best pg sq amp ever

[Eric D]

OK, for the rest of you reading this thread...

If you happen to notice, I never made any mention as to what PG amp I think sounds the best. There is an important reason for this.

I have A/B tested almost all the PG amps I have owned, and some other models I had the privilege of working on, but did not own.

I cannot tell one PG amp from another. I have tried hard, and they all sound the same. Now I have been able to tell PG amps from other brands with little effort, so I know I am capable of hearing differences.

My theory as to why all PG amps sound the same is simple. Every PG amp uses the same output circuit design. The differences are in the quantity of parts, the operating voltages, and physical shapes of the actual traces on the board. So, there really is no question of what PG amp sounds the best for me, instead the question is "What PG amp best fits my needs?" (Disclaimer: the SD series and a few others like XS and Tantrum are not the same circuits, so they are open to SQ debate)

So what are your needs?

The actual features and technical designs of PG amps very widely.

-If you want dual mono and that marketing bullet matters to you, you need to look at the full length MS models (MS2125, MS2250, MPS2500, etc)
-If you want an on board crossover, you need to consider ZX, some M amps, and all the never ones from ZX onward.
-If you want Burr Brown and being able to make that claim to your other friends in your audio circles floats your boat, then the only choice is the new Elite.
-If you want the same output power at varying impedance, you need to look at Xenon, or possibly ZPA depending on the load.
-If you want balanced inputs, there is only once choice I can think of, and it is ZPA.

Over the years PG has made an amp to satisfy nearly every need of any customer. I personally think this is what sets PG apart from the competition. They have taken a tried and trued circuit design which to the best of my knowledge was developed in the garage of the guys who started the company, and added on power and features, plus stuck it in a wide variety of chassis designs over the years to make it appeal to anyone. There are not too many other companies which have done this.

Now for the opinions. This is where I stand on PG amps.

-If you want the best amp PG has ever made, the new Elite has to be it. Yes it has shortcomings, but its high points easily makes up for them.
-I personally feel the best LOOKING PG amp ever made is the ZPA, followed VERY closely by the ZX. I really like the Reactor more than all of them, but it is a limited model, so I don't think it counts. I obviously like industrial design with hard edges, not smooth curves.
-If you consider yourself a purist and like simple, clean design, with sound as its goal, the MS amp is for you. Nothing in PG history has been more "to the point" than the MS amp.
-If you consider yourself a purist, but don't have a lot of space, the M line may be for you. They pack a lot of power in a smaller package than the MS do.
-If you absolutely must have a Class A/B sub amp, the ZPA line is for you. They produce the most Class A/B power in the smallest space than any other PG amp I can think of (Ti1200 comes to mind, but I think it may be larger).

So after all my drawn out useless ranting here, I guess I only have one real point I am trying to make. PG has produced nothing but great products for years, and you can't really go wrong with any one of them, the only hard part is deciding what one fills your needs.

[Eric D]

It is obvious PG fans get really serious about which PG lineup is the best.

It is bad enough to have guys argue over which brand of car is best, but it would be downright strange for them to argue over which model from the same manufacturer is the best. Can you really argue a truck is better than a min van for example when they are designed for different roles? You might even find a small truck with the same engine as the mini van, so it starts becoming like this PG debate, the engine being analogous to the circuit in a PG amp. The engines may be the same, but if you have 4 kids, the truck will not fit your needs. If you heat with wood, you won't be hauling it in the mini van.

Shawn K for example thinks the ZPA is the best line from PG.
I know Nicco prefers the MS line and is very passionate about it as well.
Last I knew Stipud is into TIAL amps.
And it seems Francious70 is a Xenon guy.

Well folks, all 4 of those amps use a fundamentally identical voltage gain and output stage circuit. And these circuits are what give an amplifier its "character".

Each of these amps is indeed the best amp for the needs of the person who thinks so, but it does not mean each amp is the best for everyone's needs.

If you saw the walls of my basement, you would know right away what PG line I think is the best. I have spent the last few years finding "gems" and adorning the walls of my workshop with them.

[ttocs]

its a fun debate. On my mustang forum its always pushrod vs modular debate and all in good fun as well, they both make good power.

[paintguy]

The only problem I see with ZX amps is also a major problem with ZPA amps, the fans. As much as I prefer a fan in an amp, PG ran these fans way to fast. Either a ZX or a ZPA has too loud of fans to be used in the same cabin as the listener.

I hear what you're saying on this one. Or rather I would if my fans weren't so loud!

I'm running 4 ZX amps in the back of my estate car (station wagon?) so they are in the same air space as me. They really do get annoying on quieter music passages. And that is with them fitted underneath a false floor! The 4 similar sized fans I'm using to draw out out from the false floor space are silent in comparison.

Since you own so many ZX amps yourself, would you have any suggestions for alternatives? I believe they are slimmer than the average fan of that diameter.

[Eric D]

I think the fan in the ZX is actually a good one as far as air flow vs noise, and reliability is concerned. It just needs to be slowed down, or controlled by a better thermal circuit.

There are countless products for the computer overclocking and customization industry which could be used. If I had ZX or ZPA amps within ear range in my vehicle, I would probably run them off thermistor controled circuits with the thermistor attached to the heatsink. Some of the computer products are small enough to be mounted inside the chassis of the amplifier.

[paintguy]

Neat idea, thanks.

[nutxo]

Neat idea, thanks.

meh. I used to write for an overclocking site. A guy did an article and how to on fan noise and how to quiet them. Apparently you can dull the blades with sandpaper and not lose any air flow.

