DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Need help with your car stereo system? Have a technical question? Post here.
User avatar
Jacampb2
Mad Scientist
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Beaverton 48612

DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by Jacampb2 »

I just thought I would share a little project with those of you who like to do repairs. Over the last few months I've been working to reverse engineer and diagram a DLogixs "class x" board, the DLM4500. Board I am working with is a revision 3, but it looks like all the revisions are pin for pin compatible with the exception of rail voltage.

Anyhow, I finally finished ringing out the board and diagramming it, then did all the cad to layout and route the board. Schematics are attached in pdf format. I sent the boards off to a board house to be fabbed and I ordered quite a few of them. So if anyone needs replacements, let me know.

As far as I know these have never been used in pg amps but they are in quite a few of the higher end larger class d amps from circa 2000-2010. The manufacture has long since quit supporting these, so I'm an hoping to fill a gap for people in the repair community.

Clicky
Last edited by Jacampb2 on Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
M: M100, M44 for a custom amp project
Zx: Zx500, Zx450, Black Zx350
ZxTi: 4 Zx600Ti's, 1 Zx400Ti
Ti: 5 800.1's & 900.7 for a custom amp project. 1 1200.1, 1 1000.2
Tantrum: 2 1200.1's, 1 600.4, 1 500.2
XS: XS6600
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
Posts: 14783
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by ttocs »

what is it?
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
User avatar
Jacampb2
Mad Scientist
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Beaverton 48612

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by Jacampb2 »

Oh yeah, here are the renders of the board, I'll post a few pics of the original too to show what it is.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
M: M100, M44 for a custom amp project
Zx: Zx500, Zx450, Black Zx350
ZxTi: 4 Zx600Ti's, 1 Zx400Ti
Ti: 5 800.1's & 900.7 for a custom amp project. 1 1200.1, 1 1000.2
Tantrum: 2 1200.1's, 1 600.4, 1 500.2
XS: XS6600
User avatar
Jacampb2
Mad Scientist
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Beaverton 48612

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by Jacampb2 »

ttocs wrote:what is it?
It's a class d driver board found in a lot of older large class d amps

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
M: M100, M44 for a custom amp project
Zx: Zx500, Zx450, Black Zx350
ZxTi: 4 Zx600Ti's, 1 Zx400Ti
Ti: 5 800.1's & 900.7 for a custom amp project. 1 1200.1, 1 1000.2
Tantrum: 2 1200.1's, 1 600.4, 1 500.2
XS: XS6600
User avatar
Jacampb2
Mad Scientist
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Beaverton 48612

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by Jacampb2 »

Here is the original board, I have a picture of one assembled somewhere, but I'll have to dig it up if you want to see it.

Image

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
M: M100, M44 for a custom amp project
Zx: Zx500, Zx450, Black Zx350
ZxTi: 4 Zx600Ti's, 1 Zx400Ti
Ti: 5 800.1's & 900.7 for a custom amp project. 1 1200.1, 1 1000.2
Tantrum: 2 1200.1's, 1 600.4, 1 500.2
XS: XS6600
User avatar
Jacampb2
Mad Scientist
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Beaverton 48612

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by Jacampb2 »

Here you go Scott. This is a picture of the board on one of my Autotek amps and the other picture is a better shot of a populated board but with no daughter board on it...

Image

Image

Later,
Jason

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
M: M100, M44 for a custom amp project
Zx: Zx500, Zx450, Black Zx350
ZxTi: 4 Zx600Ti's, 1 Zx400Ti
Ti: 5 800.1's & 900.7 for a custom amp project. 1 1200.1, 1 1000.2
Tantrum: 2 1200.1's, 1 600.4, 1 500.2
XS: XS6600
trickyricky
Posts: 1653
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:01 am

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by trickyricky »

You're the man!!! Nicely done.
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
Posts: 14783
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by ttocs »

is this piece an improvement over what is already in our amps like a burr-brown upgrade or what does it buy me?
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
User avatar
Jacampb2
Mad Scientist
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Beaverton 48612

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by Jacampb2 »

No, it is simply the "brains" of some Class D amps. It is responsible for the analog to digital conversion and driving the output fets on some class D amps. Think of it like the Tripath module in the Tantrum 1200.1's, except this one was a a bit more accessible to reverse engineer. Dlogix, the company responsible for the for the design used two "mystery ICs" on this version of the driver. Someone much smarter than I, (Perry Babbin) figured out what the mystery chips were. They are an off the shelf op-amp and high speed compartaor. Pretty common fodder for a Class D design really, but Dlogix had the ICs house labled and for a long time people have binned these amps that use this driver because Dlogix will not sell the parts and the whole module is long since unavailable. Starting with I think Dlogix revision 4 or 5 of this board, they really did go to a custom chip on the small daughter board. The newer versions contain a SOIC28 chip that as far as I can tell is made exclusively for their company. The chip contains both a high speed comarator and op-amp. I am not sure yet, as I don't own anything with the newer design, but I am hoping that my daughter board will be able to replace those with the custom chip too...

