M-Series Silk Screens

tonym · Post by **tonym** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:06 pm

Hey

I am in the process of getting some screens made for an m50 and m100

These will end up in Matts(mhyde71) hands when all is said and done seeing as he does the powder coating ...

here is my question ....(HoseHead's stash pic)
see how the number is cut out of the M on all but the m100? Would you keep it that way or change the screen to have it cut out?

gridracer · Post by **gridracer** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:29 pm

How about doing the M50's so they match the M100 not cut out?

Post by **AVICJR** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:35 pm

Leave the cut outs. I personally like the look.

oldskoolmseriesfan · Post by **oldskoolmseriesfan** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:22 pm

^^^x2

HoseHead · Post by **HoseHead** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:20 am

How about a completely different design? Perhaps the same cut out design, only large, like 4 or 5 inches high with the hand made and PG logos up in the corners below the heat sink.....
Or reverse the colours with blue core and white silk screening....

HH

Post by **mhyde71** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:33 am

once the screens are made-
you can use any color you would like-
it is the screen that needs to be designed and made then you could lay purple with yellow ink, green w/ pink, etc etc as it's not Dependant on the screen to determine the color- it's the ink of course...

BUT
IYAM- i would say make the 100- just like all the rest- with the number being cut out of the M... BUT the purist in me says make it OEM and however it was done back then do it that way.

It's weird, i wonder if it was an oversight back then or intentional as it is the mother of the m-series amps (save the LE Editions), but weird that there is that difference.

SO yeah once screens are cut you can spill any color ink on there as one would like- thats whats cool about SS'ing like this.

@ TONY-
I have frames
frames that are like 24 x 12" or so- AND i have connect of custom frame maker and he has reasonable pricing- BUT he can make and stretch screen on any size frame you would like/need.

m

tonym · Post by **tonym** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:52 am

Hey Matt

The screens come with wood frames... 230 mesh

Waiting on the type setter to get back from the UK(vacation)

Looking into the inks now to see what would be best for the HOT M Series

Should turn out very nice...

Post by **mhyde71** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:28 am

tonym wrote:Hey Matt

The screens come with wood frames... 230 mesh

Waiting on the type setter to get back from the UK(vacation)

Looking into the inks now to see what would be best for the HOT M Series

Should turn out very nice...

better to get/have a higher screen TPI count...I have 405 i believe it is-
the finer screen mesh the better detail- shirts typically get done at/around 110-200- the artwork on covers and labeling and stuff (very fine detail graphics/artwork) needs to be like at least 305tpi (threads per inch).

just what i would suggest from my research in the past. I could be wrong and would like to know if there is a change/correction to that- but from my past discussions w/ various printers/designers, etc... from their review of samples i sent and all that crap- they suggested nothing less than 305- and upwards of 400 would be even better.

expensive stuff- I have prolly i think 10-12 yards (2' (maybe 3) wide) of it to contribute- so you wouldn't have to buy the screen - just need someone to stretch it on properly. That'll save us/you/whomever like 100-150$

typically the higher count, better quality, screen mesh tends to be yellow- do you know if yours is yellow?
__________
Here is something i just copied/pasted from just a random ebay listing for screen mesh- they only show pricing up to 235tpi- but higher counts are avail.

The rule of thumb with screens and meshes is that the tighter they are, the better the quality of output. The benefits of a tight mesh include a decreased likelihood of the mesh moving out of registration during printing and lesser chances of one color bleeding into another.

Tight screens also offer lower resistance when pulling the squeegee thereby reducing labor and cutting the ink cleanly.

A tight mesh also deposits the ink evenly onto the substrate. A soft mesh may have deposits of ink towards the edges thus printing with more ink in the center and less towards the corners. The uneven deposit of ink results in lowered printing quality.

___________
<edit>
in fact what i have may be 420
here are the folks i got mine from:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Silk-Screen-Printin ... 3309wt_958

AND standard widths are 50" wide-
So i have about a 10 yard ( maybe 12) stretch of this 420 mesh-
it'll be great to have a higher mesh count- but i need to get it to you

shoot me your addy in pm and i'll get it out to you.

