"rSD comp tweeter" A-pillar mounting question

eyesofra · Post by **eyesofra** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:29 am

hi guys,
from all the feedback i know that the rsd comp are great value for money...
but i just cant get the proper imaging tht i want and the music seems to be directional...
my dealer suggested using higher range comp ( xenon ) if i wanted better imaging...

but just to get second opinion i visited a another stereo dealer who suggested that i try mounting the tweeter on the A-pillar with some fibre work.He said this could help with the imaging.

Now can this help and how should i place the tweeter on the A-pillar. Should it be firing towards each other ( as in the digram below) or tilted a little towards passenger ?

I've pasted a pic on how the components are mounted in my car.

I've wired the tweeters out-of-phase at the x-over and there are no rear speakers.
There's one rSD 12" in the trunk firing backwards . ( not towards the cabin ).

Pls help guys.

Post by **VW337** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:25 am

Is the whole set wired out of phase currently or just the tweets or just the mids?

If you have that much space between drivers it is best to wire the nearest driver to your ears out of phase. This may and may not always work. The biggest issue you have here is the difference in mounting plane angles, this is gonna be a tough fix.

Firstly How is your mid mounted, is it deadened at all?

444 FED · Post by **444 FED** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:48 am

I've "mounted" my tweets at the base of my A-pillars. (Mounted in quotation marks because I'm using pieces of back strapping and two sided tape

).
I have them in this temp mount to test and try different angles, though they've been this way for a few months.

Just like a mechanics car, an installers car is never built.

They are at the base of the A-pillar, and pointed back and up, slightly forward and above the opposite passenger closest ear. So the right side tweeter is pointed almost at the left side passenger right eye, if that makes sense.

I get excellant imaging and seperation, and one of the best center images I've ever heard.

My test track for staging, is from The Phantom Of the Opera, Canadian Cast, track 8 Notes/Prima Donna. There are 8 Characters (singers) all at different points accross the stage, with a few of them moving during the track. To have each of them at thier seperate and proper places accross my dash is just a phenominal experiance.

Also on the same CD, there is an EXCCELANT high frequency system test, and will put your tweeters through thier paces, all but two tweeters so far have broken up at higher listen levels. The track is track 4, Think Of Me. There is a point where Christian (Played by Rebecca Cain), hits an extremmly high note, and gets there quickly. It's an amazing sounding passage, and the only singer that I've heard perform this part without having to break up the raise in pitch into a few different steps.

I'll try and get some pics of the angle and placement of my tweeters, but I need to set up my new webspace on the new server, and will have to wait until I'm at home, probably Monday, since I'm away for most of the weekend.

Post by **bdubs767** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:11 am

eyesofra wrote:hi guys,
from all the feedback i know that the rsd comp are great value for money...
but i just cant get the proper imaging tht i want and the music seems to be directional...
my dealer suggested using higher range comp ( xenon ) if i wanted better imaging...

your dealer is drunk, the speaker doesnt matter, it's the placement. RSd > Xenon every one here will agree w/ that.

but just to get second opinion i visited a another stereo dealer who suggested that i try mounting the tweeter on the A-pillar with some fibre work.He said this could help with the imaging.

still drunk, mounting tweeter as close as possible to the mid is by far is the most important thing you can do for imaging. Having the tweeter up gigh w/ only help w/ the height of your soundstage

Now can this help and how should i place the tweeter on the A-pillar. Should it be firing towards each other ( as in the digram below) or tilted a little towards passenger ?

If you do mount the tweeters up in the pillars, the best advice I can give you is try it at different angles and see what you like before you start glassing.

HoseHead · Post by **HoseHead** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:14 am

First of all, your steering wheel is on the wrong side of the car.

My system drawing attached for reference. Hopefully you can see it. It's a Visio file converted to jpg.

