mp3=week bass?

NappyFro · Post by **NappyFro** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:46 pm

So about 2 weeks or so ago, i switched out my jl audio 15w0v2 for the new phoenix gold elite 12, and suddenly the bass in my system is almost non existent. I have the mp3 track sss bass test , and when i play that track everything seams fine(loads of bass). i also have a mp3 track of bassotronics, bass i love you, and that track doesnt hit like it should. today at work, i popped in a store bought cd that had the track from bass mekanik, welcome stranger, and my sub sounded like a sub should sound.

Im talking it that the elite 12 doesnt like low bit rate mp3's or even mp3's at all. Is there a way i can improve my bass somehow by adding on a basscube, epicenter, start looking for mp3's that are 320kbps/flac. or am i S.O.L. and need to start buying store bought cd's?

my system is:

head unit: jvc KD-A95BT(using ipod through a usb source)
processor: phoenix gold eq 215xi
front stage: phoenix gold ti6cs
sub: phoenix gold elite 12
amps: exile 600.4 and 1200.1

tia nappyfro

Mr. Wild · Post by **Mr. Wild** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:50 pm

Your sub may not be properly broken in. It only hits when there's a lot going on, but with more laid back material it just dies out. Give it the beans for a while.

davewaibel · Post by **davewaibel** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:58 pm

that is what you give up for convenience, that why epicenter, and pieces of that ilk continue to sell, go to audiocontrols website, and they go into further detail of how badly mp3 sucksssssss! yeah you can carry 50000 songs in a device the size of a pack of cigarrettes, but at what cost----- mp4 was supposed to expand on the faults, but never really realized the dream, I am sure eventually they will get there, just slightly before we run out of fossil fuel.

NappyFro · Post by **NappyFro** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:24 pm

so another question, i have the ability to purchase a basscube with everything(never seen power, has remote, box and manual). would this be better than an epicenter? or would it be better to get the epicenter over the basscube?

dvnt88 · Post by **dvnt88** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:06 am

Go for the basscube

...you won't be sorry

. Both are great units, but the basscube is just ridiculous when it comes to bringin' the bass back to life

.

Post by **ttocs** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:43 am

love me some bass-cube not sure I would go with out one now. Its easy enough to turn off but normally I just turn it down instead of off.

NappyFro · Post by **NappyFro** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:55 am

Cool, thanks for the info. Ive always wanted a basscube.

Not to talk down about the elite 12 by any means, and theres no way im switching back, but comparing the jl 15w0 to the elite 12. Why did the jl have a better response to the bass via mp3, than the elite 12? Is this something that entry level subs have over higher end subs? Just wondering

soundbit · Post by **soundbit** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:21 pm

what voice coil configuration are you running on the elite 12?

Post by **ttocs** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:07 pm

its a compressed music format even at high sampling rates you will loose something. Now as for different subs acting differently on the same tracks/format doesn't make much sence to me other then you are compairing a 12 to a 15. The differences that you hear is probably more to do with the notes being played are just a little more in that sub/enclosures sweet spot where it plays a little louder then the other one does. It doesn't have to do with the format it is playing as much as the notes it is playing.

If you told us about the enclosure sizes someone might be able to post up one of them nifty graphs that shows how the sub should react at each freq and show what the difference is.

zeropoint0.5 · Post by **zeropoint0.5** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:45 pm

buy the bass cube before you see it sell under you're eyes.....don't hesitate.....

mp3 sound sucks

when you have such a good and expensive stuff, please listen to original cd's, and you will here the difference day and night.....

no MP3 sound for me for sure

Drock · Post by **Drock** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:32 pm

I don't know much about the jl subs, what is the rated power for them? If there is a huge difference? The new elite needs lots of juice. The gains might just need to be set a lot higher on your amp. Could it be a combo of mp3 vs cd format? I could see this if you played two different sources. But If the same source is played no matter the quality, the bass would be the same. So I would think its more likely the box, or the gain.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

