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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:03 pm 
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Bring back a updated limited version of the ZPA amplifier! And make it indestructible!



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:03 pm 

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I would appeal to the modern cars with a DSP with speaker level in, but offer it with a real amp built in.

There could be an entire line, with different power levels and different series levels, like an entry level one with like 45wx4, and a zeropoint series one with 150wx4. It would make OEM integration much neater and easier with todays factory integrated systems.



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:56 am 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

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been saying it for a while now but I guess this would be the spot for it - How about bringin back the cyclone? I think with some modern technology and minor changes that were not possible then and that thing would be a monster!



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:49 am 

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ttocs wrote:
been saying it for a while now but I guess this would be the spot for it - How about bringin back the cyclone? I think with some modern technology and minor changes that were not possible then and that thing would be a monster!


this definitely.



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:13 pm 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

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always been curious what would have happened with a smaller version, like an 8" cyclone if it would increase its freq response to be a little more usable and still drop to the lows like a 15 would... I can't help but think that they gave up too early on it and just didn't refine it enough.



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:24 pm 

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honestly, you can make the freq response of the cyclone work more now than you could when it came out. Before you almost had to dedicate another subwoofer to fill in the upper end of the sub frequencies, and eat up a ton more space, which more or less defeated the purpose of it. Nowadays you can get some high power 8's or even 6.5's in teeny tiny boxes to fill in that range. If you take a look at the antique Mustang in the builder's challenge in which they used a pair of cyclones, they put a pair of SL10's under the front seats. While a lot can be said about the shortcomings of shallow mount subs in general, they can play this role very well. Back in 1993 the thought of mounting a 10" sub under a front seat was absurd. Now it'reasonably easy. The cyclone's problem is that it was 20 years ahead of it's time. The industry is in a better place now to overcome it's shortcomings than it was then.

If they started out by making it like it was, but perhaps make it from better material and make it require less maintenance than the original, I'd be happy with it like it was. With the direction the industry is taking in terms amps and subs doing more in less space, and amplifiers having less draw on electrical systems, I could see a day in which a pair of high power cyclones replaced a wall of 15's in the SPL lanes, and set records, and also when a single cyclone and pair of shallow mount small box subs became the direction of sq builds.



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:32 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:59 pm
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Kirghiz wrote:
perhaps make it from better material and make it require less maintenance than the original, I'd be happy with it like it was.


Quote from post#3: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofe ... river.html

Quote:
Note; do not mold a motor housing out of plastic when the motor has strong Neo magnets inside. Unfortunately, over time, too many of the Cyclone began to rub internally.
While one could usually re-adjust the tension bolts to fix it, it was a rubber glove to fix a leaking pen.


I can think of a dozen materials that were available in 1992-1993 that would have been better than plastic. Unfortunately, it may not be something Phoenix Gold has any control over legally since Danley licensed the technology to them for mobile audio use. After 20 years I guess any patent rights he has to it are probably expired, but even so, the likelihood of Phoenix Gold having anyone on staff that can design/develop such a beast is slim and none.

I wonder how hard it would be to take an old one and rebuild it out of lexan though?



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:53 pm 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

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the one I did I matched with a nice IDQ 10" in a .6 cu ft box and the mix of the two was pretty impressive. I remember my drill launching off of the rear package tray when we first cranked it up.

I can't help but think that some CF in the blade, some better magnets and just better/more accurate machining and better assembly as well as again maybe a revision or two and that thing could impress a whole new generation of audio people again 20 yrs later.....



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:22 pm 

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Oh, I know it was a beast. I heard it back in high school. My local Phoenix Gold dealer had one in a CRX demo vehicle running off an M25. The knock on them was never the sound or the output. It was always the dependability. That can be pretty much attributed to molding the motor housing out of f'ng plastic to keep the cost down. Granted, the price was exorbitant even after the cost cutting measures, and PG had to price it to sell the product, but any way you look at it, using the plastic is what killed a genius idea.

After doing some more reading on it, I am pretty sure Tom Danley's patent has expired based on his flippant attitude toward it, so I'd say PG is free to pursue it if they desired.

To Phoenix Gold: If you make it again, use lexan or some other more durable material.



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:34 pm 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

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I would rather they came out with a limited edition run of those then another spl amp......... they have shown now that they can do it (SPL) with plain old brute power with the one I think it would be cool to turn around and show that they can do it another way as well.



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:17 pm 

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ttocs wrote:
I would rather they came out with a limited edition run of those then another spl amp......... they have shown now that they can do it (SPL) with plain old brute power with the one I think it would be cool to turn around and show that they can do it another way as well.


Even then though there are obstacles to that. The first being building one that is durable and dependable. The second is that while it's excursion in the early 90's was equal to about 3 12" subs, today its excursion is equal to about 1 12" sub that requires a comparatively small ported box and can take a ton of power. Forgetting the subsonic capabilities, the original is basically an Elite 12 at rms power that only requires 150 watts. With Class D amps such as they are, power is cheap compared to what it was back then, so the appeal of having 3 12's on 150 watts isn't what it was. Today everybody wants small, even the SPL crowd if only so they can cram more in. Another issue, albeit small, is the fact that most amps now only have a low end freq response in the 15-20hz range. Subsonic is useless if the amp can't send that signal to it.

