Red this on the JL audio facebook page lately........

[ttocs]

no I challenged you to go prove your point and you said you would. You then waited 24 hrs while thinking it over and then come back on saying you never had any intention of doing it. Like I said it proves my point just as well as you melting down your alt. Even better if you consider it showes that you do not follow through with what you say and what you believe in.

So thanks.

[shawn k]

no I challenged you to go prove your point and you said you would. You then waited 24 hrs while thinking it over and then come back on saying you never had any intention of doing it. Like I said it proves my point just as well as you melting down your alt. Even better if you consider it showes that you do not follow through with what you say and what you believe in.

So thanks.

Interesting how you can debate only by "attempting" to make others "prove" something.

This whole video thing is simpy laughable man. You didn't "challenge" anything..lol Not only is it rediculous to rely on something like this just to have a debat, but you also want me to make a video that completey contradicts what I have been saying. Of coarse I won't "follow through" with something that goes against my own beliefs! So NO.. NO I certainly didn't have ANY intention of making ANY video. (especially the obsurdity of the one you're describing) It's silly man. You don't even know what you're arguing about, yet you persist on and on.

As I have guessed, you obviously have not gone back through the thread and at least attempt to comprehend everything I've said. I know it's a tall order, but seriously man, you NEED to go back through the posts and take a look at what I've said.

[ttocs]

I find it laughable that you are "debating" the necessity of a fuse for safety when there is nothing to loose short of the money out of your pocket. Please tear yourself away from the need to plant yourself across from what ever point eric and I make and then twist things around to try and make yourself out to make sence. You have now admited that it would have a good chance at smoking the alt SO WHAT IS THERE TO LOOSE again except for the $10 or and agreeing with me and eric?

[shawn k]

I find it laughable that you are "debating" the necessity of a fuse for safety when there is nothing to loose short of the money out of your pocket.

LOL.. I said it was "unnecessary" not that you "shouldn't" or "couldn't do it!

Please tear yourself away from the need to plant yourself across from what ever point eric and I make and then twist things around to try and make yourself out to make sence.

First of all, Last I checked, I'm a member of the Phoenix Phorum as well and as far as I knew, Stipud is the forum Moderator/owner and not you. So far, Tom has not asked me to leave so unless that day comes, I'll feel free to involve myself in "any" thread that my little heart desires

2nd I'm not sure why you have to follow Eric around like some cute little puppy dog (I'm sorry man, but this is all I get from you) At least Eric tries to add credible information to the threads he's involved in.

Finally, I pride myself in "NOT" twisting things around. I take the time to actually try and comprehend what people state in their posts before posting myself. Even if it means reading posts mulitple times to get it right. I can also confidently say that I don't misquote people.

These are things that I just simply don't see you (and at times Eric too) doing. Hey, I'm just calling it like it is!

You have now admited that it would have a good chance at smoking the alt SO WHAT IS THERE TO LOOSE again except for the $10 or and agreeing with me and eric?

I had admitted right in the very beginning the and alternator can be harmed by a short on the charge cable. If you would have taken the time to go back and re read my posts, you would have seen this. But no..you would prefer to say that "I" twist things around, when in fact, I've been standing my ground this entire time

I will not agree with you because you seem to think that a fuse will protect the alternator when it simply will not. Again... all of this content has already been covered within this thread.

[stipud]

I've gotten in the middle of enough internal flamewars, and have lost enough friends from it. With a ton of projects at work and a kid on the way, I just don't have the time anymore, to be honest. I'd rather you debated car audio/hobby topics, but I also realize that tensions rise. Hell, venting can be fun from time to time, and makes for some entertaining threads. I do feel like you guys must be getting bored of the same old routine though?

In the end the best I can do right now is be a good facilitator. Since you guys are all smart and reasonable, I'll let you figure out how to proceed from here. This community belongs to all of you, so you can make what you will of it. I value all of your technical contributions. From my perspective I honestly think you guys have a ton in common, all have a well above average car audio understanding, and tend to agree on most major issues... yet you spend all day arguing semantics. My recommendation is that everyone simply post their opinion on a topic once or twice, and only break down into an argument when they think it furthers an interesting discussion. Don't hunt for things to call each other out on just for the sake of it, drop the allegiances, and especially the "yeah but you said..." stuff. Those are the sorts of things that cause it to break down into monkey poop throwing fits. Chilllll

[ttocs]

I had come to basically the same conclusion last night tom, sorry I took his bait. I am not sure why he feels the need to argue such a minor point on the idea that "its rare anything would happen to this wire" because if we lived in perfect worlds we would never need to fuse a power wire. But after even you mention that you thought your charge wire had melted because it needed a fuse and other say they have seen people weld with them he still feels the need to attack what I am saying = nothing more then "why the hell wouldn't you put a fuse in"?

