Tantrum 600.4 Blowing Fuses

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eulogious
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Tantrum 600.4 Blowing Fuses

Post by eulogious »

Hello All first post!

So I have finally gotten around to trying to figure out what is wrong with my tantrum 600.4 amp that I have. Here's it's symptoms. When I had it installed in my car as soon as I turned it on, it would blow both of the 30amp fuses in the amp itself. I then removed the amp from the car and took it inside. I took the amp apart to look for anything that was obviously blown ( have experience with electronic components as well as good soldering skills) and I couldn't see anything that was obviously blown. I then put the amp back together and tested the amp outside of the car to eliminate my wiring in the car being the culprit. I tested it with a "jumppack" I connected two wires up to the positve end of the jumppack (1 for power, the other for remote on), and the other end to the ground on the jumppack. After turning the jumppack on, it takes about 5 seconds for the 2 fuses to blow, but they blow. So I know that it was not my wiring in the car that made the amp go "pop".

I have had the amp in 2 different cars, and in both cars for at least 2 years with out issues. Granted every once in a while I would hit thermal cutout from it getting to hot. The last time I was using it I honestly don't remember if I was listening to the music loud or not, but it just quit working. I think it just wouldn't turn on anymore after shutting it off one day.

From the little bit of research that I have done on this, it looks to be one of two things that I blew. 1. My "fets" are blown. Whatever those are, I have looked and researched and can't get a good description of what they are or look like, or 2. One or more of my BJT's ( Bipolar Junction Transistor) are blown. I am not even sure where to begin to check these. This is my first time with messing around with AMP circuits and what not, but I am familiar with working with SOC boards and repairing such boards, so soldering and component removal are not an issue, I just need to know what to check/replace! Am I correct on my diagnosis? I can take pictures and post them as well to help out if needed.

Please point me in the correct direction so I don't have to go out and buy a new amp! Thanks all!
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Post by Bfowler »

they are electronicly very similer to the xs amps...which i have blown a ton of!

i would suspect all your power supply fets and the gate resistors for them are blown :(

they serve the same function as a BJT....(i dont think tantrums have them...but they could)



amp guts seems to be down...so i can't point out on a picture. the fets should have small heat sink plates screwed down over them
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Post by eulogious »

Bfowler wrote:they are electronicly very similer to the xs amps...which i have blown a ton of!

i would suspect all your power supply fets and the gate resistors for them are blown :(
Is this a hard repair or even repairable then? Judging from the sad face I am guessing it will be difficult :(
they serve the same function as a BJT....(i dont think tantrums have them...but they could)
BJT's came up in my research, but I really didn't know if I even had them or not, can someone confirm if I have them or not on my Tantrum Amp and if I need to worry about them?
amp guts seems to be down...so i can't point out on a picture. the fets should have small heat sink plates screwed down over them
Ok, I have taken the heat sink plates off to look at what was underneath them, and nothing looked blown. I take it those are the "fets", the "transistor" looking things under the heat sink plates? I have seen transistors blown before, and these didn't look blown at all. Now there was an area around 4 of them (2 pairs) that looked like it got real hot. Nothing out of the ordinary, just look like it got hotter than the rest. Could that be a sign? Thanks for the fast response!
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Post by Bfowler »

i dont think they are too hard to fix...i am worthless with a iron, but a few guys on the forum have fixed them relatively easily.

they might not be blown. but every time i have had my amp blowing fuses on turn on....thats what it has been

maybe some one can chime in on how to test them with a multimeter
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Post by eulogious »

Bfowler wrote:i dont think they are too hard to fix...i am worthless with a iron, but a few guys on the forum have fixed them relatively easily.

they might not be blown. but every time i have had my amp blowing fuses on turn on....thats what it has been

maybe some one can chime in on how to test them with a multimeter
Ok, so after some research, this is what I came up with to test it:
Jacampb2 wrote:As for the fets, the reason I said it is difficult to meter check them, is that the meter open circuit voltage that it uses to measure resistance can enhance the FET. Fet's are voltage mode devices w/ typically very low gate capacitance, and if all the leads are not connected when you test, just applying voltage to the drain/source junction can be enough to cause the gate capacitance to charge and the FET to switch on. You will see this as a steady decline in resistance if it switches on and a steady rise if your meter polarity causes it to switch off. There are dedicated instruments for checking fets, but you can rig something up with a 9V battery to enhance the fet and then measure resistance from drain to source. It should be near 0 ohms when fully enhanced. If I recall correctly, before I bought the instrument I used to use a 9V, - lead to source and + lead to gate, then measure resistance from drain to source, it should be 0. Reverse the 9V polarity and it should switch the fet off. Measure resistance again and you should have a very high resistance, above 1Mohm. If you measure source to drain instead of drain to source, most FETs will always conduct because they have an internal "freewheel" diode that always conducts in teh reverse direction. Again, you have to remove them to check them with this method.
Sound correct?