I too did the temporary mount of my tweets to test for best location. I ended up mounting them where the A-pillar meets the side window. Each tweet points at the opposite seat position and are in-phase with the mid drivers.
Trunk mounted rear firing subs are also in phase. I also run a complete rear stage with mids and tweets as well. Again, the rear tweets point directly to the opposite front seat position.
Each audio channel has it's own distinct ampflier channel. I am NOT using any passive crossover networks. I use a PG 406A active crossover configured 2-way pushing distinct low, mid and high frequencies to the appropriate amp/driver. This allows me to custom tailor imaging to my preference.
Amps are set near flat, with a slight gain for the mids.

Perhaps fire your tweets more directly to the listener and not off the windshield?

Post by **bdubs767** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:16 am

like errin said your PLD are a killer and no matter what set you have mounted that way will be a tough fix, despite what your dealer thinks even a rainbow ref set mounted like that wouldn't image properly.

Does your head unit have any TA? This could help a little...

444 FED · Post by **444 FED** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:20 am

bdubs767 wrote:
eyesofra wrote:hi guys,
from all the feedback i know that the rsd comp are great value for money...
but i just cant get the proper imaging tht i want and the music seems to be directional...
my dealer suggested using higher range comp ( xenon ) if i wanted better imaging...
your dealer is drunk, the speaker doesnt matter, it's the placement. RSd > Xenon every one here will agree w/ that.

but just to get second opinion i visited a another stereo dealer who suggested that i try mounting the tweeter on the A-pillar with some fibre work.He said this could help with the imaging.
still drunk, mounting tweeter as close as possible to the mid is by far is the most important thing you can do for imaging. Having the tweeter up gigh w/ only help w/ the height of your soundstage

I used to believe those exact same things. I have heard vast improvments, and opposite sometimes, just by changing speakers, especially the tweeters. Dispersion characterisics, materials, size, etc, all have an influence on how it will sound in a vehicle.
That said, mounting is IMO the most important part, even a poor quality speaker can sound good with a better mounting angle, etc.

I haven't had any personal experiance with the two sets mentioned, so I can't comment on which I would use.

I used to scream that the tweeter has to be as close to the mid as possible, used to absolutly wonder why people would seperate them so much, then realized they are called "seperates" for a reason.

What I have found with my testing is not that they need to be close to the mid, what should actually be said is that the distance from the mid to the ear should be as close as possible to that of the tweeter, and visa versa. The tweerter itself seems to have a much larger influence on staging than the mid, due to the dispersin characteristics of mod=st mids and the fact that even mids start becoming less directional, than the sounds played through a tweeter.

dragonplayboy · Post by **dragonplayboy** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:33 am

bdubs767 wrote:like errin said your PLD are a killer and no matter what set you have mounted that way will be a tough fix, despite what your dealer thinks even a rainbow ref set mounted like that wouldn't image properly.

Does your head unit have any TA? This could help a little...

doesn't TA just make things worse when you do the tweets in the A pillar and woofs in the stock locations? Rick of RAAMaudio speaks highly of the tweets in the A pillar & out of phase method, I'm really curious how this install turns out though because I'm doing a very similar one in my wife's car.

Post by **bdubs767** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:37 am

444 FED wrote: I used to believe those exact same things. I have heard vast improvments, and opposite sometimes, just by changing speakers, especially the tweeters. Dispersion characterisics, materials, size, etc, all have an influence on how it will sound in a vehicle.

I suppose you could w/ speakers performing better off-axis, but what ever results you gain will be minimal and insignifcant to mounting drivers to reduce PLD as much as possible.

I used to scream that the tweeter has to be as close to the mid as possible, used to absolutly wonder why people would seperate them so much, then realized they are called "seperates" for a reason.
What I have found with my testing is not that they need to be close to the mid, what should actually be said is that the distance from the mid to the ear should be as close as possible to that of the tweeter, and visa versa. The tweerter itself seems to have a much larger influence on staging than the mid, due to the dispersin characteristics of mod=st mids and the fact that even mids start becoming less directional, than the sounds played through a tweeter.