NappyFro · Post by **NappyFro** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:59 pm

soundbit wrote:what voice coil configuration are you running on the elite 12?

i currently have the elite 12 @ 2 ohms. the exile 1200.1 amp claims to be 400@4 ohms 800 @2 ohms, and 1200 @1 ohms

ttocs wrote:its a compressed music format even at high sampling rates you will loose something. Now as for different subs acting differently on the same tracks/format doesn't make much sence to me other then you are compairing a 12 to a 15. The differences that you hear is probably more to do with the notes being played are just a little more in that sub/enclosures sweet spot where it plays a little louder then the other one does. It doesn't have to do with the format it is playing as much as the notes it is playing.

If you told us about the enclosure sizes someone might be able to post up one of them nifty graphs that shows how the sub should react at each freq and show what the difference is.

i have a 2x4 in there thats screwed from front to back, i know that it doesnt take up too much space, but wanted to put that out there for someone thats willing to make one of those nifty graphs

this is the same box i had the jl 15w0 in, i just made a new piece to go over the 15 hole, caulked and screw. i know that this isnt the ideal way to do it, but i wanted to see what it sounded like before i made a new box.

i use the track sss bass test to demo my stereo, the subs starts really kicking in when the bass hits the 110 cycle, other than that, i dont know what frequency blue berry yum yum by ludicris, bourbons and cadillac by master p, or any other songs that dropped when i had my jl in it, but compared to the pg, its night and day difference, it almost seams like my amp is turned down all the way down.

im slowly figuring out that mp3's arnt the way to go, but im also trying to figure out why the pg isnt responsive to mp3 track like the jl was. its kinda hard to explain the difference, without someone here listing to the difference between the two. i just guess i need to stop typing, and go out and get a store bought cd of something, and compare the cd vs 120kbps mp3 vs 320kbps mp3 etc.

zeropoint0.5 wrote:buy the bass cube before you see it sell under you're eyes.....don't hesitate.....

mp3 sound sucks

when you have such a good and expensive stuff, please listen to original cd's, and you will here the difference day and night.....

no MP3 sound for me for sure

the owner of the basscube wont sell it from under me. he is a good friend of mine for over 20 years, and if he says hes gonna sell it to me, than he's is gonna not sell it to someone else. he is also my boss at the radio shop too.

Drock wrote:I don't know much about the jl subs, what is the rated power for them? If there is a huge difference? The new elite needs lots of juice. The gains might just need to be set a lot higher on your amp. Could it be a combo of mp3 vs cd format? I could see this if you played two different sources. But If the same source is played no matter the quality, the bass would be the same. So I would think its more likely the box, or the gain.

the 15w0 is rated 500 rms, i believe it recommends a 2.85 cubic foot box.

this is the sss bass track im talking about

sorry for blabbing, i just dont know how to really explain the difference on a keyboard. i just fell in love with mp3's after my old car got broken into and had over 500 cd's stolen from me

Post by **ttocs** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:53 am

so you are using the same ported box for the two different woofers? Not only is it not an apples/apples comparison by compairing a 12 to a 15 but to keep them both in the same box - that is why you are loosing output on the 12. A box is not a box is a box is a box and a improperly ported box you are lucky it sounds good at all, if it does.

Starunit10 · Post by **Starunit10** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:45 am

could have saved a lot of typing, if you would have mentioned you recycled your franken box first ! Build a new box to spec. Where I am a new sheet of 3/4 mdf is $38. and the screws about $4.

Post by **ttocs** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:14 am

its all about those funny little details.

