Best PG Amp Series?

Post by **stipud** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:48 am

Larry, I can't count on my appendages the number of times that switch has come up on the forums either.

CarAudioGuru · Post by **CarAudioGuru** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:11 am

And what is even werider is we put a GIANT ASS BRIGHT YELLOW sticker on the top Plex ..telling whomever that there was a switch!

What can I say...People amaze me on a daily basis

maka78 · Post by **maka78** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:12 am

so, why are these amps, such as the ZPA or THESIS HV Venti so much better than a PG Xenon or an Alpine amp?

Is it mainly the parts used inside the amp?

My main question here is: If two amps (let's say PG and Alpine) are both rated at 100x2 @ 4 ohms, why would one or the other be any better? I'm not asking to compare the two, just using them as an example.

Post by **stipud** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:16 am

CarAudioGuru wrote:And what is even werider is we put a GIANT ASS BRIGHT YELLOW sticker on the top Plex ..telling whomever that there was a switch!

What can I say...People amaze me on a daily basis

In all fairness, the people who had difficulty with this on the forums bought the amps used, and thus no sticker. The fact that your dealers missed that completely is pretty pathetic however!

CarAudioGuru · Post by **CarAudioGuru** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:33 am

Yes - Parts used, board layout, materials, etc.

We (well PG) at the time (early 90's) built THE best car audio amplifiers in the WORLD!

PERIOD!!! Best parts, best PCB, best design, etc.

All the things that mean...the best. You cannot say your the best, and use TIP35/36 output devices in an amplifier.
Just not possible. 3 Meg parts, compared to the GIANT ass 25 Meg TOSIBAS we used.
Like comparing a Yugo and a BMW. Don't get me wrong, TIP35/36's are good parts. Just slow. Speed is a BIG deal when it comes to sound quality.

But it costs.

TIP35/36's are like $0.38 cents now in large quantities. Whereas the Toshibas are $2.18. Doesn’t sound like a big deal, right?
But the way manufacturers figure out retail prices is by using their BOM (Bill of Materials) X 5 equals retail!

REALLY!!

So if my amp cost $45.00 in BOM, then it retails for $225.00. Lets say there are 8 output devices.
IF they cost $0.38 then the cost of the outputs is $0.38 X 8 X 5. Or $3.04 X 5 which is $15.20.
But if I (or lets say PG) uses the Toshiba parts, the ones that cost $2.18 each, then it is $2.18 X 8 =17.44
X 5 = 87.20.

So the PG amp just cost YOU , the consumer $72.00 more for the cool output devices.

So now this amplifier just went up to $297 retail(form $225) ..JUST because I changed the output device’s.

Not better connectors - which would cost another $3.32 more – or an additional $16.60 –just for better higher conductivity connectors.
Or more heatsink, which is $1.62 a pound more, or 4 layer PCB, which is triple the square inch cost, etc, etc

Do you see where I am going here?? Just because it can swing the same 20 volts out AC into a 4 ohm load, does NOT make it the same.

Post by **stipud** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:35 am

maka78 wrote:so, why are these amps, such as the ZPA or THESIS HV Venti so much better than a PG Xenon or an Alpine amp?

Is it mainly the parts used inside the amp?

My main question here is: If two amps (let's say PG and Alpine) are both rated at 100x2 @ 4 ohms, why would one or the other be any better? I'm not asking to compare the two, just using them as an example.

It's all about parts and design!

For example, one thing that sets the PG higher end models off, compared to usual brands, is that they use "triple darlington arrays". What this is, is they use multiple BJT's (bipolar junction transistors), as opposed to a small number of MOSFETs to amplify the sound signal. A BJT is much more linear (therefore, more accurate to the original signal), where a MOSFET can generally provide more current. So you need more BJTs to produce the same output voltage as a MOSFET constructed amp (which increases the cost), though you do get more accurate sound from them.

Everything down to resistors and capacitors can be improved upon. Low tolerance ceramic resistors or WIMA capacitors are said to make an improvement in sound quality. Opamps have varying quality levels as well, this is why you hear "Burr-brown" as an upgrade for many devices. You can also improve sound quality by reducing noise sources, for example BRAX amps which isolate their transformer coils.

Circuit board design is also very important. The MS amps are nearly "dual mono". That is to say, they have separate powersupplies feeding each channel, and both sides of the amp are isolated as much as possible. This gives you the best stereo separation, so little of the left channel sound "bleeds" into the right channel, and vice versa.

There are even different types of amps. Pure class A requires a ridiculous amount of current to produce a very low amount of output, but it is considered the most accurate. Class A/B mixes two different classes through a biasing circuit, which allows the amp to be more efficient yet still produce comparable results to a pure Class A amp. There is also Class D, which "digitally" amplifies a wave, by using high current fast switching MOSFETs. And recently we are getting new designs that allow the digital amps to produce full range, like Class T or full-range Class D amps. All of these different technologies have their own inherent sound as well.

Post by **fuzzysnuggleduck** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:37 am

You're a goldmine of information, Larry.

CarAudioGuru · Post by **CarAudioGuru** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:39 am

I got a MILLION of 'em

maka78 · Post by **maka78** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:40 am

Thanks for the answer Larry.

A general rule of thumb would then be, if an amp costs more, it is probably better. This might not be true all the time though, as some mark up their prices more than others **cough** JL **cough**.

PG was one of the best back in the day... what's regarded as one of the best amplifier brands now?

On another note, Alpine and Eclipse started using this new technology, IceD, a class D amp capable of competing with class A/B amps in SQ and as efficient as a class D amp - the best of both worlds, basically. Anyone know anything about them? Any good? Anyone hear them to compare?

Post by **stipud** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:44 am

More food for thought... here are some of Eric's awesome amp reviews comparing parts AND subjective testing. This should give you a basic gist of what it takes to make amps sound good.

