MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

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mvpolo2k3
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Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:18 pm

MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by mvpolo2k3 »

Hi all, been a long time follower of the forum, but a new member. I have 2 MS2125 amps, and an MS275, and absolutely rave about them. One 2125 is in my theater, running 4-12" subs in a big ported box, running on a 50A power supply and supplemented with 2 kinetic batteries. The other is in my Yukon along with the 275, running 2-JL W6-V2 12's. Serial number is 21075, Rev C-1. BTW Im also in love with JL. I still have 4 original 12W6's NIB for a special day. Anywho, a few days ago I started to get intermittent cut outs while driving, mainly over bumps or during turns. Tested all my external wiring, everything seemed fine. Ive blown through 2 of the gold buss bars inside the amps (even at 2ohm load), and have since replaced one of them with a 4ga jumper (see pics). I thought it might have blown the other side of the buss bar, so I pulled the amp out and brought it inside.

This particular amp was bought off a co-worker while I did car audio in high school about 12 years ago. He said it had blown up and sent it back to PG for repair, and he had used it in an SPL car for many years after that before I bought it, but not very frequently. I have no idea if the caps are all original, but seeing that the input caps are leaking badly, I figured they were. There is a smoke image on the bottom of the cover, and it looks like a FET blew out originally, not a cap, since the board doesnt seem to have any damage. (see pics). I have used this amp in 5-6 different cars over the years, without any problems except the buss bars.

Well i figured out the problem with the amp turning on and off, the remote wire on the inside part of the connecting block worked it way loose. Im sure it doesnt help that the amp was mounted to the box, but I will be redoing that after the caps are done.

I have read on here that the MS2125 uses 50V rail caps, but mine are rated at 40V, and 10000uf, 105C. Im working on ordering parts to do all 3 amps ASAP, and wanted to know if someone had a DEFINITIVE answer on what the voltage reading should be. Im not sure if the rail caps have ever been done.

Im going to buy these for my input caps :493-1545-ND from digikey. at 35.5mm tall they are pushing the normal height limit, but i measured with a dial caliper and there is 37mm from board surface to bottom plate.

So is it 40V for rail caps, or 50V, and is there a particular part number you guys like to use? Ive seen a lot of topics like this but I want to know 100% before I do this to all my amps. I know the 275 might use different parts but I havent taken it out of the car yet.

Second question. With a 200A shunt meter hooked to the amp power leads, coming from a 2600 series Kinetic battery, with 0ga to a 10Farad cap, and GOOD 4ga going to the 2125, ive gotten readings of almost 175A sustained from current flow. I know there is supposed to be 2 40A fuses inside, mine has 50A (ive never replaced them so IDK). Does this seem possible. I know during peaks when the caps have to charge they will pull a lot of current, but I would think 100A would be my limit without blowing the fuses. Even before the shunt meter, I could pop a 150A blade fuse with a good deep bass song. Im assuming this is why I blew through one of the bus bars, twice. The that goes into the terminal block actually got so hot where it necks down it melted, and melted the block inside the plastic too. See pics. Is there an upgrade or a way to run 4ga (or hell even 0ga) directly to the board. Less transitions and connections the better I would think!

Another side note (i know a lot of questions). Ive seen a few of these that have a transistor piggybacked on another transistor in the middle of the heatsink. What revisions is this on? It looks like mine might have had those piggybacked ones at some point, but were removed? Any help would be great.

Ok now for some pics:

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inside smoke damage and possibly where the FETS went bad before
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electrolyte damage on the input caps, and pics of the ratings
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rail caps
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bad buss bar
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transistor piggyback maybe? 3 globs of solder in the middle of the lead makes me curious
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and finally, the loose damn remote wire. but not finding this and blowing a cap would have totally ruined my day.
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zeropoint0.5
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by zeropoint0.5 »

input caps should not be higher then 35mm......make sure they're 105°C

those blue are the original railcaps , 40V 10000mF 105°C. you don't need 50V for the ms2125

both glass fuses inside should have been 40A, not 50A.....having a higher value inside has maybe

made some damage inside.......

at what load did you use this amp ??

it can handle 2ohm mono, with a fan shroud. without fan shroud......don't !!!!!

