Product Suggestions

MacG467 · Post by **MacG467** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:51 pm

dBincognito wrote:I have 3 PLD-1's instead

DAMN! I thought I was the only one.

Yes, I'm a newbie here.

KUB3 · Post by **KUB3** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:11 am

Personally I want an MS amp for 2010 - ideally white like the old look, with beautiful circuit board craftsmanship, built to last! I also want it compact as well, so it fit's easily in a boot. A bit like the old MS-275 in size, or perhaps a tad bigger is ok. Perhaps the Brax Matrix X4 is the best all round package out there right now. It's just too expensive. I reckon £700-1000 UK Sterling is about as much as I'd want to spend on a 2 channel amp. Maybe £1500 tops for a 4 channel amp.

NewOldStock · Post by **NewOldStock** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:30 am

KUB3 wrote:Personally I want an MS amp for 2010 - ideally white like the old look, with beautiful circuit board craftsmanship, built to last! I also want it compact as well, so it fit's easily in a boot. A bit like the old MS-275 in size, or perhaps a tad bigger is ok. Perhaps the Brax Matrix X4 is the best all round package out there right now. It's just too expensive. I reckon £700-1000 UK Sterling is about as much as I'd want to spend on a 2 channel amp. Maybe £1500 tops for a 4 channel amp.

x2 - I couldnt agree more.

Something akin to the gold boards with good layouts that you can put plexi-on and run on display. Dont have to be gold - but that would be best IMO - there are lots of things/colors/etc... that would make the amp look great.

dako · Post by **dako** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:50 pm

MW3 wrote:If you like the T1200.1.

There will be three different amps to choose from in the 1000 to 1500 watt range with varying footprints, some big, some very small.

They will all be 1 ohm stable amplifiers.

Nice! Space is definitely at a premium in my ride and the 1200.1 fit the bill perfectly for 2 12" RSDc subs. Definitely looking forward to the rebirth of PG.

deathcloud · Post by **deathcloud** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:25 pm

Yea stable at 1ohm is sooooo sexy. Thats what I'm talking about. I just hope that going to 1ohm won't bring that much more heat. and problems.

oldskoolmseriesfan · Post by **oldskoolmseriesfan** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:56 pm

deathcloud wrote:Yea stable at 1ohm is sooooo sexy. Thats what I'm talking about. I just hope that going to 1ohm won't bring that much more heat. and problems.

Im sure that they would address the extra heat problems, by way of fans or other means, I believe Audison uses a convection cooling system?

dBincognito · Post by **dBincognito** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:36 am

NewOldStock wrote:
KUB3 wrote:Personally I want an MS amp for 2010 - ideally white like the old look, with beautiful circuit board craftsmanship, built to last! I also want it compact as well, so it fit's easily in a boot. A bit like the old MS-275 in size, or perhaps a tad bigger is ok. Perhaps the Brax Matrix X4 is the best all round package out there right now. It's just too expensive. I reckon £700-1000 UK Sterling is about as much as I'd want to spend on a 2 channel amp. Maybe £1500 tops for a 4 channel amp.
x2 - I couldnt agree more.

Something akin to the gold boards with good layouts that you can put plexi-on and run on display. Dont have to be gold - but that would be best IMO - there are lots of things/colors/etc... that would make the amp look great.

The price of gold has been on the rise for quite some time and continues to go up, gold plating boards could add over $150 to the price tag of the amps. I would like to see gold plated boards on the LE amp/s, optical inputs would be nice as well. Gold plating all the amps would take the retail price through the roof, let's put PG back on the map before we worry about all that.

You can get a idea of cost here

http://www.goldphoenixpcb.biz/quote2.php

Post by **stipud** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:32 am

KUB3 wrote:Personally I want an MS amp for 2010 - ideally white like the old look, with beautiful circuit board craftsmanship, built to last! I also want it compact as well, so it fit's easily in a boot. A bit like the old MS-275 in size, or perhaps a tad bigger is ok. Perhaps the Brax Matrix X4 is the best all round package out there right now. It's just too expensive. I reckon £700-1000 UK Sterling is about as much as I'd want to spend on a 2 channel amp. Maybe £1500 tops for a 4 channel amp.

Let's not forget they did bring the MS amps back with the 10th anniversary series and they were a total sales flop. A modernized amp may do better, but clearly if MS was the answer those 10th anniversaries would have sold like hotcakes.

