Kicks for RSd 65CS components

Post by **Bfowler** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:47 pm

the bmw is a little different becasue the speaker was already designed to go there.

i had that option 2.....but went sealed.

dragonplayboy · Post by **dragonplayboy** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:15 pm

second to last pic is from a tC. almost looks stock LOL.

I'm cool either way guys, definitely no reason to get unhappy over this, you're both very knowledgeable in this field and I value both your opinions. In reality, you're probably both right, dependent on the vehicle in question

The reason I also "axed" Errin to chime in is because of his involvement with these particular components. I have zero problemo going into the doors (it'd actually be 100 times easier than doing my first FG components ever) but as I recall he told me these drivers are very planar and axial (assuming I'm using those terms correctly).

again, thank you both, and please hug it out cuz I don't want anyone on this awesome board to be unhappy, especially over something lil' ol' me asked.

dragonplayboy · Post by **dragonplayboy** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:19 pm

I took the following from a sticky at diymobileaudio.com-

"I think that some people go a little crazy with angling the speakers. Granted some speakers have better on-axis response than off, but the difference is usually minimal and can be fixed with an EQ. Once you are willing to sacrifice the angle of the speaker in the kickpanel, you will realize it is very easy to install 3", 4" and often 5.25" speakers without taking up floor space.

When it comes to tweeters in kicks, I am not a big fan at all. All of the successful renditions of tweeter kicks I have heard were in show-vehicles that had the seats pushed back so far you couldn't drive the car. That is not practical and it defeats the entire purpose of car audio. People doing that might as well just pick up home audio as a hobby instead. With the seat in a normal driving position, the high frequencies easily reflect off your leg drawing the stage down even lower than intended. Furthermore, a passenger's leg and foot may completely block the tweeter which changes the sound of the system drastically as they shift around in the seat. So I just put my tweeters up high and as far away as possible and deal with the reflections. At least it makes for an enjoyable listening experience in any seat position with or with out a passenger.

I also have some comments about large drivers in kicks. I believe you must utilize the door locations to get any kind of midbass up front. There simply isn't enough airspace in kicks for 6.5" woofers to truely shine in this department. I tried this once and was very unhappy with the results. No amount of ventilation and polyfill could clean up the midbass region and get rid of the nasty peaks. Since then, all of my kickpanel installs have been 4-way (T,MR,MB,SW) designs with a larger woofer in the door. And since you can't utilize the lower range of a 6.5" driver mounted in a kick, you might as well stick to 3", 4", and 5.25" drivers which fit better anyway."

Having read that, I revert to wanting to do the mid in the door and the tweets in the pillars... again this is my wife's car, she knows dick about stage and image, I just want height and clarity, with nice midbass and a (reasonably) non-biased (left/right) sound.

dragonplayboy · Post by **dragonplayboy** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:41 pm

OK, here are some kix pix, and I removed the passenger one real quick to see behind it, mosquitos got too bad to do the driver's one. it appears that they vent into another part of the car (hell if I know what, and also that the passenger's side would be very doable as far as making a kickpanel, not so sure that a 6.5" will be easy, but it is feasible.

dragonplayboy · Post by **dragonplayboy** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:42 pm

Post by **bdubs767** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:39 pm

Bfowler wrote:the bmw is a little different because the speaker was already designed to go there.

i had that option 2.....but went sealed.

well If remeber right you had quite a bit of room in there...like prob around .2 to .25 cu ft that way you glassed the base. Also TI elites have to sealed to have any mid bass output.

Post by **bdubs767** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:45 pm

Drag, you have plenty of room if your willing to cut and mount them down there...and I posted a pic of what it will look like with a 6.5" woofer and compact tweet down there.

Or that stock hole is plenty big enough to make a kick off of the stock piece then vent that piece through the stock holes. Just make sure you seal off the back side of the your fabricated kick to those stock holes.

If your willing to do all this I say go for the kicks....if not go to the doors.

Post by **stipud** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:58 pm

dragonplayboy wrote:I'm cool either way guys, definitely no reason to get unhappy over this, you're both very knowledgeable in this field and I value both your opinions. In reality, you're probably both right, dependent on the vehicle in question

We're just having healthy debate here. I encourage these kinds of discussions! It keeps the place from getting boring.

I agree with Brandon mostly... the ideal setups would be something in this order:
1) Infinite baffle in the kicks
2) Infinite baffle in the doors, this includes fully deadening the doors, and using something like a deflex pad
3) Running sealed kicks

Honestly I would just do whichever is easiest for you, because the difference between the three isn't a big deal if you just want your music to sound good.

Post by **bdubs767** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:56 pm

stipud wrote:
dragonplayboy wrote:I'm cool either way guys, definitely no reason to get unhappy over this, you're both very knowledgeable in this field and I value both your opinions. In reality, you're probably both right, dependent on the vehicle in question
We're just having healthy debate here. I encourage these kinds of discussions! It keeps the place from getting boring.

I second that one....we need these debates to keep things fun. All fun and games until personal attacks come out which I have far to much respect for Tom to even think about throwing any his way...as matter fact I dont throw insults at any one really, just not the way to handle things. If we did it that way it would be a SLC and Ibaner guy debate/ bashing/ pwned thang dogz, which if your were on the SB filled the forum with crap for about a good solid month.

dragonplayboy · Post by **dragonplayboy** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:59 pm

stipud wrote: We're just having healthy debate here. I encourage these kinds of discussions! It keeps the place from getting boring.