NappyFro · Post by **NappyFro** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:07 am

I was told buy one person that box is 3.0@28 hz. Isnt that what the elite 12 is rated for, for a sq box? Idk im not good at calculating a ported box. Can someone please tell me the specs for the box mention above? If the box is off, than im down for building a new box.

ajaye · Post by **ajaye** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:06 pm

Just playing devil's advocate, but I've played 320kbps mp3s (even lower bit rate on occasion) on a few of the most regarded club installations on the east coast, and I can guarantee you that no one had any idea they were mp3s simply by listening. For most listeners, an mp3 will be more distinguishable by artifacts that result from encoding than any loss of audio content. That said, I am a huge proponent of lossless format, and in some cases high resolution, but there are far too many factors for a cut and dry argument on mp3 bitrate and quality. Source material quality (youtube rip vs original cd), the source material itself, type of encoder, metadata of the file, specifically replay gain setting, etc. Plus you still have knuckleheads that think re-ripping a 128kbps file to 320kbps does some type of magical restoration of quality, and you have no idea who has done what to a file outside of either purchasing it from itunes or the like, or ripping it yourself.

The first thing I would check is the replay gain of the specific files you are having problems with. The easiest way is to open in itunes, right click->get info. Under the options tab, you have a preset "volume" which should be set to "none" assuming the rip was done right. You also have an equalizer preset that I think carries over to idevices. If you want to get more advance, open the mp3 in audacity, check peak amplitude and if you have more than a couple db of headroom, normalize the file to -0.5 db peak. Just make sure you export the edited version as a wav file or some other lossless format, since you are starting with an mp3 file you don't want to compress it again.

In my opinion, if you are ripping the tracks yourself from a cd, or are sure of the fact that the files were done so properly, than there is little to be gained from lossless in the car for normal listening over a 320kbps mp3, unless you have some serious money sunk into your system's design and tuning. If you have the option, I would never go below 320kbps, this is the generally accepted "happy medium" between file storage capacity and a reasonable level of fidelity. Of course, there are always exceptions.

Wrennagade · Post by **Wrennagade** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:19 pm

Just a thought...

I notice a huge difference in overall volume when I play different sources. CD's are LOUD, USB stick is LOUD, but my ZUNE is lower. Before my car got broke into I had built a little "OP AMP" or head phone amplifier that increased my initial MP3 players volume before it got to the headunit & it helped alot as far as making the MP3 source as loud as the CD's & so forth. I'm thinking of making another as I found the instructions online & it's a pretty cheap build (http://hackaday.com/2011/05/01/lm386-altoids-tin-amp/)... Love my bass cube too

ajaye · Post by **ajaye** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:09 am

Wrennagade wrote:Just a thought...

I notice a huge difference in overall volume when I play different sources. CD's are LOUD, USB stick is LOUD, but my ZUNE is lower. Before my car got broke into I had built a little "OP AMP" or head phone amplifier that increased my initial MP3 players volume before it got to the headunit & it helped alot as far as making the MP3 source as loud as the CD's & so forth. I'm thinking of making another as I found the instructions online & it's a pretty cheap build (http://hackaday.com/2011/05/01/lm386-altoids-tin-amp/)... Love my bass cube too

I wanna say the idevices are less than 1 volt at full blast ideal source material, so yeah depending on how you have it hooked up and with what other stuff, adding a gain stage/line driver/preamp can make a definite improvement. That is my plan, no head unit just mp3 player and preamp.

NappyFro · Post by **NappyFro** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:27 pm

ajaye wrote:
I wanna say the idevices are less than 1 volt at full blast ideal source material, so yeah depending on how you have it hooked up and with what other stuff, adding a gain stage/line driver/preamp can make a definite improvement. That is my plan, no head unit just mp3 player and preamp.

i had a mp3 player to my 215ix, than went back to using a hu. The hu made a difference with sq, and overall volume. Even tho i miss it, im glad i went back to using a radio.

