Elite amplifier gain setting

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keith2728
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Elite amplifier gain setting

Post by keith2728 »

Reading the instructions on how to set gain on elite amplifiers i was a little perplexed. they have different voltage levels to set each channel depending on the impedance of the speakers you are using, this makes sense until you read your doing the calibration without speakers connected. If the speakers are disconnected during the procedure how can the results be impedance dependent?
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Old guy who forgot how fun car audio was till my son got his first car and found my stash.....
current system:
Clarion 807
(2) Phoenix Gold Elite .5
Focal 165 AS3
focal 130 AS
(4) Kicker L7 10"
Bit one

Soon to come
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keith2728
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Re: Elite amplifier gain setting

Post by keith2728 »

PG tech support is not blowing me away. I'm asking pretty basic questions, but they aren't understanding...
Old guy who forgot how fun car audio was till my son got his first car and found my stash.....
current system:
Clarion 807
(2) Phoenix Gold Elite .5
Focal 165 AS3
focal 130 AS
(4) Kicker L7 10"
Bit one

Soon to come
8" midbass in kick pannels
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
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Re: Elite amplifier gain setting

Post by ttocs »

the instructions seem simple enough to me. Get the voltage listed on the meter with out the speaker and then hook it up and play it. Why this is better then starting with the amp gain at 0, deck at 3/4 and then adjust the gain till it starts to sound bad, then turn it back down till it still sounds good , People have been doing this for decades....
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
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knightrider358
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Re: Elite amplifier gain setting

Post by knightrider358 »

im w ttocs.....seems pretty simple to me

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keith2728
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Re: Elite amplifier gain setting

Post by keith2728 »

I would normally agree to set gain by ear. in this case I'm using 2 Elite .5's each sub channel will power 2 subs so it's important there at the same level....
Old guy who forgot how fun car audio was till my son got his first car and found my stash.....
current system:
Clarion 807
(2) Phoenix Gold Elite .5
Focal 165 AS3
focal 130 AS
(4) Kicker L7 10"
Bit one

Soon to come
8" midbass in kick pannels
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keith2728
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:03 am

Re: Elite amplifier gain setting

Post by keith2728 »

Got the correct response from PG. "I spoke to the product develop guy and he agrees that you would need a load on the output for a true reading as stated in the instructions."
Old guy who forgot how fun car audio was till my son got his first car and found my stash.....
current system:
Clarion 807
(2) Phoenix Gold Elite .5
Focal 165 AS3
focal 130 AS
(4) Kicker L7 10"
Bit one

Soon to come
8" midbass in kick pannels
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keith2728
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:03 am

Re: Elite amplifier gain setting

Post by keith2728 »

keith2728 wrote:Got the correct response from PG. "I spoke to the product develop guy and he agrees that you would need a load on the output for a true reading as stated in the instructions."
just to be clear, there is no mention of a load in the literature.
Old guy who forgot how fun car audio was till my son got his first car and found my stash.....
current system:
Clarion 807
(2) Phoenix Gold Elite .5
Focal 165 AS3
focal 130 AS
(4) Kicker L7 10"
Bit one

Soon to come
8" midbass in kick pannels
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Eric D
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Re: Elite amplifier gain setting

Post by Eric D »

You would want to set the gain with no load. If you connect your speakers to the amp at full power with a sine wave, you will either blow the speakers, or the amp, or the voltage would drop on the input so great, you would not get an accurate reading anyway.
Got "schooled" by member shawn k on May 10th, 2011...
No longer really "in tune" with the audio industry, and probably have not been for some time.
Hands down the forum's most ignorant member...
Don't even know what Ohm's law is...
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keith2728
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Re: Elite amplifier gain setting

Post by keith2728 »

I disagree and so does PG. Without a load there is no way you would get an accurate reading. I will most look for power resistors the proper impedance to set gains.
Old guy who forgot how fun car audio was till my son got his first car and found my stash.....
current system:
Clarion 807
(2) Phoenix Gold Elite .5
Focal 165 AS3
focal 130 AS
(4) Kicker L7 10"
Bit one

Soon to come
8" midbass in kick pannels
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
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Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Re: Elite amplifier gain setting

Post by ttocs »

where does pg say they need to be loaded?
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
ttocs
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Re: Elite amplifier gain setting

Post by ttocs »

also if you want to test by ear if you have them set up for the same sound just adjust the gain on one to where you like it, then wire the 2nd speaker out of phase and then adjust the gain until both woofers are moving like crazy, but VERY little sound is coming out. IF you do this for every inch one speaker goes up, the other will go down and cancel each other out. Now just flip the polarity of the speaker and your subs are matched.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
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Eric D
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Re: Elite amplifier gain setting

Post by Eric D »

keith2728 wrote:I disagree and so does PG. Without a load there is no way you would get an accurate reading. I will most look for power resistors the proper impedance to set gains.
So in a round about way what you are saying is that anyone who purchases an Elite amplifier needs to also purchase load resistors so they can set the gains on it?