As I said above I am not sure why he feels the need to plant a flag directly across from anything that eric and I say and argue till he is blue in the face often both sides of the coin funny enough too. At this point I don't care what his need for attention is and will no longer let him bait me into the flames he likes to fan. Thinkin that eric and I are BFF only showes that he has not been on here nearly as long as he thinks he has and knows not nearly as much as he thinks he does. The fact that our opinions aligned aginst what sean said wasn't our fault it was his.

[shawn k]

I had come to basically the same conclusion last night tom, sorry I took his bait. I am not sure why he feels the need to argue such a minor point on the idea that "its rare anything would happen to this wire" because if we lived in perfect worlds we would never need to fuse a power wire. But after even you mention that you thought your charge wire had melted because it needed a fuse and other say they have seen people weld with them he still feels the need to attack what I am saying = nothing more then "why the hell wouldn't you put a fuse in"?

As I said above I am not sure why he feels the need to plant a flag directly across from anything that eric and I say and argue till he is blue in the face often both sides of the coin funny enough too. At this point I don't care what his need for attention is and will no longer let him bait me into the flames he likes to fan. Thinkin that eric and I are BFF only showes that he has not been on here nearly as long as he thinks he has and knows not nearly as much as he thinks he does. The fact that our opinions aligned aginst what sean said wasn't our fault it was his.

[Mr. Wild]

My two eurocents..

If the charging wire shorts, the fuse at the battery end blows. If the alternator keeps on charging I'm pretty sure the diodes in the alternator will fry. If not then the alternator will overheat and fry.
It's also quite probable that the belt will start slipping if the alt is shorted.

An alternator can dump more current than what its rated for. The rated value means how much current it can make continuously without overheating and the voltage dropping.

If car makers don't fuse the charging cable at the alt end this is probably because the charging cable is sufficiently protected so a short is very improbable. And even if a short occurs then just the alt will be broken and thats all. No risk of fire is the main consideration.

[shawn k]

My two eurocents..

If the charging wire shorts, the fuse at the battery end blows. If the alternator keeps on charging I'm pretty sure the diodes in the alternator will fry. If not then the alternator will overheat and fry.
It's also quite probable that the belt will start slipping if the alt is shorted.

Yes I agree, and in my defense, is also what I've been saying this whole time.

An alternator can dump more current than what its rated for. The rated value means how much current it can make continuously without overheating and the voltage dropping.

I'm not so sure about this. I've done quite a bit of research on this these past couple of days, and from what I've gathered, the alternator is capable of only dumping as much current as the magnetic flux & windings allows (as well as the rectifiers). This is where they come up with the "current" rating (how many amps it can deliver). Even "if" an alternator could somehow supply more current than it's rated for, it sill does not make it feasible to fuse the charge line at the alternator. You would have to ask yourself just exactly what fuse rating should I install here because it's still very much possible that you could blow that fuse while you are driving down the road and taxing the charging system. Yes, it's possible to blow this fuse without even sorting out the charge line!

From what I've seen first hand, manufacturers that do fuse the charge line (at the battery) tend to use a fuse rating that is "slightly" larger than what the alternator is rated for (90 amp alternator with a 100 amp fuse at the battery for instance). This makes sense as the the fuse would only blow if there were a short on the charge line, but would "not" blow if the alternator was working at it's full potential.

Now it is possible for an alternator to produce much more Voltage than what it's rated for. (this of coarse would only happen if the alternator was defective or damaged) But this is not the same problem as having too much current.

[ttocs]

[Eric D]

Shawn, you have not been here long enough to know that ttocs is actually someone whom I have had some of the most heated and hostile debates this forum has probably seen. These debates were much worse than anything you have thrown my way. The only difference is eventually ttocs and I came to an understanding that we are not going to change each other's opinion, so there is not much point in either of us trying. Saying he follows me around like a puppy is pretty disrespectful, considering him and I have been at each other's throats so many times before.

Stipud and I have had some heated and hostile debates as well. We get along fine now.

There are not too many people I CAN'T get along with. It just takes time for me to understand their personality, and them to understand mine.

I get along with everyone I work with, and many people often comment on how "easy going" I am, and how well I handle stressful situations. The Internet is an awful place to argue with people. Text does not reveal sarcasm, or any level of emotion. Neither party involved is likely ever on the same page with the whole discussion.

