Old school car audio - RIP

6ix · Post by **6ix** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:24 am

This place seems pretty decent, but no offence, it appears to be a bit dead on here. Still, at least the few people who post appear to be friendly and helpful. Much more than can be said of other car audio forums! Everywhere else has been a pile of crap. I even tried the link the the face book page for Phoenix Gold classifieds. No joy there either. It is locked and I cannot even send a message to the admin. I only signed up to FB for that.

Oh well. I guess old school is dead.

Post by **Bfowler** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:26 am

6ix wrote:This place seems pretty decent, but no offence, it appears to be a bit dead on here. Still, at least the few people who post appear to be friendly and helpful. Much more than can be said of other car audio forums! Everywhere else has been a pile of crap. I even tried the link the the face book page for Phoenix Gold classifieds. No joy there either. It is locked and I cannot even send a message to the admin. I only signed up to FB for that.

Oh well. I guess old school is dead.

yeah, the classifieds mod is dumb. i left that place after he deleted a thread i started asking about amp repairs.

its hard to keep a forum going with no new content really. pretty much every old school question has been asked and answered. PG has let go all the hidden goodies in their basement depths.

still a lot of good info here!

Post by **Eric D** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:59 pm

I used to be more active here with things like amp repairs, and amp reviews. PG also used to have at least a few employees frequent the forum to keep everyone informed. There also used to be several members here who always had wild and crazy projects going on. Some more extreme installations, and some impressive amp mods.

Personally, I don't do much with car audio anymore. I have put my recent efforts into my home system. I think a few others have chosen to do the same. I still have far more car audio equipment than I will ever need, so I do wish to do something useful with it someday.

Post by **ttocs** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:41 pm

yea it you to be busy as heck here but a lot of us got old, got families and busy and got pulled away. Take into account that PG isn't what it use to be and that the kids of today don't need anything that great to play their mp3's via bluetooth anyway. Surprised that andres has not approved you as I didn't think he cared who was in there unless he thinks your andy.

6ix · Post by **6ix** » Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:02 am

I wonder if a lot of the stashed old school equipment collections will be nose diving in value? If there are not enough people into it and no demand, then it might be a daft place to keep loads of money. Not that we do it for investment! Nostalgia rules. However, I can see loads of stuff hitting ebay in the future and selling for next to nothing as the new generations wont care. The brand names stopped meaning much. Plus the new kids will no doubt stick with OEM instals, or demand 20k watts in something the size of a cigarette pack.

Post by **Eric D** » Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:30 am

6ix wrote:I wonder if a lot of the stashed old school equipment collections will be nose diving in value? If there are not enough people into it and no demand, then it might be a daft place to keep loads of money. Not that we do it for investment! Nostalgia rules. However, I can see loads of stuff hitting ebay in the future and selling for next to nothing as the new generations wont care. The brand names stopped meaning much. Plus the new kids will no doubt stick with OEM instals, or demand 20k watts in something the size of a cigarette pack.

I could not agree more. I sold off most of my equipment, other than items which have personal value to me. I am confident I will never get what I paid out of them, but the stuff I have left I have little intention of ever selling.

My big fear is 24V cars. When (if) cars switch to 24V, all this old school stuff will drop to next to nothing just from that. Yes, 24V to 12V convertors are a possibility, but they would just add an additional level of inefficiency. The auto industry has been pushing for 24V or even 48V systems for some time, and I am certain it will happen. Higher voltage systems will drop a lot of weight off the vehicle, and that will improve the fuel economy.

My other fear is if cars do go to 24V, and all this equipment drops in value, will people stick these amps on eBay, or just throw them in the trash. I am guessing a lot of nice amps will end up in the trash, as many people don't like dealing with the fuss of trying to sell them.

trickyricky · Post by **trickyricky** » Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:24 am

I don't think they will step up the voltage Eric....Electric cars are here and to stay, those things work on very high voltages. I believe that in 15 years from now all cars will be electric (besides semi's but then again you never know with how fast technology is moving that I wouldn't be surprised if we are able to make semi's run on electricity.

6ix · Post by **6ix** » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:43 pm

Very good point regarding the voltage! That is another issue I had not even considered!

I wont be putting a fortune into car audio, even though I do find it rather exciting when I see NOS items. So I will keep myself in check. I'd like a small stash: one complete system for a new instal, plus another set for home display / backup spares. So even if their values drop I wont care too much as I wouldn't be selling anyway. So long as I can put them on the wall as retro art that is fine.