I agree with the Brax sentiments though... My "cheap" little Helix is a marvel of engineering, just like a scaled down MS.

Post by **Eric D** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:13 am

The TA amps cost too much at that point in the market.

If you want a MS amp, PG needs to source a MSTA clone from China. And it would need some cost saving features like RCA jacks on the board, and likely speaker terminals on the board as well.

There is nothing all that expensive about the MS amps, I doubt gold plating would really cost all that much in volume. Their expense is likely in the labor to make them, screwing down every transistor and putting the speaker leads in there plus soldering the RCA terminals on is a ton of labor.

KUB3 · Post by **KUB3** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:59 am

I wouldn't buy a PG amp made in China. Or one with any SMT either. If it's not handmade in the USA it's not PG. imo

Post by **stipud** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:15 am

KUB3 wrote:I wouldn't buy a PG amp made in China. Or one with any SMT either. If it's not handmade in the USA it's not PG. imo

Well, nice knowin ya

KUB3 · Post by **KUB3** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:58 am

Post by **ttocs** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:05 pm

stipud wrote:
KUB3 wrote:I wouldn't buy a PG amp made in China. Or one with any SMT either. If it's not handmade in the USA it's not PG. imo
Well, nice knowin ya

It has been tough for all of us to adjust

...........

deathcloud · Post by **deathcloud** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:07 pm

Me being one prime example of getting something made in south korea product. Being junk.... but I do have bad luck. However buying something lets say for 300 bucks for something made in china versus paying for USA product prolly going to 1200 bucks is a big diff. I'm sorry but if you are a big company then out sourcing is a must. Its bad to admit but thats why u see a lot of companies doing that. their profits skyrocket.

If you want something made in the usa, then find a company that builds in the usa and pay that arm and a leg.

Yes it sounds like I don't like having americans with jobs here doing the work, but it sucks that out sourcing is the answer to getting huge profits. Its just not logical to hire someone for 50 an hr for a chinese person who can do it for 5 an hr.

So enough with "wishing" and "praying" for USA products... it is not going to happen. Unless you want them to do it and have their company fail. Which I don't.

I say we stop judging and wait for the new amps come out. That should be enough proof. If they are solid... No problems. And great price. END OF STORY. END OF THE USA VS CHINA WAR.

Like stipud said, they can make shit as good as us and they have really stringent work ethics.

oldschoolfan · Post by **oldschoolfan** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:40 pm

This may be a bit of a rant but bear with me.

Sure China's quality has come forward light years. We have given them the technology and the money to make it happen. Plus we have demanded it. It being higher quality and low prices. It is not just about quality and skyrocketing profits. What ever happened to being passionate about what you do? What about a conscience? How much is a reasonable profit margin? Why fund Communism?

The whole reason Phoenix gold and I will mention Rockford Fosgate and other low volume, at the time, electronics manufacturers, have the reputations that they do is because of the passion they had back in the 80's and 90's. They had engineers that were in love with car audio. They wanted to build the best sounding, best looking and coolest product they could possibly come up with. Yes they cost a lot but those products are what made them and gave them their reputations. The best way to be in control of all aspects of your product as in design, build quality, service and repair and customer service is to have it all in one place. I know from experience that people on any assembly line feel a lot more pride when they can actually communicate with the designers and feel a part of the total product. What better way to make necessary adjustments and tweaks to a product than having the assembly right around the corner from the design team. There are too many overall benefits to functioning this way.

Companies need to start looking long term and not how much can I sell this week. We have destroyed our economy by cutting our manufacturing base in this country by more than half. I challenge all of you to look at everything you buy over the next week, whatever it is, and look at the label to see where it is made. All of those products used to be made by your neighbor or their neighbor here in the states. We are a consumer based nation and we consume like no other. Why cannot we employ our own out of work people and make products that we can once again be proud of?

Phoenix Gold set out to make the best possible product that the engineers could think up. They did it and most of us here on this forum are still using and or collecting those products from 15 to 20 years ago. There is a reason for that.

Aamp, if you want to make the highest possible profit margin, you know what to do.

If you want to make products that we can all be proud of and passionate about from designer to engineer, from assembly line to retailer and finally to the consumer and maybe the guy that buys that product from that consumer 15 years from now, you also know what to do.

bruther · Post by **bruther** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:55 pm

oldschoolfan wrote:This may be a bit of a rant but bear with me.