Now that is an industry first!

Because PG designed the amplifier, and should have had the means to lab test it, they can create that NO LOAD voltage chart based on WITH LOAD lab testing. Nearly any amplifier on the market will drop its output voltage by some amount when loaded. PG would know this amount, and create the chart based on it.

You won't get an accurate reading using load resistors either. They don't have the same reactance as a coil in a magnetic field in a loudspeaker does. Some amplifier designs can handle this and have flat output in response too it. Most designs cannot.

If you wish to set your amp with it loaded, be my guest. Please report back with your findings.

For anyone else who ever reads this thread, and this post, please do not leave your speakers connected when you play a full voltage output sine wave though the amplifier. You would be inviting disaster in doing so.
Got "schooled" by member shawn k on May 10th, 2011...
No longer really "in tune" with the audio industry, and probably have not been for some time.
Hands down the forum's most ignorant member...
Don't even know what Ohm's law is...
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dwnrodeo
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Re: Elite amplifier gain setting

Post by dwnrodeo »

Eric is correct. Your assumption is that a speaker behaves like a resistor and has a flat resistance when the amplifier provides an A/C signal to it. The reality is the speaker's impedance (NOT resistance!) changes based on the frequency of the signal it is receiving. A 4 ohm speaker is not 4 ohms along the entire frequency spectrum it was meant to reproduce. Check any loudspeakers DC resistance with an ohmmeter and you will see it will not be exactly what is published by the manufacturer. You can read more about that here: http://www.bcae1.com/resvsimp.htm
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keith2728
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Re: Elite amplifier gain setting

Post by keith2728 »

This is the exact email I got from PG.

We know a speaker changes impedance depending on frequency produced, but by using the same load, speaker or resister, and same test frequencies you will get the most accurate reading. Remember, I'm only trying to figure this out because I'm trying to power my subs with two separate amps. want them to match as close as possible.
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Old guy who forgot how fun car audio was till my son got his first car and found my stash.....
current system:
Clarion 807
(2) Phoenix Gold Elite .5
Focal 165 AS3
focal 130 AS
(4) Kicker L7 10"
Bit one

Soon to come
8" midbass in kick pannels
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Eric D
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Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:50 am

Re: Elite amplifier gain setting

Post by Eric D »

All people are capable of mistakes, and either that email is a mistake, or at the very least a misunderstanding.

If you wish to precisely match your gains you can do so with a load if you do it (AT REDUCED POWER).

For example, say the PG chart says you need 20V of output. Go ahead and remove the speaker connections, and then play the 50Hz tone at 3/4 volume (or where ever your head unit clips) and set the AC voltage to 20V RMS with your DMM.

Now turn the volume all the way down and turn off the system. Hook the speakers back up. Turn the system on and play the same 50Hz tone. Turn up the volume until you get a few volts of output on the DMM and your speakers are moving a comfortable amount. Measure both amps, and turn the one which has more voltage on it down, so it matches the voltage of the other lower amp.

Now you are done.

If you set the gains with the subs connected and play that 20V signal (assuming that is your target), I can almost 100% assure you, you will overheat and fry the voice coils in your subs. There is a reason SPL competitors only "burp" their systems for the mic. If they just left them on for an extended period (some can go seconds, some minutes), equipment starts to fail.

This is especially critical for midranges and tweeters. If you buy a nice set of 100W midranges, and play 100W sine waves into them, they would most likely fail as well. The power ratings on speakers and subs are generally under the understanding that music will be the signal, not sine waves.
Got "schooled" by member shawn k on May 10th, 2011...
No longer really "in tune" with the audio industry, and probably have not been for some time.
Hands down the forum's most ignorant member...
Don't even know what Ohm's law is...
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
Posts: 14783
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Re: Elite amplifier gain setting

Post by ttocs »

Could have had it all tuned by ear long ago by now. Again people been doing it for decades even with on amp/sub and you better off learning how to tune by ear anyway.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
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