make 1 ohm power at 4 ohms.... Or even 8 ohms.... Think elite.1MS or elite.1MAC or elite.1MPS. Pick your "ideal" output impedance, get badass output at that impedance, half power at twice that, and oh crap danger will Robinson at anything lower than rated....

[Eric D]

With an optional model number addendum though, they could have a different transformer setup, and run higher voltage rails, higher voltage outputs, and make 1 ohm power at 4 ohms.... Or even 8 ohms.... Think elite.1MS or elite.1MAC or elite.1MPS. Pick your "ideal" output impedance, get badass output at that impedance, half power at twice that, and oh crap danger will Robinson at anything lower than rated....

That would work 15 years ago, but not today.

Keep in mind that 15 years ago, probably half the good equipment out there was professionally installed. Add in that there was no Internet, so people had more common sense and could actually accomplish things with their hands, you end up with successful installations.

Today people would buy a 4 ohm optimized amp, install it in their driveway on a 1 ohm load, be impressed for 5 minutes while it screams, then when it goes "poof", they would post to forums and blogs all over about how it was junk and the company that make it sucks.

It makes no sense for companies to produce products that most people will break.

[vladthebad]

You'd think with the prices of the elite line though, that people installing them would have a clue... But you're likely right. Too many stupid people period. Now, and in the 90s. The guys that try and run the hcca's at 1/4 ohm bridged and crap... Or the opti 50c at a billionth of an ohm.... Those amps only survived as long as they did due to contact resistance and resistance of shitty speaker wire many times...

You'd almost have to build in a xenon or zpa style low voltage protect mode to drop the rail voltages... Adding more cost and windings, dropping efficiency, adding extra unneeded circuits... Maybe I just need to accept that people are dumb, and that bad reviews due to idiots blowing crap up means we can't have anything nice.

[ttocs]

huh, all those years seeing the pg/orion amps running hard to think they were saved by crappy speaker wire.... I would love to A-B a set of subs ran with the same power at different impedences to see who could tell the difference.

[Kirghiz]

That's just it. At 45 mph and various in car rattles (even with $1000 worth of dynamat, you'll have something somewhere), you aren't going to tell the difference between an amp at 4 ohm and an amp at 2 ohm. Most people, excepting the audiophiles, can't even tell the difference between a Class A/B and Class D amp.

Recapping the thread: Most people don't care about high end SQ, and most people are stupid.

[thebroke1]

Wow lol looks like I stirred up sum mixed feelings, although sadly you guys all make very valid points, I'm still newish 2 audio, say like maybe 5 years in2 it but it still does make me alittle sad when I hear ppl saying that boss and Sony are like the bests stuff they have ever heard in their life and that the stuff is so powerful an I ask what they r runnin I hear 5000 watt blah and I check up on it an they got maybe 800 watts if they r luck and it's all garbage, so imma agree that ppl r stupid and the internet does help @ all?

[Bfowler]

i'm with doc on this one. what WE would like to see, and what audio companies have to produce to stay in business are almost always much different things

[Kirghiz]

i'm with doc on this one. what WE would like to see, and what audio companies have to produce to stay in business are almost always much different things

That isn't necessarily true. I mean, yes, they have to produce things that consumers will buy, but they are also producing the high end stuff too that let's face it, the people that run it are the minority. I don't think any of the forum regulars here are going to be running R series amps. They'll for the most part go for the Ti2 or Elite lines, if not stick to the classic gear. The R series on the other hand are what Phoenix Gold will likely sell the most of because they're cheaper, and the uneducated will lap them up. Not to say that they're bad products by any stretch, but they aren't high end, and the most money in this hobby comes from people that just want boom.

If you really want a 4 ohm A/B option in the high end, the Elite.2 is there, and you can bridge the Elite.4 to 2 channels also. I will say though that the class D sub channel on the Elite.5 is clear as a bell at 2 ohm. I'd venture that the Elite.1 is also. I don't think it's really fair to lump all things class d together without hearing the Elites first, because they really are as good as most other company's a/b's imo.