Your avg person plays their mid in a 2-way up to 2.5khz to 3khz which a key freq that are directional, yet still the most important thing a user can do is REDUCE PLD. How does a user do this, in most cars the best way you can mount drivers is in kicks and close together. The only negative thing I can see from this is the driver blocking the drivers directly (brain fart forgot the tech term for this; want to say diffraction, though for some reason) and perhaps your stage height can be hurt, yet I found it easy w/ some eqing, playing w/ xover slopes that you can raise the stage height.

Ive tried three-way set ups, 2-way set ups all over the damn place in my car...what I've found to be the best for two way is simple both mounted in kicks. For three way mid and tweet in the kick w/ mid bass in the door. I really wanted to try tweet and mid in dash and then mid bass in kick as that is most likely optimal for everything but that was about the only set up I didn't try

Post by **bdubs767** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:39 am

dragonplayboy wrote:
bdubs767 wrote:like errin said your PLD are a killer and no matter what set you have mounted that way will be a tough fix, despite what your dealer thinks even a rainbow ref set mounted like that wouldn't image properly.

Does your head unit have any TA? This could help a little...
doesn't TA just make things worse when you do the tweets in the A pillar and woofs in the stock locations? Rick of RAAMaudio speaks highly of the tweets in the A pillar & out of phase method, I'm really curious how this install turns out though because I'm doing a very similar one in my wife's car.

IMO I dint see how TA could hurt, and helped when I did it in a set up like this. Only way I can see it hurting is if you have some nasty reflections which change the whole ball game.

444 FED · Post by **444 FED** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:02 am

bdubs767 wrote:Ive tried three-way set ups, 2-way set ups all over the damn place in my car...what I've found to be the best for two way is simple both mounted in kicks. For three way mid and tweet in the kick w/ mid bass in the door. I really wanted to try tweet and mid in dash and then mid bass in kick as that is most likely optimal for everything but that was about the only set up I didn't try

Just for clarification what is "PLD" and "TA", it seems that every forum has thier own anagrams anymore.

I've tried many set-ups as well, I have tried a 3way set-up with a 6.5 in each door, 4" on either end of the dash and tweet mounted off the A-pillar, above the mid. There were a couple problems with this. the car I installed it in placed the dash speakers close to the listeners. the windsheild wasn't like the current "cab forward" design that most manufactures are using now. It was a 1985 Buick Skyhawk, think 1990ish Cavalier/Sunbird, but with a different dash, that has the top of the dash sloped more from the base of the windsheild. I found that in my case it was easier to eliminate the 4s and place the tweeter under the dash facing the opposite passenger and left the mid in the door. Though some later experimentation though, I discovered that if I had just put my mids on a different angle, more vertical and direct on-axis listening, instead of using the windsheild to reflect the sound.
I've considered going back to a 3 way set-up in my '98 Malibu, but I don't want pods at either end of my dash, and with my later plans for the car rebuilding the dash now doesn't make sense, since I probably won't have a stereo or much of a stereo in it in the later transformation.

I also find kick panels are terrible when there is more than on person in the car. The opposite side tweeter always seems to be blocked by the legs of the opposite passenger, and destroys the imaging and staging at that point. A-pillar mounte tweets will ALWAYS be able to be heard by both passengers. The only drawback is the highly reflective area they are in and pointed to.
Even with my tweeters placed at the bottom of my dash, above the kick panel area, they would get blocked by legs, and would get kicked often when people were getting into and out of the car.

I dunno, if I'm going to keep the "seperates" ALWAYS right beside or near the mid, I'll just use Co-axes. *shrug*

eyesofra · Post by **eyesofra** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:01 am

only the tweets are wired out pf phase,the mids and the incoming to the x-over are all wired in phase.
Same goes with the sub in the trunk.

I've deadened my door heavily with dynamat extreme . Used like 2 pcs per door. But the amount of space within the door is quite limited cause there is this barrier exactly in between.

How can i improve things here ... ?? very confused...

444 FED · Post by **444 FED** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:17 am

Can we use peroper terminaology here? You have your components wired in or out of polarity. Phase is time dependand and two speakers wired out of polarity can be in phase.