I hope to pick up a few NOS bargains if people start cashing out. PG, RF, Zapco mainly.

vwdude · Post by **vwdude** » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:08 pm

I don't see voltage being an immediate impact. Even if all 2017 cars were 24v, how many of those cars would be getting systems anyway, let alone old school systems. Also, many of us have many more amps than we'll need. It's not just about installing them, for me at least, they are works of art, and represent the "good old days" when the industry allowed for them to do whatever they want. Bean counters didn't rule the roost. Larry Fredericks could say one day "oh I'd like to build a processor to make a center channel" and the next day he was building it.

As for this site being slow...two things. 1) it's cyclic. These forums go up and down in cycles. The more conversation that takes place the more it picks up.
2) forums are a dying breed. Posting pictures here versus Facebook is much more complex (to post here I host them on photobucket and then paste them here) versus on fb you just load it.

Whether you like Andras or not doesn't matter. Anyone can create a group on there. Why not create one with "better" rules, I'm sure some people like Brian fowler will join it. Plus, Rebecca and a few others from AAMP post on there regularly. For some reason they don't come here anymore, maybe because this format seems to be fading away. Either way, I like coming here. It's more organized.

freshkryp69 · Post by **freshkryp69** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:52 am

Old school is dead my ass.... Pfft! Ive seen old school prices hold or rise on many items old school and ive been watching for 20 yrs+ like most of you guys. There are lots of younger kids these days that appreciate old school, but not like there used to be.. we cant expect them to know whats up, without us educating them on the choice old school equipment...

Post by **ttocs** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:42 pm

I am not sure I would say there are a lot of younger kids all they care about is bluetooth/and streaming for MP3's Sure under the highest mp3 formats they are almost as good as cd quality sound good but not quiet. I Use mp3 quality just for convenience bit when I got a jam on, its digital, dank

Post by **kg1961** » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:42 am

I agree with scott
my car is full of cds
even my wife has 2 ipods in her suv
I also think the day of having a full trunk of audio is not as easy with a lot smaller car vs the 60,70,80 cars I used to see in the parking lot at school when I was a kid

freshkryp69 · Post by **freshkryp69** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:02 pm

In helping admin the OSS pages and others on FB for the past 3+ or so yrs with 10's of thousands of members I have been in contact with many younger people and all of them are into or have appreciation for everything old school, with a few exceptions ( I get bombarded with Q's all the time lol which is a good thing), they arent in the numbers as us old guys but they are there! The page does attract like minded people so in that it keeps most people who arent interested away.. But its reassuring at least, some of them are really into it. Ive noticed quite a few dropping some serious coin on OS gear. Mainly its the amps, xovers, hu's..

6ix · Post by **6ix** » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:43 pm

I only just got onto FB just to get on the PG classifieds. So what other worthwhile places are on there for old school car audio?

ps

Just found "Old School Stereo" on there

Post by **smgreen20** » Fri May 13, 2016 8:13 pm

Old School Stereo's FB page is where I frequent mostly now. It's just a lot easier then phorums. Plus you get to see that persons face that otherwise would be hiding behind a PC screen.

On FB, if you type in the OS brand you like with old school in it, you'll probably find it.

PG OSS
Clarion OSS
LANZAR OSS
Alpine OSS...........................

RayBuck · Post by **RayBuck** » Sat May 14, 2016 9:55 am

I don't have Facebook to much drama in this lill ass town but would consider it just to see some oldschool shit

Post by **smgreen20** » Sat May 14, 2016 12:12 pm

FB is ok if you're smart about who you have as friends on there. If I don't know them and they send me a friends invite, I'll look into who they are first. If I don't find anything, I'll accept and then look at their profile and such. If I don't like what I see, they're gone. I'll give someone the three strike deal if I do accept.

Most of my FB friends are people from here, OSS, music groups, SOME co-workers, long time friends and family. You'd love what you see there.

Post by **ttocs** » Sat May 14, 2016 12:20 pm

yea it depends on the site really. My mustang forum has a FB page but its just the most immature bickering BS that just seems to never stop but the old school/pg pages are pretty cool. Not sure how a pic that we all know could be anyone would replace some of the long term sales relationships I have had here though.

freudie1 · Post by **freudie1** » Tue May 17, 2016 9:28 am

My thoughts on old school gear:

In a nutshell, most of it sucked. Those of us who grew up in the 80's/90's have rose colored glasses I believe.

Let's see:

Amps were over a $1.00 a watt for quality amps.

Proprietary connectors (or no connectors and just raw power wires to connect to).

HUGE footprints.

Horrific efficiency. 1000 watt system? Time of at least one high output alternator. Major PITA.

Crossovers? Let's see: Chip based crossovers (you are joking right?), pots with no detents (good luck setting that accurately), ridiculous large footprints for xovers.