I know without a doubt I have issues talking down to people, and being bull headed. But, this is a car audio forum, not a NASA mars mission forum. Car audio is a hobby that for many, starts in middle school, before they even have a vehicle, and then grows until a bit after they graduate, then for most they are done and move on to other things. I don't remember any Nobel prizes being handed out for car audio, or any major universities offering classes on car audio theory. It takes a ton of energy for myself and all the other well informed people on this forum to help those with questions, knowing in the back of our mind they will probably take the advice of their friend's older brother before that of a us, complete strangers. I personally am now over 30, and I want to help were I can, but it gets harder every day, harder to deal with grammar, harder to deal with un-logical thinking, and above all, harder to deal with people mulling over every post made, looking for opportunities to call somebody out on...

[Eric D]

I've gotten in the middle of enough internal flamewars, and have lost enough friends from it. With a ton of projects at work and a kid on the way, I just don't have the time anymore, to be honest. I'd rather you debated car audio/hobby topics, but I also realize that tensions rise. Hell, venting can be fun from time to time, and makes for some entertaining threads. I do feel like you guys must be getting bored of the same old routine though?

In the end the best I can do right now is be a good facilitator. Since you guys are all smart and reasonable, I'll let you figure out how to proceed from here. This community belongs to all of you, so you can make what you will of it. I value all of your technical contributions. From my perspective I honestly think you guys have a ton in common, all have a well above average car audio understanding, and tend to agree on most major issues... yet you spend all day arguing semantics. My recommendation is that everyone simply post their opinion on a topic once or twice, and only break down into an argument when they think it furthers an interesting discussion. Don't hunt for things to call each other out on just for the sake of it, drop the allegiances, and especially the "yeah but you said..." stuff. Those are the sorts of things that cause it to break down into monkey poop throwing fits. Chilllll

Congratulations and good luck with the kid. Mine turned 1 a few weeks ago, and even with his young age has been nothing but a blast. I know I am probably a broken record as far as what everyone says, but children can easily be the most rewarding part of life. I now have a second on the way, so maybe my attitude will differ in a year, but I doubt it.

[Audiophiliac]

Threads like this are good entertainment. Watching people argue is awesome! I have been alive over 34 years and have not once....ever....seen nor heard about the charging cable between the battery and alternator shorting out. I really do not understand why the debate exists here. If you are really that worried about something that unlikely to happen, you may as well stop driving altogether because you are more likely to die in an accident.

Congrats on the forthcoming offspring stipud! It is definitely a life changer. And Eric, 2 is a lot more than double the work as the first! Mine are 2 years old and 3 months.....both a handful. And when you only have 2 hands, you cannot do much else when you are home. Hobbies get put on the back burner very quickly......and you do not miss them really. And then when you do get free time, you are happy to just rest and do nothing. That is why it took me almost 2 years to put my car back together and get some tunes in it.

[audiophyle_247]

Congrats on the forthcoming offspring stipud! It is definitely a life changer. And Eric, 2 is a lot more than double the work as the first! Mine are 2 years old and 3 months.....both a handful. And when you only have 2 hands, you cannot do much else when you are home. Hobbies get put on the back burner very quickly......and you do not miss them really. And then when you do get free time, you are happy to just rest and do nothing. That is why it took me almost 2 years to put my car back together and get some tunes in it.

Could not agree with this entire statement any more, my 2.5yo son is a riot and a handful and I dont think I'd have it any other way. lol

[shawn k]

My daughter is 5 and just started kindergarten a couple of weeks ago. It seems like time accelerates exponentially when you have kids! And I'm with you guys.... my current install is closing in on a full year now and I've still got a good 10-15% more to go.

[ttocs]

strangly enough to get back on topic I do have a question about it. while I do have an HO alt I also have both batteries in the trunk. With both of my batts being in the trunk, and the charge line being a 0 awg wire that goes down to the back seat location where it splits at the isolator and goes back to both batts what size fuse would you run up front? Fuse it at the batts max output or just under the rating? I assume in a situation like this with batts in the trunk that a fuse up front would be done, if you don't want to do it then great thanks...

[shawn k]

There's really no way to fuse for what a battery is capable of . Most car batteries are capable of 600..800..1000 amps or even more if a short happened. You typically want to fuse your charge cable for what ever the current rating is for the 1/0 at the distance you're planning on running (which for 1/0ga that is pure copper @ 15ft is roughly 200 amps) The cable can handle much more current than that before it burns up, but that is what it's capable of with only a 5% voltage drop (which is a good guideline) and on a continuous basis.

However, your situation is unique in that you need to provide enough current for your starter to turn the car over. That is really what you need to determine (the amount of current that your starter needs), and fuse back at the batteries for that.

[ttocs]

batteries are fused on the battery terminal.