Basically what everyone is saying is to try a new tweeter mounting position. Using some sort of temporary "mount", two sided tape, "Blu tak", "Gorilla snot/Acumpucky/that black shit", back straps, or some combination of anything to can find will help you determine how or where to mount the tweeters for best overall sound.

HoseHead · Post by **HoseHead** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:11 am

Velcro. Home Depot......

Correct. Phase and polarity are not the same.

Polarity is as FED described where the driver will respond in the opposite direction when current is applied. Is there an application where this is beneficial?

Phase is an active process where the signal is delivered to a driver at a different time in reference to the other drivers in order to compensate for the unique physical parameters of the vehicle cabin.

HH

eyesofra · Post by **eyesofra** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:26 am

bdubs767 wrote:like errin said your PLD are a killer and no matter what set you have mounted that way will be a tough fix, despite what your dealer thinks even a rainbow ref set mounted like that wouldn't image properly.

Does your head unit have any TA? This could help a little...

PLD - mounting plane ?
just trying to understand here, what makes the PLD bad in my car

can u pls suggest other ways to improve the mounting angle and improve the imaging.... anything at all to save my stereo ?

the only option i can see so far is to try out the A-pillar mounting
and there's no TA in my HU....

n/b : and regarding the driver seat,well that's nothing wrong with it .
Its left-side drive back here.

Post by **smgreen20** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:32 am

My stage heigth is good, jusy my imaging is to much to the left and the TA on the HU isn't correcting it to its fullest. So I called up the nearest Dynaudio dealer near me, which happens to be about 3 hrs away) and was talking to one of the guys there. He told me to move the tweeters up even higher on my A pillar. I questioned him on this, he replyed that it sounds odd (having them that high, not the actual sound) btu that coupled w/them being pointed at each other, not the windshield, not at the driver/passenger or where else, but at each other. For my particular vehichle, 2k GMC Sierra, it sounds superb. While I haven't done it yet cause it's to damn cold all of a sudden, had a few 70 degree days, but will do so when it warms up to at least 60+ degrees. Hope this helps.

OH, BTW, the guy I was talking to, IS one of the SQ judges for MECA. So I will take what he says to heart and apply it, velcro first of course.

eyesofra · Post by **eyesofra** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:53 am

if this guy is a SQ judge than he will know what he's talking bout rite ..?

but guys here were talkin bout how the mounting distance between tweets and mids would degrade the imaging ...so does anyone know how this type of install actually works then ??

wow..home hi-fi is definitely a breeze compared to getting this thing up...

Capital_M · Post by **Capital_M** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:55 am

eyesofra wrote:if this guy is a SQ judge than he will know what he's talking bout rite ..?

but guys here were talkin bout how the mounting distance between tweets and mids would degrade the imaging ...so does anyone know how this type of install actually works then ??

wow..home hi-fi is definitely a breeze compared to getting this thing up...

Cars are the worst place you could ever build a system

eyesofra · Post by **eyesofra** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:01 am

very true....very true...

anymore ideas to save me guys...pls help

Post by **bdubs767** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:33 am

god damn got some reading to do you bastards are quick

PLD= Path Length Differences

TA= Time Alignment

eyesofra · Post by **eyesofra** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:38 am

path length difference...so thats the problem in my install?
what can i do bdups ?
would it do any good if i mount the tweet on the pillar where it gives me an equal length as to where the mid is ??

Post by **bdubs767** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:41 am

444 FED wrote:
bdubs767 wrote:Ive tried three-way set ups, 2-way set ups all over the damn place in my car...what I've found to be the best for two way is simple both mounted in kicks. For three way mid and tweet in the kick w/ mid bass in the door. I really wanted to try tweet and mid in dash and then mid bass in kick as that is most likely optimal for everything but that was about the only set up I didn't try
Just for clarification what is "PLD" and "TA", it seems that every forum has thier own anagrams anymore.