On other note, we went to retune my eq levels today, and i noticed that some of the gains had move down, so we re-adjusted the sliders, and tweeked the input/output of the eq, and basically made the elite sound louder than the jl 15. Im probably end up still building a new box anyways, i was just using this box as a temp, till i can pay my landlord in back rent

ajaye · Post by **ajaye** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:05 pm

NappyFro wrote:
ajaye wrote:
I wanna say the idevices are less than 1 volt at full blast ideal source material, so yeah depending on how you have it hooked up and with what other stuff, adding a gain stage/line driver/preamp can make a definite improvement. That is my plan, no head unit just mp3 player and preamp.
i had a mp3 player to my 215ix, than went back to using a hu. The hu made a difference with sq, and overall volume. Even tho i miss it, im glad i went back to using a radio.

On other note, we went to retune my eq levels today, and i noticed that some of the gains had move down, so we re-adjusted the sliders, and tweeked the input/output of the eq, and basically made the elite sound louder than the jl 15. Im probably end up still building a new box anyways, i was just using this box as a temp, till i can pay my landlord in back rent

my fault I missed that you were going into the HU via USB. That is definitely the way to go barring a REALLY shitty head unit. I was talking the 1/8" analog output is <1v, the only way to adjust preamp gain going the USB route is through the file's replay gain setting or whatever adjustability your head unit offers, probably just attenuation (volume). Sounds like you are getting it straightened out regardless, good deal.

NappyFro · Post by **NappyFro** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:37 pm

thanks man, it just seamed really odd, that the bass wasnt as loud as it should have been. i must have bumped the 25 hz slider when i went to place the eq back, and didnt realized it. once we adjusted/re-tuned the eq, i was like, yeah that was my problem. Im still gonna grab that basscube anyhow, cause how often does a basscube and remote, thats never seen power pop up? Im also planning to build a sealed box this go around, cause im really tired of having no space in my truck.

and i apologize if i wasted anyone time here, for not checking out the simple things first.

audiophyle_247 · Post by **audiophyle_247** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:43 am

ajaye wrote:Just playing devil's advocate, but I've played 320kbps mp3s (even lower bit rate on occasion) on a few of the most regarded club installations on the east coast, and I can guarantee you that no one had any idea they were mp3s simply by listening. For most listeners, an mp3 will be more distinguishable by artifacts that result from encoding than any loss of audio content. That said, I am a huge proponent of lossless format, and in some cases high resolution, but there are far too many factors for a cut and dry argument on mp3 bitrate and quality. Source material quality (youtube rip vs original cd), the source material itself, type of encoder, metadata of the file, specifically replay gain setting, etc. Plus you still have knuckleheads that think re-ripping a 128kbps file to 320kbps does some type of magical restoration of quality, and you have no idea who has done what to a file outside of either purchasing it from itunes or the like, or ripping it yourself.

The first thing I would check is the replay gain of the specific files you are having problems with. The easiest way is to open in itunes, right click->get info. Under the options tab, you have a preset "volume" which should be set to "none" assuming the rip was done right. You also have an equalizer preset that I think carries over to idevices. If you want to get more advance, open the mp3 in audacity, check peak amplitude and if you have more than a couple db of headroom, normalize the file to -0.5 db peak. Just make sure you export the edited version as a wav file or some other lossless format, since you are starting with an mp3 file you don't want to compress it again.

In my opinion, if you are ripping the tracks yourself from a cd, or are sure of the fact that the files were done so properly, than there is little to be gained from lossless in the car for normal listening over a 320kbps mp3, unless you have some serious money sunk into your system's design and tuning. If you have the option, I would never go below 320kbps, this is the generally accepted "happy medium" between file storage capacity and a reasonable level of fidelity. Of course, there are always exceptions.

Could not agree more.
With high fidelity headphones & sitting in a quiet office, the differences between 320kbps and CD or FLAC are very subtle at most and typically just a minor difference in dynamics and harmonics.
In an environment with any ambient noise the differences between CD/FLAC & 320kbps will be close to inaudible, but 128kbps can easily be heard even on a medium level system. Assuming of course they are real 320kbps mp3s, not just re-compressed 128kbps songs up-sampled to 320kbps as previously mentioned.

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