Post by **mhyde71** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:46 am

ink on the other hand

i havent gotten too too far on w/ respect to laying it on PC. I dont think there will be so much of an issue issue with finding it. Just general purpose black ink for text/labeling (like on the TI/ZX/MS/M, etc...)

BUT what i do know is that for plexi work it is stuff that is like $300/gal. thats one color- think of a team gold plexi - that has like 4 colors in it- $300x4 = $1200 in my book- of course you dont need a gal to do 1 plexi- but custom colors (which perhaps in case of plexi work with the gold and/or blues and stuff) granted it's prolly just a reg process blue- BUT the ink people i spoke with sent me RAL chart (like a 4" book) and said pick the color you want- match it up to your artwork - and you would have an exact match but min order for custom ink is a gallon...

got discouraged after that and havent made much of a splash with the SS'ing since.

tonym · Post by **tonym** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:07 am

Silkscreens 23"X31 305 mesh= per screen 36.85
Silkscreens 18"X20 230 (highest in that size) mesh= per screen 19.76
Silkscreens 20"X24 305 mesh= per screen 25.45

We can fit more than 1 logo on 1 screen also...all you do it put tape over the logo you dont want.
m25, m50 and m100 should all fit on 23x31 plus some other PG logo's

305 mesh is the highest the place I get the screens at

I will call the guy tomorrow and ask him if he can make screens.... if so we can go that way

I have another pan on the fire also ATM...
M series fan units.. seeing about gettnig a few sets made..was going to get some made in aluminum instead of the 18 gage metal that rusts

Here is a nice Press CHEAP

http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/si ... uct/LG2x1N

davewaibel · Post by **davewaibel** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:08 pm

as you said, screens are cheap, its the ink and the set up time that will kill you- be careful about getting ridiculous at the screen ruling- most circuit boards are done around 400- your pushing epoxy (ink) through a small screen the first couple of pulls are likely to be ok, but the screen will not stay open, and image will degrade, so the fine line stuff will suffer, and basically you will not get the screen to ever clean up the way it should- talk to a vendor and see what they have to say- but over the last 20 years this was the way it was done- if your not doing 10 or more of these, your going to be hairless in a short amount of time- I applaud your efforts but the set up time to do 1, 3color job is about 4 hours, start to finish- and thats if you have a real press- if your rigging something up- could be a day to get your image and part in registration, and to have enough scrap material around to get your technique down, so you get even coverage on your pulls- your going to have to build so many gigs to do end plates, and top covers- makes me quezzy just thinking about the amount of time- with the exception of ink- everything else is cheap, and you do not have to buy gallons of ink, a little goes a long way, quarts and pints would be the way that I would go after it- the metallics will probably be the most expensive, the base colors are relatively cheap, and you can blend most everything else, if you have color theory down - the metallics will be the biggest bitch to figure out how to get them to flow correctly- lots of trial and error- a mighty expensive 'end' plate, when its all done- If you can leave the press set up you can gain some time on set up- but that is a big footprint in your workspace for end plates and top covers- enough ramble- good luck

tonym · Post by **tonym** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:46 pm

davewaibel wrote:as you said, screens are cheap, its the ink and the set up time that will kill you- be careful about getting ridiculous at the screen ruling- most circuit boards are done around 400- your pushing epoxy (ink) through a small screen the first couple of pulls are likely to be ok, but the screen will not stay open, and image will degrade, so the fine line stuff will suffer, and basically you will not get the screen to ever clean up the way it should- talk to a vendor and see what they have to say- but over the last 20 years this was the way it was done- if your not doing 10 or more of these, your going to be hairless in a short amount of time- I applaud your efforts but the set up time to do 1, 3color job is about 4 hours, start to finish- and thats if you have a real press- if your rigging something up- could be a day to get your image and part in registration, and to have enough scrap material around to get your technique down, so you get even coverage on your pulls- your going to have to build so many gigs to do end plates, and top covers- makes me quezzy just thinking about the amount of time- with the exception of ink- everything else is cheap, and you do not have to buy gallons of ink, a little goes a long way, quarts and pints would be the way that I would go after it- the metallics will probably be the most expensive, the base colors are relatively cheap, and you can blend most everything else, if you have color theory down - the metallics will be the biggest bitch to figure out how to get them to flow correctly- lots of trial and error- a mighty expensive 'end' plate, when its all done- If you can leave the press set up you can gain some time on set up- but that is a big footprint in your workspace for end plates and top covers- enough ramble- good luck