I've tried many set-ups as well, I have tried a 3way set-up with a 6.5 in each door, 4" on either end of the dash and tweet mounted off the A-pillar, above the mid. There were a couple problems with this. the car I installed it in placed the dash speakers close to the listeners. the windsheild wasn't like the current "cab forward" design that most manufactures are using now. It was a 1985 Buick Skyhawk, think 1990ish Cavalier/Sunbird, but with a different dash, that has the top of the dash sloped more from the base of the windsheild. I found that in my case it was easier to eliminate the 4s and place the tweeter under the dash facing the opposite passenger and left the mid in the door. Though some later experimentation though, I discovered that if I had just put my mids on a different angle, more vertical and direct on-axis listening, instead of using the windsheild to reflect the sound.
I've considered going back to a 3 way set-up in my '98 Malibu, but I don't want pods at either end of my dash, and with my later plans for the car rebuilding the dash now doesn't make sense, since I probably won't have a stereo or much of a stereo in it in the later transformation.

I also find kick panels are terrible when there is more than on person in the car. The opposite side tweeter always seems to be blocked by the legs of the opposite passenger, and destroys the imaging and staging at that point. A-pillar mounte tweets will ALWAYS be able to be heard by both passengers. The only drawback is the highly reflective area they are in and pointed to.
Even with my tweeters placed at the bottom of my dash, above the kick panel area, they would get blocked by legs, and would get kicked often when people were getting into and out of the car.

I dunno, if I'm going to keep the "seperates" ALWAYS right beside or near the mid, I'll just use Co-axes. *shrug*

well I think we can agree on this...

CAR AUDIO IS ABOUT MINIMIZING THE DAMAGE. Everything within car audio is catch 22. I agree with some points you made there but I am just not willing to seperate the tweeter and mid as IMO it does far more damage seperating them, then it does when a passengers once in rare while blocks them. Also there is no way to beat the PLD that kicks have to offer.

I wish come one made a great coax driver I I would would use it w/o a doubt but still to this date there is not a great one yet offered to match the performance of drives I have or had.

Post by **bdubs767** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:51 am

eyesofra wrote:path length difference...so thats the problem in my install?
what can i do bdups ?
would it do any good if i mount the tweet on the pillar where it gives me an equal length as to where the mid is ??

no pld is refering to driver distanace from each other from L to R. Like for instance a tweeter mounted on the driver side of an a-pillar will be say 20" away from the drivers head, while the passenger side tweeter will be mounted lets say 36" away from the drivers head. This causes a number of problems, and TA is only bandid so IMO PLD are critical. Then once you sepearte your tweeters from mids you have 4 different PLD instead of two making it very hetic. The best installs I have heard have been the ones that minimize PLD plain and simple, ever time they win.

So basically what you want for the best staging and imaging is find the place in your car where you can get the most depth, width, least amount of reflections, hieght, and minizied PLD. The best place for all these factors is in the kicks. The kicks are the best spot for all of those factors other then stage hieght, which can be over come w/ angles and EQ.

eyesofra · Post by **eyesofra** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:56 am

can we then just mount the tweets on the door panel , just on top of the mid driver ( as in the pic above ). Do ppl do these kindda install ?
This puts all on the same plane and minimizes the distance between the drivers just as the kick panel rite.

what kind of sound field this install produce ? since all type of install has its -ve and +ive sides too it .

I cant go the kick panel way cause then i will have a lot ppl kicking on it...

( got to carry passengers quite often )

Post by **bdubs767** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:02 am

eyesofra wrote:can we then just mount the tweets on the door panel , just on top of the mid driver ( as in the pic above ). Do ppl do these kindda install ?
This puts all on the same plane and minimizes the distance between the drivers just as the kick panel rite.

what kind of sound field this install produce ? since all type of install has its -ve and +ive sides too it .

I cant go the kick panel way cause then i will have a lot ppl kicking on it...( got to carry passengers quite often )

wait to see my kicks i plan to do tomorrow. Ill have pics monday.

"rSD comp tweeter" A-pillar mounting question

"rSD comp tweeter" A-pillar mounting question

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Re: "rSD comp tweeter" A-pillar mounting question

Re: "rSD comp tweeter" A-pillar mounting question

Re: "rSD comp tweeter" A-pillar mounting question

Re: "rSD comp tweeter" A-pillar mounting question