If this is the correct procedure, do I have to remove the fets from the board before testing them? Sounds like I do. And which ones should I test to start? I will get pics of my amps internals up here to help out with my questions. I just have to take the amp back apart :roll:
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Post by eulogious »

PICS!

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So after a bit more research I came to the conclusion that I should just replace all my caps, at least the "rail" caps and the "power supply" caps before I go trying to replace the "fets" (I took the heat sheild off what I think are the "fets" on the side of the board, these are also the ones that looked like they got hot, but they are not fried, at lease not by looking at them. Also all the other "fets" look the same way, I just didn't remove the heat sink plate off of them, but hey look the same).

I take it the "rail" caps are the 4 big ass caps grouped together, and the "power supply" caps are the caps that are grouped in pairs towards the front of the board? That's just a guess please correct me if I am wrong on this.

So replacing these caps should be straight forward. Can I use a solder sucker, the suction type? That's what I have used in that past with great results. Is there anything super special about these caps that I should know about? How about ordering them. I have a local electronics wholesaler that can get me any part I need so hopefully I can just buy "generic" caps and be good to go. Hopefully these pics will help someone point me the right direction as well!

I will say though, I am super impressed with the build quality and craftsmanship of this amp. I have abused this thing pretty hard over the years, and to see it this clean after that abuse (I have not cleaned the amp at ALL before taking these pics), really impresses me. I was just about to throw this thing away before I found this forum, so hopefully I get it going again! Especially after seeing how well the product has held up over the years, I hope to get many more out of this great amp. Thanks!
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MOAR PIKTARS!!

Post by eulogious »

MOAR PIKTARS!!

So I decided to remove all my caps today just to check to see if they were leaking on the bottom. Nope not for me. I am going to replace all these caps just because they are 7 years old, and the amp got HOT at times, so it can't hurt it to replace all the caps.

What's the likely hood of the cap going bad, but not showing any physical signs of failing? Anyone know?

Here's some pics of the board with the caps off, and the holes with all the solder removed. This took me about 30 min to do all this.

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The last photo here is what I think are the "fets" is this what they are (the first 3 from the right, the only group of 3)? If so where do I order them?

I am just going to replace all of them with new ones and be done with it. That way the fets and the caps are all new. Then if the amp still blows, then I have bigger problems :|

Is there any way to test the amp with the caps off to see if it's still blowing the fuses? probably won't do a thing since all the circuits won't be connected, but just curious before I go ordering a bunch of parts for an amp that won't work even after I replace this stuff. I guess there is only way to find out :shifty:
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Post by stipud »

BTW, Fet = MOSFET, which is just another kind of transistor, usually found in the powersupply, while BJTs are more commonly in the output side of the amp. Other brands also use MOSFETs for the outputs as well, which doesn't sound as good in many people's opinion.

If your amp is blowing fuses, odds are one of the transistors is blown. Usually it is a shorted output transistor, but if you keep popping fuses in the power supply, it may suffer some damage as well. Also, usually when the transistors die, they take out their gate resistor as well.

Unfortunately as far as diagnosis and repair goes I am only as far along as you. You might want to search for Eric D or Jacamp's posts on the subject for some further insight, or send them a PM to see if they can look at this thread.
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Re: MOAR PIKTARS!!

Post by eulogious »

eulogious wrote: The last photo here is what I think are the "fets" is this what they are (the first 3 from the right, the only group of 3)? If so where do I order them?
I guess I will just keep answering my own questions :D

I found this:

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSea ... P60NE06-16

I think that will work. Of course my local electronics wholesaler might stock an equivalent, but these should be the specs for them.

And here's the panasonic version of my caps:

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSea ... e=P6600-ND

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSea ... =P13119-ND

Is there any benefit of going with a higher uf? I have heard that it makes the sound quality better, but I have not gotten a yes or no on that for sure. I can easily buy a higher uf if it makes it sound better.
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Post by eulogious »

stipud wrote:BTW, Fet = MOSFET, which is just another kind of transistor, usually found in the powersupply, while BJTs are more commonly in the output side of the amp. Other brands also use MOSFETs for the outputs as well, which doesn't sound as good in many people's opinion.

If your amp is blowing fuses, odds are one of the transistors is blown. Usually it is a shorted output transistor, but if you keep popping fuses in the power supply, it may suffer some damage as well. Also, usually when the transistors die, they take out their gate resistor as well.