DAMN...you make it sound hard

There is a press a few posts up that is cheap and will do the job with a small foot print.... can do up to 4 color 1 station

as for time....not sure on that ...not everyones pace is the same...drying times would be the same yes....

as for setting up jigs for end plates...all these are metal? hold it with an earth magnet...should hold no problem.. put the sceen over it and print.

I know what you are saying though...
Pain in the ass to get setup and know what your doing...

Post by **ttocs** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:08 pm

but it looks so easy on the yudo commercials?

Post by **mhyde71** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:34 pm

there is also sublimation which i have looked into doing- which is basically silk screening onto a transfer type of paper - which on the surface has shown to be somewhat promising- BUT haven't looked into it 100%- only browsed over some stuff i searched/seeked out.

all the variable/s and CLEAN/ISOLATED space needed in shop is a tall order for me- "a powder coater" doing stripping, blasting, spraying powder, and crap- It gets real dusty and sandy in the shop- which if i cant/dont have a separate room established i wouldn't be able to do anything anyways... Ink and dust dont mix-

I do have an isolated office room and what should be the bathroom room- and they are reasonably sized, but still needs work to be completely completely isolated from other/common shop area.

If we wanted, or were adamant about trying to re-create OEM looks- which i would like to be able to do, BUT if we were so pressed to go OEM look/feel- then just using black, red, blue, and white(s), will go a long way. I would start off just using black anyways-
JUST black you could at least do any/all Ti amp restores!

BUT what i am saying is, as we get into being able to make/finish any of these amps like any color we would like- i.e. candy copper, candy black, gold plated over silver vein, etc etc - we're not OEM anyways- So maybe we use just white and black (maybe throw red in for the "Phoenix"- but all rest black and white) SS'ing on a candy black powder coating, or black chrome powder- etc etc
maybe confused you there->?

Guess what i am saying is that take it in baby steps- get some 30/50$ gallon general purpose black and if 420 is too high of a TPI count for the mesh maybe go with 230 or go to 305 or whatever- (BUT we need to be mindful of just how small that text is on the m-series amp and most for that matter- so detailed SS'ing is a must!)- BUT just go with black to get feet wet- and add colors as you/one feels comfortable-

BUT IN SAME BREATH there is all of that about the set up and having the gear to do so... it is a major shop overhaul (for me at least as a powder coater) - i would need to get/find different shop space or maybe talk to my friend that does the SS'ing in town with his business doing only textiles. - wonder how much headache it would be of him to allow me to come in at nights and do SS'ing on some plexi's and covers/end plates and crap. Suppose i could ask. He has some serious gear- BUT focussed to his textile runs.

Grainger sells these really neat surface mount plungers- They work great for squaring up a registration- put two on each side, and you would be able to drop the frame right into place each time exact. plungers have like a 1.5" throw, and they mount right to the surface top- hard to explain- but would do the trick- Ron uses them at Perfect Image here in town.

davewaibel · Post by **davewaibel** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:39 am

sounds like you have a good grasp of the scope of the project- your aware of the dusty/dirt situation that your dealing with- exposed screens laying around will need to be protected from particulate, so they do not pin hole- it is a paradox, It is simple, but simple does not mean easy- I am sure that you will be successfull with it- and the baby step approach that you seem to be willing to take is the safest- you will find that there will be a reducer product, and the real trick will be getting the knack of working the emulsion so it flows correctly and dries-
Your friend with the textiles should be able to help you out quite a bit, but other than screen preparation and general technique, the two are quite different- as far as small room, your going to be dealing with pretty toxic ink, textile ink is pretty benign, but epoxy is quite strong, so be careful about being in a small enclosed space with that- that stuff is a huffers dream come true-

vwguy3 · Post by **vwguy3** » Sat May 08, 2010 10:41 am

Can't wait for this. I have an M44 that I am currently restoring. Out the door what would it cost to have it PC and rescreened? When I took screen printing class in High school we always used some card stock to do the first couple of pulls. That was we could check the image and fill the screen up so ther wasn't and blank spots for the real thing. One thing I can't remember is what we all put thought the baking oven. I know we did with clothing, but I cant remeber if we did with decals and stuff.