If you played at lower than 2ohm mono, you're just destroying the amp.......

if you wanna play hard, go class D and save these beauty's for soundquality (on the speakers )


Bring the amp(s) in to Eric D or Valeks and let them repair.....don't make a mess first yourself....good advice.....
mvpolo2k3
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by mvpolo2k3 »

these amps have never been lower than 2 ohms, and i dont beat on them. they have 2 120mm fans pushing cold air directly on them, and they have never gone into thermal shutdown. I am VERY experienced with electronics i just dont happen to have schematics for this amp, and there has been maybe some misinformation on the forums about the rail caps needing to be 50V, but now I can move forward. I will change out those fuses to 40A, and start replacing the caps as soon as they come in.

Thanks for the info!!
Audiophiliac
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by Audiophiliac »

I have never heard of the actual buss bars failing. Would that not require some serious current? More than the amp should ever want or need under normal operating conditions anyway.

At least you have the right amps! I need to get my mps2500 refurbished so I can enjoy it! Tax return better get here quick.
mvpolo2k3
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by mvpolo2k3 »

ya mine melted right where it goes from about 1/2" wide to 1/4" where it goes into the power connecting block. live i said in the OP i dunno why the amp pulls so much power.
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Eric D
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by Eric D »

For a buss bar to melt, the connection on it was likely loose.

A fuse will blow LONG before the buss bar will start to melt.
Got "schooled" by member shawn k on May 10th, 2011...
No longer really "in tune" with the audio industry, and probably have not been for some time.
Hands down the forum's most ignorant member...
Don't even know what Ohm's law is...
mvpolo2k3
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by mvpolo2k3 »

could have been. i never took the bottom of the amp off until i had to fix the buss bar issue the first time. Im going to get some copper bars and try to make some like the originals, i dont like the 4ga jumper i did to fix it originally.
zeropoint0.5
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by zeropoint0.5 »

mvpolo2k3 wrote:these amps have never been lower than 2 ohms, and i dont beat on them. they have 2 120mm fans pushing cold air directly on them, and they have never gone into thermal shutdown. I am VERY experienced with electronics i just dont happen to have schematics for this amp, and there has been maybe some misinformation on the forums about the rail caps needing to be 50V, but now I can move forward. I will change out those fuses to 40A, and start replacing the caps as soon as they come in.

Thanks for the info!!
last night i started to repair a simular ms2125 where the owner had replaced all the caps himself.... result was, i desoldered again all the new rail caps

and found 3 of the 8 via's broken..... by this problem several components will be damaged also. better leave the big lightblue caps in !! there just fine.

replace the 12 ps caps, upgrade r345and r346 to a 5W model and with some space from the board(same value 620 OHM) and use new silpads.

you can buy silpads and even a gold buzz bar here from some members......

pm member Nico Boom for the silpads

pm member Joerg for the gold buzz bar


if you insist to do the job yourself, take you're time and be careful you don't damage the transistors when trying to get the board out......

But technicians hate to clean up the mess people made by trying to repair the amp themselves......that's all......
mvpolo2k3
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by mvpolo2k3 »

i totally understand your worries about the DIY crowd. This is something I can easily handle, my only issue is finding time. I work 80 hours a week and have a 9 month old at home. What would any of you guys charge me to do this to both 2125s and the 275? I just had the other 2125 at PG about a year ago to fix a clip light issue, not sure if they did the caps I will have to open it back up.
mvpolo2k3
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by mvpolo2k3 »

well i tore down the amp the other night and it looks like someone has been in this particular amp before :-(. take a look at these pics. there is a bunch of corrosion and what looks like melt marks or arcing marks on the plastic insulator. 2 of the pads on the bottom side of the amp by the input caps were missing, and around a bunch of the fets on the back side of the board are either badly repaired or maybe damaged. let me know what you guys think. I pulled the input caps off and plan on making new pads and vias to fix them. also, there was a few numbers carved into the aluminum under the plastic insulator? strange. Image
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mvpolo2k3
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by mvpolo2k3 »