Probably about 8 years ago Dlogix revised their driver again. It is similar to the old DLM4500 but it is much more robust. It is not pin compatible or even form factor compatible with the old drivers. Dlogix has for all intents and purposes abandoned the old 4500 drivers. This means there are many, many amps that have been condemned as un-repairable. My hope is that this will will that gap, but at the very least I have some amps that need it, so I will put it to use regardless of if others find a use for it.

Anyhow, it is one of those things that you will know when you need it, and now I hope I've given people a place to find it. I started this journey with a Autotek amp that someone had pulled the driver from. I had written the amp off as a lost cause, but then I got the MX5000 I had a thread on a while back and it also uses these drivers. This gave me a place to start on reverse engineering it. I spent most of my free time for almost a month going through this board and marking out signal paths on 11x17 scans of the boards. It took me 5 revisions to the schematic to find and fix what I think were all of my errors. Then it took me the better part of a week to route the board. This is a damned small piece of an entire amp too. The work gives you just a little more respect for those engineers who can sketch the entire amp out on a sheet of graph paper and nail it right off the bat.

Later,
Jason
M: M100, M44 for a custom amp project
Zx: Zx500, Zx450, Black Zx350
ZxTi: 4 Zx600Ti's, 1 Zx400Ti
Ti: 5 800.1's & 900.7 for a custom amp project. 1 1200.1, 1 1000.2
Tantrum: 2 1200.1's, 1 600.4, 1 500.2
XS: XS6600
trickyricky
Posts: 1653
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:01 am

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by trickyricky »

Don't you just hate when they remove the component numbers from IC's....glad someone (Perry Babin) figured it out. Thanks for the hard work and dedication you put into this.
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
Posts: 14783
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by ttocs »

nice work on the package. I know you didn't design it but its still some work to go from one in the hand to building one
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
User avatar
Jacampb2
Mad Scientist
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Beaverton 48612

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by Jacampb2 »

Thanks guys, keep it around, it might come in handy someday. Don't miss the schematics in PDF format via link in the first post. I host almost all of my own stuff and have no intention of losing my domain, so it should be there indefinitely. From what I hear through the rumor mill, one guy already did all this work on a much later revision of this board, but he doesn't share his files. Maybe afraid of issues with the manufacturer, IDK. Just having a schematic for these will for sure be of use to myself, so I guess I did it for selfish reasons :) Boards are supposed to arrive by Feb 3rd, so if any of you all runs across a need, lmk.

Meanwhile I am looking for some blown amps that used some revision of this driver. I am hoping to get a hold of some and test in various amps whether it is compatible and also see if I can use it in place of the newer revision with the custom 28 pin IC. If you run across any of the following, LMK, I am definitely interested.

Performance Teknique "ICBM Giant" and probably some of their smaller old class D's
Visonik V4000XD
MA Audio HK4000
Emphaser EA 2500D
Autotek MX5000 (I have a MX5000 and MX1500, but driver revision varied through its production run)
Autotek MX3000
Autotek MX1500
M: M100, M44 for a custom amp project
Zx: Zx500, Zx450, Black Zx350
ZxTi: 4 Zx600Ti's, 1 Zx400Ti
Ti: 5 800.1's & 900.7 for a custom amp project. 1 1200.1, 1 1000.2
Tantrum: 2 1200.1's, 1 600.4, 1 500.2
XS: XS6600
trickyricky
Posts: 1653
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:01 am

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by trickyricky »

I have a Hertz HP4 that I couldn't figure out what was wrong with it...I didn't remove or attempt repair just diagnose but was a PITA because it uses a programmable IC and had zero luck with Hertz trying to get one. Output wave form is pretty messed up but both (negative and positive are there), I don't think I paid much for it but doubt you'd want to take a shot at it, thought I might ask just in case you did.

Don't have any that use that module, no class D for me lol.
User avatar
Jacampb2
Mad Scientist
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Beaverton 48612

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by Jacampb2 »

I'll try to google some info about it tonight or tomorrow and I'll let you know.

