Need help repairing an XS4600

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computerjlt
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Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by computerjlt »

I posted this last night but i guess the forum software upgrade ate it lol. Anywise here is my dilemma:

I have a phoenix gold XS4600 4ch amp that 3 of the four channels work perfectly. On the right rear channel randomly it stops playing music and starts popping loudly like its sending DC/Rail voltage to the speaker. There isn't much pattern to when it starts and how often it repeats and i've done some poking with my DMM but I don't know what else to check. I've also acquired a 40mhz oscilloscope and poked around and found when the amp does start popping its sending +30v to the right rear NEGATIVE terminal; positive terminal seems fine with the DMM and scope. The channel will still play music while its popping but the popping is so intense it blew a speaker the previous owner of the amp had. While its popping the other channels keep on playing.

Also the same signal ( random +30v) comes in and out of one of the big fets for the right rear channel so maybe its a smaller transistor that triggers the bigger fets thats dying? Or due to the repetition repeating maybe a cap is bad?

I took the main board out of the amp to get to the bottom of the pcb but now my prob is that I cannot repeat the issue as the fets that are now floating without a heat sync get too hot before the amp starts glitching.

I'm powering the amp off of a 5amp bench power supply so as not to overload anything to the point of smokey failure but I did note that amperage draw jumps significantly when it's "popping" I unhook the speaker and popping stops obviously and amp draw stabilizes. This amp does seem to have excessive idle amperage draw; about 2.5A compared to about .5-1A for my memphis 1500w monoblock class d and similar for a junky power acoustik gothic "1200w" amp i have to reference (though some of that I attribute to the PG amp being older and better built). Also the amperage draw slowly ramps from power-up either hot or cold. it starts out normal and slowly builds up to peak idle draw of 2.5A with or without load (speakers) or any music playing.

One thing to note this amp used the little DIP/IC resistor network to control crossover points and the one for the rear channels had 2 damaged and missing pins. The only way that amp will play out of the right rear is if the "crossover defeat" button was pressed; and pressing that button while the amp is powered will reward you with a very powerful THUD out of the right rear channel. I plan on using an outboard crossover but I have fixed the pins on that resistor IC and the thud is gone and crossover works as normal.

Also that channel has an excessive amount of 60HZ hum compared to the other channels (RCA's and speakers swapped around and moved around physically to rule out 120v ac cord interference or a bad speaker). I don't know if that's relevant but I thought i'd mention it. Its not bad but it is noticeable in a quiet room and does not seem to change with gain or input volume. Touching the case of the amp will make it increase out of that channel slightly but not the other channel.

My guess is repeated pressings of that button or that IC not being right caused something in the right rear channel to overload partially fry'ing a FET or maybe a cap?

Anyway any input on what else I should check or replace?

After reading many threads on this forum last night I may go ahead and order some new caps for this amp as I plan on using it for the highs in my car. Right now I have a Pioneer AVIC-N3 feeding a memphis 1500w class d amp that will be powering 3 alpine type r 12s in a ported box tuned to around 34hz and am looking for some good 6.5 and 6x9 speakers for mids/highs. I have stock speakers now powered off the head unit and SQ and SPL is non-existent lol. I have a set of JVC 6.5" coaxials I got that I may run but i'm really hoping to score a set of good used components for the front and some matching 6x9's in the rear.

Anyway for S&G here is a pic from the other night after I got my scope when I was testing this amp.
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stipud
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by stipud »

Ouch you didn't type that all out again I hope! I still have a copy of the old forum so I could have retrieved it for you. Sorry about that. :doh:
computerjlt
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by computerjlt »

no biggie; i posted the thread late last night and it was copy/pasted pretty much with horrible typing (posted some from my phone on the other board) so i'm sure this post is a little clearer and less 13yo girlish
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by computerjlt »

also i just tried reading the dc offset on that channel......... well it starts out at about 8mv according to my DMM then steadily climbs; i stoped at about 30mv; the amp was only on for maybe a minute (fets are out in the open no heatsync so i'm afraid to runit very long)...

is that normal? rear left channel started out with about 20mv of dc offset and dropped as it warmed up..........
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by Bfowler »

he doesnt browse the forum regularly, so pm "valeks1"
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by Jacampb2 »

I have never worked on an XS amp so hopefully someone smart will try to help, but some basic stuff-- It should survive out of the heat sink okay for very limited low power testing.

First of all, IIRC these amps are all mosfet output stage in contrast to the BJT outputs on most of the other older PG amps. I am not sure if they are the more common p-channel/n-channel complimentary pair configuration, or if they are the bit more rare and complex design using all n-channels. Anyhow, mosfets are a voltage mode device. They require very little current to enhance (switch on) so, stray voltage at the gate terminal can cause one to enhance and drop a lot of current at once. Very generally mosfets tend to fail shorted completely from drain to source, not get "leaky" like BJT's can.

All in all, I would be surprised if you actually found that this was an output stage problem, but like I say, I am not intimately familiar with these amps. My guess would be that the problem lies in the input section. Check to see if the problem channel's RCA input shield connection is floating. PG's typically have a low value resistor from shield to ground, and they tend to get crispy if someone has been abusing the amp. You can get a lot of different noise/pops/oscillations from floating input ground.

This 60Hz Hum you describe, is it there all the time, or is it just when you are running it off this bench supply?

As for the DIP resistor thing, I would say it could definitely be a problem, but i wouldn't think it would have any effect with the crossover by passed. I believe you can still order those DIP packaged resistors from digikey and mouser. Try peeling the sticker off it (if any) and look up the data sheet, then search for a match over at digikey. Also, you should be able to use discrete resistors, but it might not be as pretty.