If it could be made to hit like three of today's 12"s and do it in under 2 cu total it would be appealing, but the original had a half cubic foot displacement just for the cyclone itself. I tend to think it would take a while to take a technology that literally no one has done r. on in 20 years and improve output while reducing size. It's a pretty tall order.

But, assuming it could be done, and be done in a way that reasonable people could afford to buy it, I could totally see it replacing traditional subwoofers in the competition lanes. Especially now that shallow mount subs in tiny boxes can fill in that 50-120hz range, and you wouldn't have to run two full subwoofer systems, at least in terms of space.

I actually think that if they are going to make SPL in a special way, and make people take notice, it's going to be through small enclosures and perfecting the idea of the shallow mount subs to make them perform like real subs. If nothing else, make a shallow mount 15 with a 3.5" Depth, permanently afix another one on top of it, internally wire them together and have screens over the pole vents so that there is nothing to hurt by hanging the back of a sub 4.25 inches out the back of the box (2.75 Total depth inside), and call it Thunderdome. Theoretically you'd be able to get a 15" in about 1.5 Ported, and I think there is a huge market for something like that. Especially if the total sensitivity was 85db+ and the one way xmax was 15mm+. With some creative enclosure design one could get 4 of those 15's in a conventional car trunk easily. while that might be far fetched, it's much closer to actually happening than a cyclone that is as comparably good against its competition as the original was.

I'd like to see a new cyclone. I'd like to see it A lot in fact. But I know that it won't happen. At least any time in the next five years, and that's if they started the engineering process tomorrow.



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:27 am 
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Cyclone please .... :mrgreen: .... can I order a pair now :pray:



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:26 am 
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freshkryp69 wrote:
Bring back a updated limited version of the ZPA amplifier! And make it indestructible!


We did its called the Elite series.



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:40 pm 

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MW3 wrote:
freshkryp69 wrote:
Bring back a updated limited version of the ZPA amplifier! And make it indestructible!


We did its called the Elite series.


What about some mini-Elites? I know keeping the size uniform was important to Phoenix Gold, but the length of the Elites is fairly unwieldy. Something like a 125w x 2 (Half of a.4) or [email protected]/1600x1 (half of a .1). You can keep the width and depth the same, but cut down the length. Getting two full size elites into an install is something of a challenge in a lot of cases. But if one ran two of those "half.4"s and two of the "half.1"s it would offer more install flexibility. It would also make it more viable to run Elites if someone wanted say a four channel, but doesn't want a hoss of a sub amp like that full size .1. A "half.1" Would allow you to run a pair of Ti2 subs or a single Elite.12 If that's all you wanted.

The size is most definitely an advantage for the ZPA's if you're comparing the two. I've never compared directly if the Elites make more power per square inch, and they may do it, but having smaller Elite options would definitely open doors for install flexibility.



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:08 pm 
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Elite.5 addresses the issue if someone wanted a smaller power Elite four channel and monoblock. It would also be smaller than two separate amplifiers.

Elite amps are not small, but with smaller size come some compromises that we don't want to make.

If you are looking for a small, really good sounding amplifier, with excellent power I really suggest our new SD or Ti2 full range platform. We are putting finishing touches on that now.



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:56 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:59 pm
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I'd like to see Phoenix Gold come out with some signal processing options to compete with the Audison Bit One and Bit Ten. I have found myself looking at those, and where everything except the HU is Phoenix Gold in my truck, I get this feeling like I am cheating on my wife when looking at it. :doh:



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:28 pm 
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Kirghiz wrote:
I'd like to see Phoenix Gold come out with some signal processing options to compete with the Audison Bit One and Bit Ten. I have found myself looking at those, and where everything except the HU is Phoenix Gold in my truck, I get this feeling like I am cheating on my wife when looking at it. :doh:


X2 finding reliable new hardware to go all active is a pain.Especially trying to stay within certain brands.


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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:11 pm 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

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wasn't a problem for me, after I found that 1-off phoenix gold/rane cross over from that bimmer show car.



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:33 pm 
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New suggestion. Maybe rx series 2000/2500.1? Need something to fill the gap between the multiple 1100/1300 and the elite.1. Why not make it in the rx line? I could handle it being in the ti2 line to replace the ti 2500.1 tho. But a rx 2500.1 in the $600 range seems reasonable.



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:50 pm 

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Kirghiz wrote:
I'd like to see Phoenix Gold come out with some signal processing options to compete with the Audison Bit One and Bit Ten. I have found myself looking at those, and where everything except the HU is Phoenix Gold in my truck, I get this feeling like I am cheating on my wife when looking at it. :doh:


Something that makes the option to bypass the on-board X-over on the Elite.5 more desirable!!! :D


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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 5:58 am 

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End caps for the Elite and Ti2 amps would be cool.