ok so ive been mistaken, ive had my speaker amp in the yukon for so long i forgot that it wasnt a MS275, but its a MQ430. I pulled the bottom cover off and all the caps look great, no leaking. They have the same 220uf 16V input caps that the 2125 has, is it worth replacing them now, or should I leave them alone? The rail caps on the other hand are venting on the top and bubbling the sticker. These are rated at 25V and 15000uf. Heres a few pics of this amp. I know I should place this post under a different area of the forum, but since you guys have been very helpful I figured I would pick your brains first. Also, the mosfets look like they have cold solder joints. or maybe they come that way?
Heres a few pics of the beast :-)

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Eric D
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by Eric D »

I would carefully remove the stickers on the rail caps prior to removing the caps. It might just be a case of the stickers coming off, not the caps leak. Those blue caps seldom leak. It they are leaking it is often a sure sign of abuse, as it takes a lot of heat to get them to leak.
Got "schooled" by member shawn k on May 10th, 2011...
No longer really "in tune" with the audio industry, and probably have not been for some time.
Hands down the forum's most ignorant member...
Don't even know what Ohm's law is...
mvpolo2k3
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by mvpolo2k3 »

Eric, I took the stickers off the caps on the MQ-430 and they were just bubbles. I wasnt sure if the caps were vented on the top or just the bottom. Since none of them are leaking I will close it back up and plus it back in. Just ordered the caps for the 2 MS2125s from Digikey. Cant wait to have my tunes back in the car again!!
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Eric D
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by Eric D »

Be sure to replace the 6 smaller caps on the amp (2,200uF 16V on the input, and the similar sized caps on the rails), as those are leaking.
Got "schooled" by member shawn k on May 10th, 2011...
No longer really "in tune" with the audio industry, and probably have not been for some time.
Hands down the forum's most ignorant member...
Don't even know what Ohm's law is...
mvpolo2k3
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by mvpolo2k3 »

Eric are you talking about the input caps on the MS430 or the MS2125? The caps on the MQ arent leaking, but are still the original 2200uF units. Should I just do them anyways?
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Eric D
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by Eric D »

mvpolo2k3 wrote:Eric are you talking about the input caps on the MS430 or the MS2125? The caps on the MQ arent leaking, but are still the original 2200uF units. Should I just do them anyways?
If the caps on the MQ are original, they ARE leaking. ALL of these caps leak by this age. Just because you cannot see the leaking does not mean they are not leaking or are not internally breaking down.

When you don't replace them and your amp catches on fire, don't blame anyone but yourself.
Got "schooled" by member shawn k on May 10th, 2011...
No longer really "in tune" with the audio industry, and probably have not been for some time.
Hands down the forum's most ignorant member...
Don't even know what Ohm's law is...
mvpolo2k3
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by mvpolo2k3 »

hmm ok. well ill order up 6 more caps then. should I worry about the rail caps on this one at all?
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Eric D
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by Eric D »

You should worry about the 6 caps that are the same physical size. Two of those caps happen to also be rail caps on this amp (4 rail caps in all). Some MQ430s have these caps, some do not.
Got "schooled" by member shawn k on May 10th, 2011...
No longer really "in tune" with the audio industry, and probably have not been for some time.
Hands down the forum's most ignorant member...
Don't even know what Ohm's law is...
mvpolo2k3
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by mvpolo2k3 »