Good Luck,
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by dwnrodeo »

Try turning your gain pot up and down (carefully) and see if the pops and clicks occur as you turn the knob. Dirty potentiometers are typical with these and Ti series amplifiers and can wreak havoc on speakers as it sends dirty or DC signal to them. I have 4 XS amps in my vehicle right now that have been causing me problems like you have described for quite some time now. I thought I had the problem figured out the other day, drove the vehicle around for the entire day with no problems and then the next day it returned. As for the capacitors, the XS series do not have the typical cap failures like the M, MS, ZX, and ZPA amps. Slide a piece of paper under the caps and check for fluid and if they come out clean you should be alright.

P.S. If you need any parts, PM me as I have a couple extra XS amps lying around specifically for harvesting parts.
XS2300, XS2500, XS2300, X200.4, X100.2, Ti21000.4, Roadster 66

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valeks1
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by valeks1 »

It's leaking transistor on that channel.
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Jacampb2
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by Jacampb2 »

See, I told you I didn't know :D

Good luck!
Jason
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computerjlt
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by computerjlt »

how might i find a leaky transistor? anyone have schematics?
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by eulogious »

The XS series is a lot like the tantrum series and I have repaired mine before when I blew a transistor.

The board should pretty much be labled, if not, it should be pretty easy to trace the channels and what not on the board. Once you have found the area that is for the channel that is not working, you should see some "pairs" of transistors. Those are most likely what is fried/leaking. They should be located on the outside of the amp. Once you locate them, you need to remove them to test them properly, or at least I did :lol: Once removed you can use a 9v battery and a DMM to test to see if the transistor works or not.

Since I haven't actually touched an XS4600, I don't know the specifics, but that should get you in the right general area to be able to figure it out. Hope you like soldering :) I had to remove ALL of mine because I didn't know which one(s) were bad. Good times.
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by computerjlt »

its not hard to find the right rear channel and all associated hw its just i dont know how to trace the signal back from the biggest pair of transistors for that channel (the ones mounted to the heatsync). since i know its not them thats bad (input pin on that transistor gets teh same weird signal as the negative terminal) i guess i'll just remove all the small transistors and replace depending on how much that costs
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by eulogious »

You can't really test a transistor properly without removing it or having specialized equipment. This is because the are wired together, and if one is bad, the other will read bad as well, and give off funny readings. The only cheap and actually useful way to test a transistor is to remove it, otherwise you are just guessing. Ask me how I know :roll: but you can keep trying if you want to :lol: Remove them, test them and I bet you one of them is bad...
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by computerjlt »

you think testing them individually like that would show the problem?

this amp works fine most of the time.... only sometimes does it crack out...


guess i'll start desoldering :p

good thing i'm handy with an iron and spring loaded solder sucker
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by eulogious »

I can't promise that it will show up bad, but a leaky transistor should show up bad when testing it I would think. So I would remove them and see what you find. The worst that can happen is you get some solder experience :D

That's what I did with my tantrum, kept removing stuff till I found the bad one! Found it eventually. Mine was shorted so it was obvious it was bad. I have never looked for a leaky transistor before though, so I could be wrong... But it's still what I would do till I found out more...
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by computerjlt »

i have plenty of solder experience lol; been soldering since i was about 10 and have done a bunch of SMD. I do EFI tuning and mod a LOT of honda ECUs

anyway im tearing out all the transistors in that channel here in a bit and will try to test them out; seems theres only 3 types of transistor on that channel; 2x TO220 IRF540, 4x TO92 (iirc) mpsa56, 4x TO92 mpsa06
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by computerjlt »

well I got all the parts in from digi-key today

first thing I did is replace the MOSFETs i just ran the amp for about 15min until my power supply turned off (thermal protection). I scratched my head a bit let it cool and hooked up my DMM to read amps; apparently now with the 2 new Internatonal Rectifier IRF540Z's in place of the orignal ST (brand) IRF540's idle current now shoots up to FIVE AMPS when the amp is warm.

Tomorrow ill start pulling the driver transistors and replace them one by one or pairs to see if it helps :-/

anyone have any input on this maybe?
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by Bertje »

For testing the power supply only, you can remove the rectifier diodes. The smps runs without a load and then you check the symmetrical voltages (squarewave).
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by computerjlt »

theres nothing wronf with the power supply
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by computerjlt »

Well I put the original IRF540 mosfets back and replaced the pnp and npn transistors on that channel (mpsa06 and mpsa56). I've been running the amp for about an hour and all seems fine; the 60hz is gone and the general noise level out of both channels seems lower but that may just be placebo lol...

As i figured though every transistor i pulled out tested fine and none looked like it had any damage or had any sort of heat deformation
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by eulogious »

computerjlt wrote:Well I put the original IRF540 mosfets back and replaced the pnp and npn transistors on that channel (mpsa06 and mpsa56). I've been running the amp for about an hour and all seems fine; the 60hz is gone and the general noise level out of both channels seems lower but that may just be placebo lol...

As i figured though every transistor i pulled out tested fine and none looked like it had any damage or had any sort of heat deformation
Well, glad it's fixed!

What exactly did you end up doing? Did you replace the pnp and npn transistors with new transistors, or just put the old ones back in? Something must have been up if you fixed it by pulling them!

I wonder if you just had some bad solder contacts, and pulling and re-installing them created a new, better connection. IDK. Either way, glad you figured it out!
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Re: Need help repairing an XS4600

Post by computerjlt »

all the mpsa06 & 56 transistors were replaced.

i tested each old one as i pulled it out and found no faults but one is obviously bad
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