[zeropoint0.5]

Neat idea, thanks.

meh. I used to write for an overclocking site. A guy did an article and how to on fan noise and how to quiet them. Apparently you can dull the blades with sandpaper and not lose any air flow.

next to the speed of a fan , it is the bearing type that causes more or less noise !!!!

the panaflo fans in the V1 models(zx , zpa) bearing type was hydro wave, the adda fans in the V2 models were ball bearing.

ball bearing will make way more noise.....

I would love to hear from Shawn K witch type of fans he now uses or would use next to the original one ??

[paintguy]

the panaflo fans in the V1 models(zx , zpa) bearing type was hydro wave, the adda fans in the V2 models were ball bearing.

ball bearing will make way more noise.....

I'll have a listen tomorrow. I have 3 V2's and a single V1. My midbass ZX350's are one of each version running exactly the same load so I ought be able to get a good comparison

[shawn k]

next to the speed of a fan , it is the bearing type that causes more or less noise !!!!

the panaflo fans in the V1 models(zx , zpa) bearing type was hydro wave, the adda fans in the V2 models were ball bearing.

ball bearing will make way more noise.....

I would love to hear from Shawn K witch type of fans he now uses or would use next to the original one ??

Honestly bro, I didn't use anything super special when I changed out the fans in my ZPA's. All 5 of my amps had ADDA fans which specs are 29.7 cfm @ 34.4db. I replaced them with Sunon which are 33 cfm @ 28 db. So the Sunon's are capable of more air flow and are significantly quieter, as well as being quite affordable!

Now if someone wanted to really go nuts, they can certainly spend some serious dough on some fans that are even better performing. I had already spent several hundred bucks on parts for restoring all of these amps so I had to comprmise at least a little when it came to the fans

[zeropoint0.5]

next to the speed of a fan , it is the bearing type that causes more or less noise !!!!

the panaflo fans in the V1 models(zx , zpa) bearing type was hydro wave, the adda fans in the V2 models were ball bearing.

ball bearing will make way more noise.....

I would love to hear from Shawn K witch type of fans he now uses or would use next to the original one ??

Honestly bro, I didn't use anything super special when I changed out the fans in my ZPA's. All 5 of my amps had ADDA fans which specs are 29.7 cfm @ 34.4db. I replaced them with Sunon which are 33 cfm @ 28 db. So the Sunon's are capable of more air flow and are significantly quieter, as well as being quite affordable!

Now if someone wanted to really go nuts, they can certainly spend some serious dough on some fans that are even better performing. I had already spent several hundred bucks on parts for restoring all of these amps so I had to comprmise at least a little when it came to the fans

Do you have a link for those sunon fans ? i'll take a look......thank you.....

[shawn k]

Do you have a link for those sunon fans ? i'll take a look......thank you.....

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/e ... =EE80251s3

[Eric D]

Do you have a link for those sunon fans ? i'll take a look......thank you.....

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/e ... =EE80251s3

Does that fan even fit in those amps? There is already a very small gap from the fan case to the heatsink, making it smaller would just choke the fan...

Besides, since 25mm deep fans are significantly easier to come by than 15mm deep fans, I would have guessed PG would have used 25mm in the first place had it been the better way to go.

Just a thought...

[shawn k]

Does that fan even fit in those amps? There is already a very small gap from the fan case to the heatsink, making it smaller would just choke the fan...

Besides, since 25mm deep fans are significantly easier to come by than 15mm deep fans, I would have guessed PG would have used 25mm in the first place had it been the better way to go.

Just a thought...

[/quote]


Yes, they fit. I've already installed them into my amps. I removed the rubber gasket for the stock fans and used a small amount RTV instead. There are no heatsink "spikes" directly under the fan so no worries there. The only concern is to clear the side petitions that seperate the the heatsinks from the guts.

[Rexarmy]

If you saw the walls of my basement, you would know right away what PG line I think is the best. I have spent the last few years finding "gems" and adorning the walls of my workshop with them.

This may be a no no but how about some nice pics of the wall/display .

[paintguy]

Well I agree with zeropoint above - the v1 fan makes much less noise than the v2 ones, but even that is way louder than the 4 fans I have pulling air out of the false floor area (and I mean all 4 added together!). To be fair they are thermistor controlled so will only be ticking over most of the time, but even on full speed they are individually much quieter than the ones in the amps.

[zeropoint0.5]

Well I agree with zeropoint above - the v1 fan makes much less noise than the v2 ones, but even that is way louder than the 4 fans I have pulling air out of the false floor area (and I mean all 4 added together!). To be fair they are thermistor controlled so will only be ticking over most of the time, but even on full speed they are individually much quieter than the ones in the amps.

witch fan's are those ??? sounds interesting...... you got pics of it or a link where you ordered them ??

[paintguy]

A pair either side, exhausting air into the space behind the side panels which in turn expels to the outside of the car through the OE vents hidden behind the bumper cover.

Arctic Cooling F8 Pro TC

At temps below 32°C they run as low as 500 RPM, speeding up to 2000 RPM (33 CFM) as the temperature increases.

Note the special mounting arrangement. The moving parts of the fan are suspended on rubber mounts so no vibration is transmitted to the frame. This means they can only be used as exhaust fans though so wouldn't be suitable for use inside my ZX amps. Arctic do a similar temp controlled fan with a regular frame though which might work (Arctic F TC)

[00goobs]

If you saw the walls of my basement, you would know right away what PG line I think is the best. I have spent the last few years finding "gems" and adorning the walls of my workshop with them.

This may be a no no but how about some nice pics of the wall/display .

X2...

I only have a floor display, I gave up my front room workshop...


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