Sure China's quality has come forward light years. We have given them the technology and the money to make it happen. Plus we have demanded it. It being higher quality and low prices. It is not just about quality and skyrocketing profits. What ever happened to being passionate about what you do? What about a conscience? How much is a reasonable profit margin? Why fund Communism?

The whole reason Phoenix gold and I will mention Rockford Fosgate and other low volume, at the time, electronics manufacturers, have the reputations that they do is because of the passion they had back in the 80's and 90's. They had engineers that were in love with car audio. They wanted to build the best sounding, best looking and coolest product they could possibly come up with. Yes they cost a lot but those products are what made them and gave them their reputations. The best way to be in control of all aspects of your product as in design, build quality, service and repair and customer service is to have it all in one place. I know from experience that people on any assembly line feel a lot more pride when they can actually communicate with the designers and feel a part of the total product. What better way to make necessary adjustments and tweaks to a product than having the assembly right around the corner from the design team. There are too many overall benefits to functioning this way.

Companies need to start looking long term and not how much can I sell this week. We have destroyed our economy by cutting our manufacturing base in this country by more than half. I challenge all of you to look at everything you buy over the next week, whatever it is, and look at the label to see where it is made. All of those products used to be made by your neighbor or their neighbor here in the states. We are a consumer based nation and we consume like no other. Why cannot we employ our own out of work people and make products that we can once again be proud of?

Phoenix Gold set out to make the best possible product that the engineers could think up. They did it and most of us here on this forum are still using and or collecting those products from 15 to 20 years ago. There is a reason for that.

Aamp, if you want to make the highest possible profit margin, you know what to do.

If you want to make products that we can all be proud of and passionate about from designer to engineer, from assembly line to retailer and finally to the consumer and maybe the guy that buys that product from that consumer 15 years from now, you also know what to do.

Definition of a Business-
A business (also called a company, enterprise or firm) is a legally recognized organization designed to provide goods and/or services to consumers.[1] Businesses are predominant in capitalist economies, most being privately owned and formed to earn profit that will increase the wealth of its owners and grow the business itself. The owners and operators of a business have as one of their main objectives the receipt or generation of a financial return in exchange for work and acceptance of risk.

Let's key up one issue- Profit. If a business is not profitable it is incapable or unable to continue as a business. Phoenix Gold used to be a publicly traded company. Go look at their financial 10q's, 10k's and 8k's( easy to pull up on Edgar online). They were very rarely profitable.

oldschoolfan wrote: We have destroyed our economy by cutting our manufacturing base in this country by more than half.

This is actually false.....Our manufacturing base has actually grown substantially over the prior 3 decades.

Fact- we have actually increased our share of manufacturing relative to total GDP growth over the past 3 years.

Our economy is growing more on the servicing side in proportion to manufacturing. Our actual per capita incomes have risen substantially and with a rise in lower and middle class lower wages, manufacturing jobs are usually positioned for a rising lower class sector. In other words.....us "the consumer" are demanding higher wages and as such "manufacturing is going to those who are willing to work for less". The actually call this the "global demand rebalance". It's happening everywhere and not just here in the US. When incomes are rising, people are looking to add more services than goods. Much of our economy and the global economy is growing because of the demand for services (ie: health care, education, internet, cell phone, insurance, financial advice, ). When incomes rise, so does the standard of living. When standard of living rises then people demand more services.

Sorry, didn't mean to go into a economic forum on Thanksgiving.
Happy Turkey Day.

Post by **Bfowler** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:59 pm

oldschoolfan wrote:
Aamp, if you want to make the highest possible profit margin, you know what to do.

point of order....do you know what pg's books looked like during that era? pg never was known for being financially successful

but you are absolutely right about the key to success being making products that YOU are excited about.

bruther · Post by **bruther** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:16 am

There is a famous story about the free-market economist, Milton Friedman, during his travels to India back in the 1960s. Professor Friedman was on the site of a major construction project that employed thousands of men doing excavation work with shovels. The head engineer for the project was showing the professor around and answering his questions, appearing quite proud of the scale of the massive undertaking and the multitude of jobs it provided. Not noticing any heavy machinery such as bulldozers, the perplexed Nobel- Laureate-to-be asked the supervisor why the men were using shovels rather than mechanical excavation equipment that could do the work of thousands of men.
The supervisor smiled smugly and practically bursting with pride told the naive professor that by using shovels rather than bulldozers the project employed thousands more people. Upon hearing this altruistic rationale, the good professor quipped, Why not hire a million people
and give them spoons?”