I highly recommend you read this one at the very least:
http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html

Other goodies:
http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html
http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html
http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html
http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html
http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html
http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html

gkitching · Post by **gkitching** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:47 am

fuzzysnuggleduck wrote:You're a goldmine of information, Larry.

HAHA! You could say he's 'Full of it'! Actually I've heard several people say that!

But I don't think it was in the same context.

jab jab

Post by **bdubs767** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:53 am

CarAudioGuru wrote:ZPA's are still the BEST under $2,000 car audio amplifer ever built. Not quite up the HC-100 or THESIS HV Venti

But this amplifer is now ONLY $12,500.00 retial. So not in the same ball park

well what about the mph6300 ???

Post by **Bfowler** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:55 am

i dont know if it counts because you can't buy it even if you wanted to.

Post by **bdubs767** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:57 am

Bfowler wrote:i dont know if it counts because you can't buy it even if you wanted to.

still the best amp made....and If I'm not mistaken Larry designed it but I could be wrong.

CarAudioGuru · Post by **CarAudioGuru** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:00 am

Stupid go look at our THESIS, 6 -shielded Power supplies, 4 just for the output rails,
dual monorual and one for each positive and negative, plus 2 more shielded supplies
for the front end. And this is a stereo 400 watt per channel amplifier!

Solid State capacitors! 4 layer 4 mil thick copper clad PC board.
Dale emitter resistors,and the BIG ass Sanken outputs
(the kind used by KRELL and Mark Levinison

)

CarAudioGuru · Post by **CarAudioGuru** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:08 am

Remember I am the "idea" guy. I only know enough to be REALLY dangerous. Not a EE.

I have patents on the "design", cosmetically and mechically for the ZX and ZPA. And 5 Design and Engineering Awards.

Put an engineer? Only if I wear one of those funny striped hats Train enginners were.

Whoooo Whoooo!!!!!!

(But I'll go toe to toe on theory versus practical anyday with any engineer!!)

Casue like I say in my trainings..."" I went to MIT!! Ya know...Mistakes I've Tried"

Been there and DONE that for sure

Post by **kg1961** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:15 am

so with all this being said Everyone know I use and owned alot of pg amps
but for sound I love my wifes set up
I know.. jl slash 300/4-alpine dd drive mids/tweeter and 500/1 2 10w3 jl's
clarion drx955mc deck
it very clean doesn't need alot of current and works for all music..
I have always been a fan of pg, jl subs so this year I going to try a 10w7,cyclone and ti 12 to see what I like

here is a great review on the jl amps
http://www.carsound.com/reviews/amps/jl_3004.html

CarAudioGuru · Post by **CarAudioGuru** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:15 am

Actually Ben Heil and myself built ALL the parts to that beast.

MPH-6300

Was a killer "Art project" for sure

I machined all the standoffs, metal cages, 25 pounds of 1/4 thick copper bussbars, etc.

Then spent 3 days with NO sleep at CES putting it together.

36 -TO3's for switchers AND outputs.

Post by **stipud** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:29 am

CarAudioGuru wrote:Stupid go look at our THESIS, 6 -shielded Power supplies, 4 just for the output rails,
dual monorual and one for each positive and negative, plus 2 more shielded supplies
for the front end. And this is a stereo 400 watt per channel amplifier!

Solid State capacitors! 4 layer 4 mil thick copper clad PC board.
Dale emitter resistors,and the BIG ass Sanken outputs
(the kind used by KRELL and Mark Levinison )

Oh I've seen it alright. The show car that came through here (300C) had three of them in it. Much smaller in person than I thought they were!

I tried to go to the Audison dealer here to audition a few amps and pick up some assorted terminals for a friend. They tried to charge me $80 for a single 0 gauge connector. After I laughed that off, I asked how much the entry line Audison amps costed, to which they replied "more than you can afford buddy". They refused to let me audition them.

What Audison amp would you put up against, say, a ZX450?

gkitching · Post by **gkitching** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:35 am

Well, based on the 'least amount of compnants in the signal chain' theory, this little baby we installed today would hands down be the best amp EVAR!

Post by **stipud** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:44 am

They could have made that amp on a 2" square

Post by **Bfowler** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:39 am

no wai tom...it needs the heatsink to for all the power its makin

shaheen · Post by **shaheen** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:48 am

I see ur pyramid and raise you a KOAC

Thanks Larry for all that information , I think the LRX would competye directly with a Zx450 , although I find the Audisons do get quite hot.

The New LRX5 channel is a work of art, trully it is , Class AB on the 4 channels with Cladd D on the sub and makes 1000rms on the sub.

I have a VRX4.300 which has a stunning board layout, you can see why you pay so much for these amps,

CarAudioGuru · Post by **CarAudioGuru** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:00 pm

Compete with ZX450??

Probably I would say an LRx 4.1K

2 X 130 and 2 X 140

http://www.audison.eu/index_main.php?Section=LRX41k

Not small like the ZX, but real powerful. Don;t have any issues with bad pots either

Power wise probably the LRx4.5

http://www.audison.eu/index_main.php?Section=LRX45

VRx is more like the ZPA's. But we just disontinued them last month

The NEW TH line is coming in, and ONLY starting at $2600.00

Got to love the Italians.

(I got NOTHING to do with the Canadian market!!!!)

Post by **fuzzysnuggleduck** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:08 pm

stipud wrote:I tried to go to the Audison dealer here to audition a few amps and pick up some assorted terminals for a friend. They tried to charge me $80 for a single 0 gauge connector. After I laughed that off, I asked how much the entry line Audison amps costed, to which they replied "more than you can afford buddy". They refused to let me audition them.

I guess the Canadian dealers only sell to douche bags.