Unfortunately as far as diagnosis and repair goes I am only as far along as you. You might want to search for Eric D or Jacamp's posts on the subject for some further insight, or send them a PM to see if they can look at this thread.
Cool, thanks for the info. I was posting when you replied :) The gate resistor, where are they located? I have already tested all the resistors that I could see that where by the fets, and any other transistor that I found, and they all tested normally. I just want to make sure that I am not missing something :) Thanks again for the info! I will wait a few more days before I go around PM'ing someone. Hopefully they will see this by then and answer.
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Post by eulogious »

I guess I should ask if the brand matters with the MOSFET's or not? If it does, then I will only order the specific brand. Thanks!
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Post by Bfowler »

the gate resistors are the little (maybe 20ish-ohm, cant really see clear) right alongside the fets.
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Post by stipud »

More capacitance is definitely better as long as the voltage, temperature rating and size all match.

You should be able to find a higher capacitance input capacitor. This is the one we often use for the M and MS amps, but I am not sure if it's the same size or not:
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch ... ND&Site=US

The gate resistors are the ones right next to the transistors. To me everything looks fine though :| . If you tested each of the transistors and didn't find any shorts I am not sure what's going on!
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Post by eulogious »

I should clarify... I tested the gate resistors, not the transistors them selves. I should have a chance to work on the amp some more tomorrow and pull the transistors to test them with a 9v battery. Should I pull all the transistors or just the six for the power supply? I will start with the fets and take it from there. Hopefully one of those bastards is bad and that is what is causing my issues. I will post back when I get more time to work on the bastard. Thanks for the help so far!
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Post by eulogious »

stipud wrote:More capacitance is definitely better as long as the voltage, temperature rating and size all match.

You should be able to find a higher capacitance input capacitor. This is the one we often use for the M and MS amps, but I am not sure if it's the same size or not:
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch ... ND&Site=US
Those should fit. They are about 2.5mm bigger in diameter, and about an 1/2 inch taller, so I will have to do some measuring buyt I think it will fit. Thanks for the link for those! I will be getting those if they fit for sure!
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Post by eulogious »

stipud wrote:You should be able to find a higher capacitance input capacitor. This is the one we often use for the M and MS amps, but I am not sure if it's the same size or not:
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch ... ND&Site=US
Ok, so I took a ruler and measured to see if I could fit those input caps into my amp, and no way. They are just too big. Even bending the legs and "stretching" there is just no room. So after some more research I found these:

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSea ... =P13120-ND

They have a little over twice the uf as the original input caps, and are only slightly bigger. The rail caps on the other hand I have to stay with the original one. I can't really find a bigger one with the same diameter from a decent company. Oh well. At least I will have fresh caps :D

I will update tomorrow when I get around to testing my fets...
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Post by stipud »

I would probably test the output fets before the power supply fets. Usually they fail first and sometimes take out the power supply fets as collateral damage, but rarely the other way around in my experience.
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Post by eulogious »

So not really knowing where the output FETs are, I took some pics of what I think are the output FETs. These are the only ones that would make any sense on being the output FETs:

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As you can see, nothing looks blown on that end of the amp either :? Very annoying. I take the these have gate resistors as well, and these must be those big ass resistors by each pair of output FETs? I am pretty sure all those resistors were ok, but I will double check, and then I will remove and test the output FETs. The resistors also got pretty hot, judging by the pool of flux by them, and also the back of the board by the output FETs looks nice and fluxy as well. So I know that this area got hot for sure, which would lead me to believe I am in the right area to start testing for blown things. Heat kills components, whether or not they look blown.

I take it the procedure for testing the output FETs is the same for testing the MOSFETs? Well, I will remove them and try, and if it doesn't work, I will be back asking more questions! And that's a threat not a warning :D Thanks for helping a newb understand the interworking of amps!
Last edited by eulogious on Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Eric D »

You are correct, those are the output FETs. If one is shorted, you would never know just by looking at it. You have to measure them and see what seems out of place.

Why did you remove the caps on your amp? Yours were just fine, and personally I have never seen caps fail on a Tantrum amp, they are just that much newer than the other PG amps with cap problems.
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Post by eulogious »

Eric D wrote:You are correct, those are the output FETs. If one is shorted, you would never know just by looking at it. You have to measure them and see what seems out of place.
That's what I figured. Sometimes they blow out (This happened on my legacy TCU that I moded and I had to replace the transistor in order to get the AWD to work again), and when they do blow violently you can tell by burnt marks :shock:
Why did you remove the caps on your amp? Yours were just fine, and personally I have never seen caps fail on a Tantrum amp, they are just that much newer than the other PG amps with cap problems.
Well the main reason I removed them was to see if they leaked from the bottom, which I thought would lead to the answer to my problem. This was of course before you posted in another thread that replacing the caps wasn't really called for with the newer amps :roll: Oh well. Read that after I pulled the caps. No biggie really. Replacing them just means that is one less thing I have to worry about failing for another 10-15 years. Granted I wouldn't have pulled them if I would have known I didn't have to replace them. I didn't mess anything up, and I can order the caps through my local electronics wholesaler for cheap, no loss really. Just gained alot more experience that's all :)

I hopefully will be able to pull the fets tonight and test them and see what's up.