Eric, thanks again for all of your info. I got all the caps done on the 2125, the 4 rail caps, and the 12 input caps. I also replaced the 2 resistors with 5W models. All I could find in that big of a value were wirewound hopefully that wont make a difference. I got the amp fired up without the sink to make sure that everything was good to go, and the 4 red leds came on, and the green power light lit up. I noticed that 4 of the transistors on the board are now getting very hot. On the imput stage they are Q106, 107, 206, and 207. They get really hot, but then dont get to the point where they arent too hot to touch. My idle current with no loads and no inputs is about 4A, which seems pretty normal. Is this a side effect of the larger resistors? Anything else to look for? I checked all my caps for broken vias, each one has less that .1 Ohm to the next cap and the torroid on both cap leads. As far as the Sil-pads would you use them by themselves or put some sil-paste on each side of them? Thanks in advance!!! Jesse.
mvpolo2k3
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by mvpolo2k3 »

UPDATE! ok the amp idle current was reading off. my crappy meter on the power supply was around 4A (analog 20A meter, no numbers), but the Tektronix said 1.4A give or take. I had 2 bad vias on the input caps, all fixed now. The 5W 620 Ohm resistors at R345 and R346 are getting extremely hot after about 5 minutes of idle time. Not sure why? Also, one set of LEDs (left side) dim out faster than the right side once the remote goes to 0V. I have 77V between the small fuses on each side, and around 37.4V on the left rail and 38.4V on the right rail? I havent yet taken the cover off the other MS2125 to compare readings. Any advice would be great. Hell, ill even send the amp to one of you guys (Nico might be kinda far, im in California) to verify my repairs. Im usually not one to say I give up, but I love these amps too much to take a chance on ruining one long term, and since they were repaired before, not knowing what exactly was done Im a little in the dark. Thanks again guys for all the help.
trickyricky
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by trickyricky »

Never turn an amp on without it's sink, unless you know what your doing. Some components (especially those mounted to the sink, get extremely hot very quickly. It's usually the voltage regulators that run pretty hot.) You may have cause some damage to components.

Next time use a current limit resistor, to prevent major damage to components. Don't be lazy when it comes to amplifier repair, assembly on most amps are a PITA but it has to be done.
mvpolo2k3
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by mvpolo2k3 »

I only powered the amp up momentarily to make sure there were no big issues before I put the sink back on. There was no load hooked up, or inputs. none of the fets or transistors got even warm to the touch. The ones that did get hot were in the middle of the board, on the input stages. The voltage coming out of the power supply was 12V, not 14.4, and it was only pulling less than 2A.
mvpolo2k3
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by mvpolo2k3 »

Another update, just sent an email to ALTSER about taking a look at the amps to give them a clean bill of health. The Orion HCCA-D2400 I had running the subs now has blown a few FETS, and its a craigslist buy, so definitely out of warranty. I might be sending all 3 in. Thats gonna be a heavy box :(
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freshkryp69
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by freshkryp69 »

mvpolo2k3 wrote:Another update, just sent an email to ALTSER about taking a look at the amps to give them a clean bill of health. The Orion HCCA-D2400 I had running the subs now has blown a few FETS, and its a craigslist buy, so definitely out of warranty. I might be sending all 3 in. Thats gonna be a heavy box :(

Cant go wrong with Altser!! he can work magic on these. there a few mods to the MS amps he can do to promote a more robust amp, like switching out the power supply fet's from irfp44's for 54's or 64's. Higher amp ratings on those will protect the amp during low voltage, just incase! Good insurance and they are only a couple bucks apiece. If you want to just get the most out of these possible, all the capacitors, panasonic FC series for the power supply input's are very good caps! 8200uf @ 16v 2 dollar and change apiece from digikey. The rail caps you can use panasonic TSHA snapin caps which are very good caps, lots of high end amps use them.. You go a couple steps further and replace the op-amps for some AD's or BurrBrown's. They are a step up from the op-amps made 20+ years ago, and they are cheap, and every lil bit helps.. These amps are the ultimate DIY amps to own! They will be always one of my favorite!
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mvpolo2k3
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Re: MS2125 Capacitor Rating Question

Post by mvpolo2k3 »

still no reply for Altser. Ive emailed and left voicemails. Anybody know where he is? Im moving soon and dont want these amps to get lost in the boxes, Id rather send them out and know where they are.
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