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 4:00 pm 

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Kirghiz wrote:
I'd like to see Phoenix Gold come out with some signal processing options to compete with the Audison Bit One and Bit Ten. I have found myself looking at those, and where everything except the HU is Phoenix Gold in my truck, I get this feeling like I am cheating on my wife when looking at it. :doh:


To elaborate on this a bit, I would like to see a unit that installs between the head unit and amps that incorporates a line driver with selectable output voltage. It would also have a usb input to connect a laptop to it. More on that in a bit. It would have 10 full range outputs and 2 subwoofer outputs. The subwoofer outputs would be tied to a processor that has all of the features of the bass cube including the adjustable sub sonic filter and frequency boost adjustment, but setup of the bass cube aspect would be controlled through the laptop software..

The laptop would be the controller for the unit, and of course would require software to operate. The software would allow you to custom designate the 10 outputs to their proper role in the vehicle, for example a 3 way front stage would use 6 of them. It would also give you the ability to input high pass/low pass/bandpass crossover points for each output, and assign phase and timing adjustments to each channel. Once everything is set up, unplug the laptop and let it rock. When the laptop is unplugged the processor would remain at the settings last input through the laptop, and control of the system would go back to the HU instead of a remote that you see with some other processors. This gives the ability to take the setting up of the processor out of the customer's hands and places it with the installer if desired, and also eliminates the need to find a home for a bulky remote. At worst you'd need a bas cube remote to adjust bass boost, but that is all I figure would need to be in the dash.

I'd give $1000+ for a piece of equipment that did all of that easy. Call it "Elite Control". While 10 full range outputs might seem over the top, there is an individual on this forum building a system around two Elite4s and an Elite2 on the mid bass and midrange/tweets, and Elite1 on the subs (it ain't me), and that install would use every one of them.

Short of that, please make the Bass Cube again so we can stop having to deal with rabble on ebay for used gear that may or may not work right, and authorized dealers that can't tell the difference between a Bass Cube and a Line Driver.

Thanks!



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 9:24 pm 
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That would be great? What you just described is basically what the ms8 does. But here's my problem. The ms8 has only 8 outputs, so I can setup a three way up front and subs. Well that's all eight channel's. what about rear fill?. Can't do it. So 10 channels would be so perfect.
And my biggest pet peeve is that the ms8 has eight inputs, but you can't actually use them. Only front inputs are used from the H/U. So now I have lost all the control of the features on my nice deck.


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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:02 pm 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

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I disagree on making any processor that requires a pc to use it. We all loved the PG DEQ when it came out, but when they didn't update the software for the next os it was already dated and on its way out.



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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenix Gold Product Suggestions (Here We Dream)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:15 pm 

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Drock wrote:
What you just described is basically what the ms8 does.


It's also what the Audison Bit One and Alpine H800 do. In my opinion the MS8, Bit One, and H800 are the three best processors out there. Someone on the DIYMA forum did a head to head comparison of the three using scopes and such, and basically determined the Alpine the winner, but that is one man and his tests. I'm sure the jury is still out in reality.

The Audison can be programmed via computer, but it still requires a din sized remote. The Alpine has something they call "Imprint Technology", which is essentially a microphone that you plug in while tuning, and the processor will listen and adjust the timing and phase automatically to achieve what the processor perceives is the best SQ. You can of course manually tweak it too. The Alpine H800 has a rather large remote also. In my opinion, once you set up the processor, you really don't need a bulky remote to control the system. If you have a decent HU with an EQ built in, and anyone that is going to drop the cash on this isn't going to skimp on the HU, those are the only adjustments you need, save for the bass cube dial. Anything much beyond that and you are going to pull over on the side of the road, at which point you can plug the laptop in and do it. Obviously the HU EQ would be set flat while setting up the processor, but you could then use the HU EQ to tweak from track to track without having to fumble with a processor controller.

What I was thinking on the inputs was basically the Front Right/Left, Rear Right/Left, and the subs. Everything that comes out of the HU goes into the processor. From there the processor sends the sub signal to the two sub outputs (in case someone is running 2 sub amps), and the front/rear signals go to the 10 (or 12 if it's justifiable) full range channels, which are fully customizable from the laptop software. Once set up, the processor would recognize fader and balance adjustments from the HU, as well as EQ adjustments, to allow for the HU to be used as the primary controller. Below is a screenshot of the Bit One's software if you haven't seen it.

Attachment:
screen-shot-1.jpg
screen-shot-1.jpg [ 148.81 KiB | Viewed 4334 times ]


Increasing the number of outputs, integrating the bass cube, having a customizable line driver to send the right signal voltage to the amps (whether it be 4 volts or 10, depending on amps), and eliminating the remote in favor of HU control of the system would most definitely be a product that separates itself from the other processors that are out there. Plus, using the laptop programming system makes it so that the installer can opt to take control of the processor away from the customer if they aren't competent, like PG did with the Bass Cube, and they can't push a wrong button and break a setting and then not be able to fix it. It sort of idiot proofs it. For those that do know what they're doing, the interface on a 17" laptop screen, or even a tablet, would be more user friendly than trying to do everything on a din size touch screen as well. Plus, eliminating the remote system removes a $200+ part from the purchase equation and would help PG produce a much beefier product, but be able to competitively price it against the aforementioned three processors that all have remotes.



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