[PhuckinGood]

i'm with doc on this one. what WE would like to see, and what audio companies have to produce to stay in business are almost always much different things

That isn't necessarily true. I mean, yes, they have to produce things that consumers will buy, but they are also producing the high end stuff too that let's face it, the people that run it are the minority. I don't think any of the forum regulars here are going to be running R series amps. They'll for the most part go for the Ti2 or Elite lines, if not stick to the classic gear. The R series on the other hand are what Phoenix Gold will likely sell the most of because they're cheaper, and the uneducated will lap them up. Not to say that they're bad products by any stretch, but they aren't high end, and the most money in this hobby comes from people that just want boom.

I mainly agree here, but must add, its the high end/exotic gear that creates the market place/cudos for the lower ranges

[Kirghiz]

I mainly agree here, but must add, its the high end/exotic gear that creates the market place/cudos for the lower ranges

That is true. Without the top end stuff to hang your hat on you're just MTX.

[Eric D]

The Elite series is already plenty "high end", yet can still handle low impedance loads, and has some user "idiot proofing" built in.

The list of car audio amplifiers with MT-200 output devices and Burr-Brown op amps, is not a very long one...

[Kirghiz]

The Elite series is already plenty "high end", yet can still handle low impedance loads, and has some user "idiot proofing" built in.

The list of car audio amplifiers with MT-200 output devices and Burr-Brown op amps, is not a very long one...

I know Phoenix Gold makes high end amps. It was a slap at the other companies that don't, like MTX, Fosgate, and the other "ZOMG we're the kings of car audio!!!1" companies out there that make middling stuff, price it appropriately, say it's awesome, and deliver what the consumer pays for. Average gear for an average price.

[thebroke1]

So what exactly happened 2 cat audio that the mid grade company's r considered the high grade? And why even though pg was bought say like 3 or more years ago have people still not heard of them and why do I mostly hear about soundstream or jl and maybe on rare occasion Orion?

[ttocs]

just like he said they delivered what the masses wanted, average gear at average price.

PG kinda fell off the radar for more then a few years when they went the way of rival and also lost alot of face from the xenon cold solder issues even though they took care of it. JL how ever at that time kept making solid gear and ok prices and backed it up they way a company should.

You have to remember also that the market made a COMPLETE 180 when internet sales started to kill the mom/pop shops and even took a good chunk out of the big box stores. It went from having the highest profit margin in most stores to having the worst customer turn-over for people comming in to show-room the gear and then go home and order it online with no warranty. PG was a brand that was always in small shops and alot of them are not around anymore...

[Kirghiz]

Even back when the car audio industry was booming in the 90's the respective brands more or less drew their marketing lines in the sand. At least in the area I was in back then.

There was a high end home theater store that sold the big TV's, high end surround sound equipment, and catered to audiophiles. They had a sound room dedicated to car audio, and a few excellent installers, and they stocked Phoenix Gold amps Clarion Mids and HU's, and Oz and JL Audio subs. All high end stuff at the time.

In the next town over was another home theater shop, same idea as the last place, but car audio wasn't huge for them. Still, they carried Precision Power, Soundstream, Sony Mobile ES, and Polk speakers. Polk was big for them on the home equipment side as well.

Then, there was also a dedicated car audio shop where all they did was car audio. They carried Fosgate, MTX, Alpine, Kicker, and Pioneer. They had the preloaded MTX and Kicker boxes stacked up, and they sold the hell out of them. They had a slew of Alpine and Pioneer HU's in their sound board, and the round Fosgate amps below them. That place did more car audio business than either of the other two, but the gear wasn't nearly as impressive. Granted, this was when Fosgate was winning trophies, and everybody was running Fosgate. I hated Fosgate because of all the douchebags that ran it.

Basically, at least where I was, it was the home theater stores catering to audiophiles that carried the good stuff, and the dedicated car audio shops stuck to the tried and true stuff that sold well. Sound business I suppose, but you could sort of see the direction things were heading even back then.