EQs? HUUUUUGE footprint with terrible sliders that broke and/or got dirty constantly.

Time delay? Break out your check book and convert some rack mounted pro audio gear to 12v.

Heat........always enjoyed the amps that would shut down if it was over 70 degrees outside.

Headunits: Oy.....let's see: Crappy displays, dim displays, remote controls (remember that "concept" instead of steering wheel controls that are now standard on most cars now), steal me factor, pull-out head units (I remember walking around with the entire head unit via the "handle"...ha), faceplates that got lost (another great "feature"), the list goes on.

I think the future of car audio is integration. People don't want to dismantle their dash to install a less than OEM looking headunit. They don't want to lose their entire trunk to 3 ft long amps and assorted gear. High output alternators are a nightmare to find an actual quality unit, hence the proliferation of Class D has become a boon to the industry (sorry, you CAN NOT tell a difference with quality Class D amps).

Makes me laugh at all the junk I lusted over as a kid. Marketing to young people is easy!

dwnrodeo · Post by **dwnrodeo** » Tue May 17, 2016 11:52 am

freudie1 wrote:My thoughts on old school gear:

In a nutshell, most of it sucked. Those of us who grew up in the 80's/90's have rose colored glasses I believe.

Let's see:

Amps were over a $1.00 a watt for quality amps.

Proprietary connectors (or no connectors and just raw power wires to connect to).

HUGE footprints.

Horrific efficiency. 1000 watt system? Time of at least one high output alternator. Major PITA.

Crossovers? Let's see: Chip based crossovers (you are joking right?), pots with no detents (good luck setting that accurately), ridiculous large footprints for xovers.

EQs? HUUUUUGE footprint with terrible sliders that broke and/or got dirty constantly.

Time delay? Break out your check book and convert some rack mounted pro audio gear to 12v.

Heat........always enjoyed the amps that would shut down if it was over 70 degrees outside.

Headunits: Oy.....let's see: Crappy displays, dim displays, remote controls (remember that "concept" instead of steering wheel controls that are now standard on most cars now), steal me factor, pull-out head units (I remember walking around with the entire head unit via the "handle"...ha), faceplates that got lost (another great "feature"), the list goes on.

I think the future of car audio is integration. People don't want to dismantle their dash to install a less than OEM looking headunit. They don't want to lose their entire trunk to 3 ft long amps and assorted gear. High output alternators are a nightmare to find an actual quality unit, hence the proliferation of Class D has become a boon to the industry (sorry, you CAN NOT tell a difference with quality Class D amps).

Makes me laugh at all the junk I lusted over as a kid. Marketing to young people is easy!

I wouldn't go as far as to say most of it sucked, there are a lot of great old school amplifiers out there.

Higher price amplifiers were also the result of a lot of manufacturers building or even hand assembling them right here in the U.S. of A. Now, most of them are outsourced overseas, which brings the cost down (notice I didn't say quality).

I do agree with the rest of what you have stated. Large footprint amps, lower efficiecy amps, separate devices for crossovers/EQ's, etc... are just not that desirable.Today there is more of a desire for three way plus subwoofer setups, or even multiple driver setups that use elaborate processing to overcome the acoustical obstacles of car audio and it needs to be done without taking up precious space. Do it all processers and small footprint amplifiers that have enough channels to run an elaborate setup are all the rage now. Try running a three way plus sub setup with MS series amplifiers. You'll need four of them (or three if one is a hard to find MQ430 or MS1000) to accomplish that and they're not that small.

Despite the shortcomings of old school car audio, there will always be a nostalgic factor that will never go away. Much like people's love for muscle cars or Harley's.

Post by **ttocs** » Tue May 17, 2016 12:03 pm

depends on how you look at I it I guess I mean no the decks do not have the options they do today but then today if you wanted to get a true SQ based head unit, dead head/copper chassis where are you going to look? Want something other then a class D amp? Hope you like them small and black.... Old slider EQ's I almost prefers as there is almost always some kind of deal-breaker that the digital does or does not do that would be nice. For example my last one, the alpine self tuning system was neat to see it work but then after it made its measurements you could not adjust anything short of bass/treble. I think I built one system for a guy that complained the heat shut it down and it was really our fault for not leaving enough space for the fans to breath but it was hard to fit an extra inch anywhere in that car.