I agree with Brandon mostly... the ideal setups would be something in this order:
1) Infinite baffle in the kicks
2) Infinite baffle in the doors, this includes fully deadening the doors, and using something like a deflex pad
3) Running sealed kicks

Honestly I would just do whichever is easiest for you, because the difference between the three isn't a big deal if you just want your music to sound good.

true. well as I look at it now, my options are:

1. kicks, no backpiece
2. kicks, seal into the factory chambers as best as possible, a little magic with a dremmel or something to widen the holes, and a mess of bxt & ensolite
3. doors, deadened to heck and back (I have about 150 sq. ft of raammat in the garage) and tweets in the a-pillars, playing with phase (which Errin doesn't like unless I'm mistaken)
or 4. woofs and tweets near each other in the factor door locale.

possibly woofs with tweets somewhere else, but I can't really think of where.

Post by **stipud** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:16 pm

Here's a minor subjective comparison.

My Elite tweeters are installed deep in the dash, with the 6.5 mids in undeadened doors. Fuzzy's car has RSD 6.0 mids and tweets sealed in a tiny enclosure in the kickpanels.

Midbass : With the small enclosure in Fuzzy's car, we don't use a high pass crossover at all. Just run them full range, and they roll off naturally on the low end. There is a good deal of midbass; much more than the Elites right now. I found the RSDs blended perfectly with my 12" IDMax, when I just couldn't find a good blend with the undeadened Elites, which went better with a 10" RSD instead.

Treble: The tweeters in my car have lots of reflections from the windshield and dash. I have noticed if I throw a towel over the dash it sounds quite a bit less harsh, it images better, and I have to do far less EQ taming. It would sound good with a dash mat or something similar. Fuzzy's car has awesome imaging, and more laid back tweeters. You do lose the effect a bit when there is a passenger sitting next to you.

Midrange : The Elites do have a bit more clarity, but because my doors aren't deadened the door panel sings at certain frequencies. This causes a few ugly sounding resonances. Fuzzy's car's midrange is less pronounced, but there are no vibration issues, so it also sounds better at higher volumes. Absolutely minimal breakup compared to the undeadened mid.

Since you have a lot of sound deadening, the doors may not be a bad idea. It can't hurt to try there first, then cut holes or make kickpanels later.

Post by **VW337** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:55 am

First off the RSd's don't have to be IB but it will allow them to play without restriction and will likely respond quicker bringing out the midrange a bit better.

If you are doing kicks and this is your first time doing so I advise doing what you are comfortable with, especially when it concerns cutting of your car.

Yes the RSd's will perform best if mounted on a common plane within short distances from each other (mid/tweet), in this case a kick would be ideal, but a properly prepared door will do well but may not image as accurately.

dragonplayboy · Post by **dragonplayboy** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:45 am

VW337 wrote:First off the RSd's don't have to be IB but it will allow them to play without restriction and will likely respond quicker bringing out the midrange a bit better.

If you are doing kicks and this is your first time doing so I advise doing what you are comfortable with, especially when it concerns cutting of your car.

Yes the RSd's will perform best if mounted on a common plane within short distances from each other (mid/tweet), in this case a kick would be ideal, but a properly prepared door will do well but may not image as accurately.

so judging from my position (kickpanel first timer, wife's car so it needs to sound good not amazing) should I go

Sealed kicks?
IB kicks?
Well dampened doors?

if I go with the doors where do I put the tweets? off axis? aimed the same place as the woofs?

Thanks!!

Post by **VW337** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:16 pm

dragonplayboy wrote:..............wife's car ................?

In that case try cutting the speakers into the cardboard box they ship in, most women could give a shit less........................

seriously, if it's the misses car she'll be very happy with a deadened door mount and the tweets where ever they happen to fit.

dragonplayboy · Post by **dragonplayboy** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:20 pm

VW337 wrote: seriously, if it's the misses car she'll be very happy with a deadened door mount and the tweets where ever they happen to fit.

OK, but not in the a-pillars out of phase, right?

Post by **stipud** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:25 pm

Wife's car? Why didn't you say so??? Dampened doors then.

Post by **bdubs767** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:35 pm

wifes car....stock location who gives a fuck

Post by **VW337** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:06 pm

put the tweet in the factory location, near the handle.

dragonplayboy · Post by **dragonplayboy** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:44 pm

well after pulling off the driver's kick, there ain't no way in hell I'm getting 6.5" woofers in that beeatch without HEAVY modification and a lot of wire-moving. We're going with heavily dampened doors and stock location for the woofer. stock tweet location too errin? they'll still sound pretty good like that? it sure as hell would make life easier... tweet is about 9" to 12" north of the woofer. I could also put the tweet just above the woofer in that little empty spot...

side note, does anyone know where I can get replacement flush mount cups for the rsd tweets? whoever owned them before snapped the little pegs not realizing that they twist and lock into the cups

Post by **bdubs767** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:19 pm

whos gives a fudge its your wife...you could mount them in the headliner and she couldnt tell prob.

dragonplayboy · Post by **dragonplayboy** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:36 pm

yeah but i spent like a week sound dampening that thing, I don't just wanna slap em in place. I wish kicks were feasible...

Post by **bdubs767** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:52 pm

they are more then feasible if you want to put hte time in

dragonplayboy · Post by **dragonplayboy** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:05 pm

I could sell the rsd components and get some components that would be more "tweets-in-a-pillars-friendly"...

Capital_M · Post by **Capital_M** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:09 pm

I think your over analizing this, unless your super picky about sound

dragonplayboy · Post by **dragonplayboy** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:25 pm

screw it. I'll use the stock locations and if I don't like it I'll sell the stuff for different components.