Post by **Eric D** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:33 pm

"A million with spoons" is one of the best lines I have read in the past year. Thanks for that, I love it and will be mentioning it to everyone I know.

Also, I don't think a problem is $50/hr here vs $5/hr there. It is more like $5/hr here and $0.05/hr there. American wages have started to come down a lot, but they have a very long way to go to compete with China.

I try to keep up on this since it directly affects me (I am unemployed from manufacturing), but last I knew China was very restrictive on what USA products are sold there vs what they sell to us. I think "free trade" has not been so free and we are competing in the world market with one hand tied behind our back.

I really don't mind China making stuff for us, so long as they can buy products we make. I know they don't have the incomes we do here, but with so many more people, they still have a lot of potential to consume American goods.

oldschoolfan · Post by **oldschoolfan** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:42 pm

Eric, you are so correct about the "free trade". That is the last thing our trade is. It is so unfortunate that the hard working folks in China are not reaping the fruits of their labor. Yes they have so much potential to be a big player in purchasing our goods. Unfortunately their media is censored and filtered and well, it is a Communist country. Those in charge are becoming very rich while the masses are working for peanuts.

oldschoolfan · Post by **oldschoolfan** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:55 pm

Bruther, I should would like to know what all this increased manufacturing is that you speak of so I can start to buy that instead of all the other stuff out there. Is it clothing, textiles, electronics? Maybe auto parts? I know home furnishings. No, housewares, shoes maybe, or those cellphones you mentioned? No, sorry. I have to stop. I got us off topic and I apologize to all. My bust.

KUB3 · Post by **KUB3** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:35 pm

Genesis in the UK manage to make some well respected hand made amps. They are ideally priced and so are rather popular in the UK. A lot of audiophiles over here almost seem to have Genesis as their default choice. Not just because they are well made, but also because they are actually hand made here. It's a very strong selling point that marks them out against the sea of other imports.

I'd have thought PG could have emulated this in the USA to great effect.

Either way, good luck to PG. Maybe fans of the old school, with old fashioned ideals, are a dying breed anyway

bruther · Post by **bruther** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:08 pm

oldschoolfan wrote:Bruther, I should would like to know what all this increased manufacturing is that you speak of so I can start to buy that instead of all the other stuff out there. Is it clothing, textiles, electronics? Maybe auto parts? I know home furnishings. No, housewares, shoes maybe, or those cellphones you mentioned? No, sorry. I have to stop. I got us off topic and I apologize to all. My bust.

In 2007 the US made 1.831 trillion dollars worth of "manufactured" goods.
It's gotta be something in that list of yours.

Post by **fuzzysnuggleduck** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:15 pm

bruther wrote:
oldschoolfan wrote:Bruther, I should would like to know what all this increased manufacturing is that you speak of so I can start to buy that instead of all the other stuff out there. Is it clothing, textiles, electronics? Maybe auto parts? I know home furnishings. No, housewares, shoes maybe, or those cellphones you mentioned? No, sorry. I have to stop. I got us off topic and I apologize to all. My bust.

In 2007 the US made 1.831 trillion dollars worth of "manufactured" goods.
It's gotta be something in that list of yours.

Does that include millitary contracts for "manufactured" goods as well?

bruther · Post by **bruther** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:57 pm

fuzzysnuggleduck wrote:
bruther wrote:
oldschoolfan wrote:Bruther, I should would like to know what all this increased manufacturing is that you speak of so I can start to buy that instead of all the other stuff out there. Is it clothing, textiles, electronics? Maybe auto parts? I know home furnishings. No, housewares, shoes maybe, or those cellphones you mentioned? No, sorry. I have to stop. I got us off topic and I apologize to all. My bust.

In 2007 the US made 1.831 trillion dollars worth of "manufactured" goods.
It's gotta be something in that list of yours.
Does that include millitary contracts for "manufactured" goods as well?

1.831 trillion would include all goods manufactured in the borders of the US..whether domestically owned or foreign owned.