6ix · Post by **6ix** » Tue May 17, 2016 12:18 pm

Old school systems could be kept simple: one amp, in dash combined pre amp / eq, point source speakers in the kicks (no real need for TA), one sub. Really not much hassle and lovely sounds. For SQ you don't need loads of power either so the efficiency was neither here nor there.

dwnrodeo · Post by **dwnrodeo** » Tue May 17, 2016 12:47 pm

6ix wrote:Old school systems could be kept simple: one amp, in dash combined pre amp / eq, point source speakers in the kicks (no real need for TA), one sub. Really not much hassle and lovely sounds. For SQ you don't need loads of power either so the efficiency was neither here nor there.

Agreed, they can be kept simple, but the current trend is wanting 8 channels or more of amplification. As processor capabilities increase, it becomes easier to add more channels and therefore more drivers.

RayBuck · Post by **RayBuck** » Tue May 17, 2016 7:20 pm

freudie1 wrote:My thoughts on old school gear:

In a nutshell, most of it sucked. Those of us who grew up in the 80's/90's have rose colored glasses I believe.

Let's see:

Amps were over a $1.00 a watt for quality amps.

Proprietary connectors (or no connectors and just raw power wires to connect to).

HUGE footprints.

Horrific efficiency. 1000 watt system? Time of at least one high output alternator. Major PITA.

Crossovers? Let's see: Chip based crossovers (you are joking right?), pots with no detents (good luck setting that accurately), ridiculous large footprints for xovers.

EQs? HUUUUUGE footprint with terrible sliders that broke and/or got dirty constantly.

Time delay? Break out your check book and convert some rack mounted pro audio gear to 12v.

Heat........always enjoyed the amps that would shut down if it was over 70 degrees outside.

Headunits: Oy.....let's see: Crappy displays, dim displays, remote controls (remember that "concept" instead of steering wheel controls that are now standard on most cars now), steal me factor, pull-out head units (I remember walking around with the entire head unit via the "handle"...ha), faceplates that got lost (another great "feature"), the list goes on.

I think the future of car audio is integration. People don't want to dismantle their dash to install a less than OEM looking headunit. They don't want to lose their entire trunk to 3 ft long amps and assorted gear. High output alternators are a nightmare to find an actual quality unit, hence the proliferation of Class D has become a boon to the industry (sorry, you CAN NOT tell a difference with quality Class D amps).

Makes me laugh at all the junk I lusted over as a kid. Marketing to young people is easy!

Lots of good points.

freudie1 · Post by **freudie1** » Wed May 18, 2016 3:13 pm

ttocs wrote:depends on how you look at I it I guess I mean no the decks do not have the options they do today but then today if you wanted to get a true SQ based head unit, dead head/copper chassis where are you going to look? Want something other then a class D amp? Hope you like them small and black.... Old slider EQ's I almost prefers as there is almost always some kind of deal-breaker that the digital does or does not do that would be nice. For example my last one, the alpine self tuning system was neat to see it work but then after it made its measurements you could not adjust anything short of bass/treble. I think I built one system for a guy that complained the heat shut it down and it was really our fault for not leaving enough space for the fans to breath but it was hard to fit an extra inch anywhere in that car.

SQ headunit? I used to care about such things until I realized the very listening environment that we are installing in is a moving vehicle with road noise that can only be tamed to a certain extent. In other words, you aren't going to hear the differences between a "sq headunit" and a decent OEM headunit (using appropriate processor I admit to handle the signal).

Class D: Despite being "ugly" cosmetically (for the most part), the vast majority of installs I see today are hidden amps, etc behind or under seats/etc. Other than those of us who choose to "highlight" our gear (and I use that term loosely as I just finished my personal install with Xenons in a nice amp rack yet it's covered by the rear bench seat back (and I doubt I'll ever show it off per say other than to an occasional buddy)). The days of the disco lit, bling/blang (yes I used that terminology and I am chuckling) are over.

As for EQs/sliders/pro audio rack gear: Install a Helix Pro DSP and be done. I've said it in other threads, that processor owns. It actually works and is stupidly small/easy to install. I can tune with my laptop right from my driver's seat.

Heat and space are major factors in car audio installs. The old school installs were ridiculous typically. Want a trunk? Too bad, you have your amps where the spare tire went and the processors/subs/etc where the storage was. Too hot? Install some fans. Oh wait, now I hear fan noise.

My personal favorite were the "cheater" amps that people would wire down to stupid low impedance loads to eeek out another 100-200 watts. Efficiency be damned, despite the fact that most of those installers didn't respect the fact that it takes 2X the power to increase +3db (i.e. what humans perceive as "louder"). Someone in this thread commented about "doesn't require a lot of power for SQ". I agree. However, I do like to play the music a bit louder in a vehicle as opposed to my theater/listening room due to the fact that I have a noise floor to contend with in a vehicle (you can hear your pulse in my listening room, hence I can get away with trivial amounts of power if I choose to).