Later
Justind

Matt sending you PM about the plugs.

Audiophiliac · Post by **Audiophiliac** » Sat May 08, 2010 1:00 pm

I say either do it OEM to the "t", or do something completely different altogether.

vwguy3 · Post by **vwguy3** » Sat May 08, 2010 1:04 pm

I forgot to give my two cents about the real question. I say make it look like all of the rest with the cut out. I really don't understand why they would have done this to just one of the amps. It looks dumb to me. With the M and the number over lapping like that you can really see what the number is suppose to be when it is cut out.

Thanks
Justind

Post by **mhyde71** » Wed May 12, 2010 8:50 am

forget about silkscreening...!

I have found/received something else that will work just the same and/or at least provide the same results.

1) i need a laser printer (of good quality)-

2) spoke to mfg of this stuff and they said/confirmed with me that what we're looking to do is just fine and appropriate to use what they have to offer
IN FACT- they sell this stuff to motor bike mfg's, helmet mfg's, model car mfg's...etc etc and they simply print and apply- it's a transfer paper in essence- BUT in some cases they even sell to mug/cup mfg's, ceramic plate makers... so this stuff goes thorugh 420-620*F for their vaious applications.

3) i just tried a another quick sample here in house... and the ink jet will not work i dont think- unless i try somethign else- so i called and they said i really need laser to do what i need to-

so if anyone has color laser printer laying around- i'll shoot a shipping label for it to be sent to me and i will order the laser product that would be used with that and run some more tests/samples.

BUT what i have heard and seen thus far- We'll be all set here shortly

So it's like when you see gas tank or helmet with artwork on it- thats what we'll be doing...
only downfall at this point is that the maximum size they offer / can get is 19.5" x 27.5" (for laser) and 18 x 25" (for ink-jets)

this will potentially leave out the rte66's and outlaws- as they are 29" long for thier artwork- AND possibly MS1K plexis.
OTHERWISE / OR we can just piece mail it, and do it in two parts OR simply reduce artwork like by .75" (or so) on either side and run with the ball that way.

marko · Post by **marko** » Wed May 12, 2010 9:11 am

route 66 is 26.25" long

Post by **mhyde71** » Wed May 12, 2010 9:19 am

marko wrote:route 66 is 26.25" long

is it?!?!?

could have sworn it was same as outlaw- well thats good news then... maybe only excludes the outlaw then!

NEED LASER PRINTER

anyone that can belly up a laser printer would be great!
a decent one though...
so looking at laser printers now- (color) and they are not cheap!
never mind the ink

matt

marko · Post by **marko** » Wed May 12, 2010 9:22 am

yes, don't forget the m25 is shorter than the m50 that the outlaw uses.

Post by **mhyde71** » Wed May 12, 2010 9:26 am

i have a whole box full of phaser 850 ink
it was sent to us in error...

so think i will just look for a phaser 850 (ebay for 94.00) and give it a shot...

just hate wasting time with used printers, just to find out that they are printing with streaks or something stupid like that
but maybe we can get lucky!

INK is the most expensive and i have about 15 boxes of color and equal amounts of black for this particular printer.... so maybe we need to try or just go all out and get a NIB phaser 850??

Post by **stipud** » Wed May 12, 2010 9:58 am

FYI a phaser is a thermal transfer printer, not a laser printer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_ink

itchnertamatoa · Post by **itchnertamatoa** » Wed May 12, 2010 10:40 am

matt, buy a new one
if $$$ is a problem you know what you have to do ...