When I order new fets, is there a better brand, or a "faster/better" type of fet that I could replace all mine with? I really don't care about spending more money if I am getting better parts...
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Post by eulogious »

So I found these at digi key, and they look to be the replacement for my output fets:

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSea ... N15DPBF-ND

So after I pull and test my fets I will see which ones are bad and order all my parts. Should I just replace all my fets and not even test them? At $2.90 a piece that's not really that expensive. I am just worried that if I fix one of them, then another one will go out and will have to replace them all anyways :x Hopefully this will work and fix me right back up!
Last edited by eulogious on Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Eric D »

You need to find what one failed first, then start making replacement decisions.

If you replace a lot of parts without knowing the root problem, you may instantly kill those new parts. Or, the amp may still not work, and you won't be able to track down what else is wrong with it.
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Post by eulogious »

That makes sense. I have been testing them anyways, I just like to know whether or not I am making more work for myself so if I have to do this in the future, I know the "easier" way to do it.

I think that I have found the culprit, but I am not sure. In the research that I have done regarding testing the fets, I read that if one fails, it will usually take any other fets that are wired in parallel to it? or something like that. This would make sense as well, since I found 2 fets bad I think, and they were right next to each other. When the fets fail, do they usually short between the gate and the drain? If so that would also explain why I get some resistance between the gate and the drain on the failed ones, but not on the good ones. The good ones there is no resistance what so ever. You think I found the culprits? Thanks!

edit: Answered my own question... It's shorted between the drain and the source, not the drain and the gate. See post below.
Last edited by eulogious on Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by eulogious »

Ok, I can confirm that 2 of my output fets are blown :metal: Who would of thought that finding a blown component was a good thing :lol: So after pulling all my output fets and testing them only 2 were blown. Makes sense, because it looks like the amp uses complimentary transistors to power each channel, so that would be why 2 were blown.

The testing procedure I mentioned above does work, but it's a little hard to get the gist of it, so this is what I came up with, with help from the internet:
To perform this Functional Test (written for an N-channel enhancement mode device), the following steps need to be performed:

1. Ensure the MOSFET is out of circuit, then place the DVM into the Diode test position. Attach the positive lead (Red) to the Drain terminal, and the negative lead (Black) to the Source terminal. Confirm an Open circuit condition. This means that there is no connectivity between these pins. My DMM read 0L.

2. Use a 9v battery, placing the positive end on the gate pin, and the negative end on the source pin. This energizes the transistor.

3. Repeat Step 1. This time, confirm device conduction. My DMM read 0.00 in diode test mode, and 0.00 in ohm mode as well.

4. Short the drain and the source pins using a paper clip or the lead of your DMM. This de-energizes the transistor, causing no connectivity between those pins again. Repeat Step 1 and verify there is no connectivity between those pins. My DMM read 0L again at this point.

5. If the MOSFET has a built in Protection Diode (this is connected across the Drain and Source Terminals), attach the negative lead (Black) to the Drain terminal, and the positive lead (Red) to the Source terminal. Confirm a forward voltage drop of between 0.2 to 0.8V DC. My DMM read 0.478.
On my blown fets, I get connectivity all the time between the drain and the source, no matter in the transistor is energized or not. But all the other ones checked ok!

So in the morning I will go down and order all my parts. If they happen to stock my output fets, I will probably not order new caps, but if I have to order my fets, then I will problably just order all new fets and caps and just be done with it. That way everything will be fresh, and I won't have to deal with this issue for a long time.

Now, should I be checking the gate resistors as well? I think that I will have to remove them to test them... All of mine seem to read 0. I will remove the gate resistor and take it and get new ones anyways, they should be cheap and not hard to remove and replace, so why not?

It will be good to know if it's really needed or not though. Let me know if there is anything else that I should be looking at, now that I found my fets bad as well! Thanks all, and I hope to fix my amp up soon!
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Post by Eric D »

The gate resistors are probably toast as well. When the output FET goes it often kills those resistors with it. This is especially true for the power supply FETs.
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