12 or 15?

[ttocs]

your saying focal and kicker have the same build house? I did not know that.

[kg1961]

Focal is not a loud sub fast and tight.
The 16" like sound like a ok loud 12" but blend with the mid bass as its fast.
I have owned it and the spl15 very nice but the output is not huge or loud like a normal 15"

[ttocs]

interesting. I am not so worried about fast bass as I figured the 9's up front would cover that area just wanting a bad-assed sub for the low end. The 9s cross over point I believe is 50-110 hz IIRC. So between an idmax or a focal what would you say?

[kg1961]

Idmax hands down

[ttocs]

that's cool, its cheaper anyway. Although I did like the look of the magnets on the focal a little better since it will be mounted inverted.

[kg1961]

Id would be one of my favorite subs ever i owned a 12" i could not imagine a 15

[ttocs]

its a better match for the power I will have as well. I will have to see how much space I can squeeze out of the space I have but hopefully I can get as close to the 3 cubes recommended for sq. I have never had a big ass sub like this before hopefully with the 9s up front it will all blend nicely and bang like hell when needed.

[kg1961]

It will!!!! Didn't you already buy a pg elite 12?

[ttocs]

no I was considering them but never did get one.

[kg1961]

no I was considering them but never did get one.

Trust me you will love that sub
And if you don't i will buy off you

[vwdude]

Just an FYI, when you invert a 15" it ends up with similar cone area as a 12" sub. It would be a little better than a 12, but it would give decreased output as compared to the same sub non-inverted. I know this because I had a pair of 12w6v2 inverted in an old install and when I went conventional (everything else the same) the output increased significantly.

[ttocs]

That would be the first time I have ever heard that inverting a sub reduces output. Is there a scientific reason for it? I was always taught that as long as the box is built right it doesn't matter which way its mounted.

[vwdude]

Yes, the science is that a cone area is the surface area in which it can move air. When you invert a sub, the center of the cone is essentially gone because the pole piece/voice coil are attached. The remaining surface are is what's around that, which is less surface area. I'm willing to bet that with just one sub (depending on the diameter of the voice coil) you might be able to tell a huge difference, but I was running a pair of subs and it made a noticeable difference when I changed the install.

[ttocs]

anyone else heard this? I have done more then a few systems with inverted woofers and never noticed a lack of output. To say the cone is gone seems a bit strange to me.

[ttocs]

Does that mean no one else has heard of this or its such common knowledge that I should have known this years ago? The more I think about it the less it makes sense to me. I could understand the output being reduced if the box was made for the speaker to be mounted normal and then when inverted now the box is too big with out the drivers displacement.

[dwnrodeo]

Just an FYI, when you invert a 15" it ends up with similar cone area as a 12" sub. It would be a little better than a 12, but it would give decreased output as compared to the same sub non-inverted. I know this because I had a pair of 12w6v2 inverted in an old install and when I went conventional (everything else the same) the output increased significantly.

Did you switch the phase 180 degrees when you switched to conventional mounting or did you leave the polarity the same? Essentially by going from inverted to conventional, you are changing the drivers phase 180 degrees acoustically from what they were. This will have a massive effect on output. From everything I've read, inverting the subs mounting should have little to no effect on output. I've never tried this before so I have no experience to verify.

[ttocs]

having your subs 180 out of phase will effect output but not in a huge manor assuming that all the subs are going the same direction. A lot of amps have/had a phase switch on them to allow you to easily switch it at the amp and I know from switching it that it might lower it a little out of phase but its nothing huge. Now I also built a large system for a customer with 4 - 12" x-max(each powered by a zx500 bridged) and we had two subs regular, and two of them inverted. We just didn't think about it when we first hooked them up and tuned each amp seperatly till they were bumping, and then turned them both on and then it was obvious as the bass output was nearly 0. Turned it off and swapped the inverted subs and then it was rattling the hell out of the light fixtures.

[vwdude]

Well as ttocs said, as long as he subs match each other then polarity is not as important. And yes I tried phasing it both ways, not much difference (as long as the subs matched each other).

I'm not saying that you won't hear anything, but I did notice a decrease in output. It likely won't be noticeable unless you plan to compete for SPL. I just wanted to make you aware.

[ttocs]

I have built a few systems with inverted subs and never noticed a problem nor ever heard anyone say that myself. I am a "believe it when I see it" kind of guy and not sure what to think with the lack of responses as to if anyone else heard this. Just doesn't make sense to me. I mean if the spider moving doesn't count because it lets air through it then isn't the cone right behind it to move the air? I will be doing a single sub so there isn't a problem with matching other then blending them into the ti 9's up front and even if this is a known fact I have missed for years, pretty sure it will still be heard and felt.

[oilworker]

ya know its funny as we all know Rockford makes killer subs, but there is something weird in me about hooking a Rockford sub on a pg amp. I think its just because I never saw them both at one shop and the one I worked at that had pg, well RF was our competitions leading line.

One of the shops I worked at sold both RF and PG and I still made an effort not to mix and match them. It just seemed weird to me as well.
Most of the time when using PG amps, I used Image Dynamics subs.

[oilworker]

The Alpine Type R 15 is an awesome sub. I have used them for years. They work best in a ported enclosure. I tried them in a sealed enclosure in my new car and did not like it at all.

[knightrider358]

The Alpine Type R 15 is an awesome sub. I have used them for years. They work best in a ported enclosure. I tried them in a sealed enclosure in my new car and did not like it at all.

I second that! Hate to hear one in a vette thou [emoji6]