I hate when the manufacturers use some kind of micro. I have 4 Tarantulas and they run the power supply via a PIC micro, I had two with bad PICs. The PICs are read locked, SoundStream has changed hands nearly as much as PG and the owner at the time had no documents about the amp but they had 3 already programmed PICs left on the parts shelve and I bought them all!

I did have some success with bypassing the PIC controlled stuff on the DEI manufactured Orion amp I worked on at the tail end of summer, but that was just PIC for antitheft, lighting control and control of a digipot so it wasn't that critical to abort it altogether.

I wish that manufacturers made their code public domain after they quit supporting something. It is sad that it creates forced obsolescence in an otherwise decent product.

I'm with you on class D for the most part, and that's why I have a pretty big selection of 1Kw + AB monoblocks, but I bought a blown Autotek MX3000 years ago now on a whim. I fixed that amp and it was bullet proof and it absolutely pounded. The efficiency is the ticket. If I were building something strictly SQ, then I wouldn't use anything Class D either. For brute force and moderate current draw, they are hard to beat.

Thanks,
Jason
M: M100, M44 for a custom amp project
Zx: Zx500, Zx450, Black Zx350
ZxTi: 4 Zx600Ti's, 1 Zx400Ti
Ti: 5 800.1's & 900.7 for a custom amp project. 1 1200.1, 1 1000.2
Tantrum: 2 1200.1's, 1 600.4, 1 500.2
XS: XS6600
User avatar
Jacampb2
Mad Scientist
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Beaverton 48612

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by Jacampb2 »

And they are here! YAY!

A few things almost bit me. The pin header holes for the small daughterboard are almost to small. Like, frustratingly close, but can still get it in :) and I did the same thing for the poly caps. I did the drawings for both of these parts, as well as many others. I used the datasheet sizing, and I must have put in the exact pin size instead of going a bit over. They both fit, but just barely. I am glad they don't have to be scrapped, but time will tell if I made any other mistakes. I am halfway through populating one of them. Have the back side done except for two resistors. They are supposed to be 22R and somehow I managed to buy 2R2... Hopefully nothing else bites me and they work as planned. I have 20 main boards and 30 daughterboards.

Pics for proof :D :

Image

Image

Later,
Jason
M: M100, M44 for a custom amp project
Zx: Zx500, Zx450, Black Zx350
ZxTi: 4 Zx600Ti's, 1 Zx400Ti
Ti: 5 800.1's & 900.7 for a custom amp project. 1 1200.1, 1 1000.2
Tantrum: 2 1200.1's, 1 600.4, 1 500.2
XS: XS6600
User avatar
Jacampb2
Mad Scientist
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Beaverton 48612

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by Jacampb2 »

Got one done today. Not 100% sure if it works or not. I put it in an amp that had many other issues and although all the signals look good the amp still doesn't work. I'm going to put it in a known good amp when I get a minute.

Image

Image

More to come later!
Jason
M: M100, M44 for a custom amp project
Zx: Zx500, Zx450, Black Zx350
ZxTi: 4 Zx600Ti's, 1 Zx400Ti
Ti: 5 800.1's & 900.7 for a custom amp project. 1 1200.1, 1 1000.2
Tantrum: 2 1200.1's, 1 600.4, 1 500.2
XS: XS6600
trickyricky
Posts: 1653
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:01 am

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by trickyricky »

FINGERS CROSSED!! Nicely done!
User avatar
Jacampb2
Mad Scientist
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Beaverton 48612

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by Jacampb2 »

Well, the initial test was a bust. I was hoping that the Autotek MX1500 was the issue (it was a absolute basket case when I got it), but I pulled a driver out of my Autotek MX5000 and put it into the 1500 and the 1500 works with no issue. So, my cloned driver is the culprit.

I spent the day yesterday working with it and I am happy to say I got it all up and working. It turned out that my driver was oscillating at 12.5kHz, not ~100kHz that it was supposed to oscillate at. It turned out that cap in the RC network that generates the square wave that integrates into the triangle wave was incorrect. I am using my DMM to measure caps as that is the only meter I have that supposedly has the range to measure these small value caps. Turns out it is not very accurate. I ended up with a value of about 33pF for C2 and 111pF for C1. I am still not convinced these are exact matches. Tonight I am doing some research to find a good capacitance meter.

I am very happy that those are the only issues I have found. Other than the caps I think the board layout turned out perfect.

Next on my list is reverse engineering the class D driver boards that are in probably 90% of the asian class D amps out there. The drivers that have two 10 pin RA connectors and Q124/125 that like to burn holes in the board. I am thinking that these will be nice to have the ability to just pop a new board in. The aforementioned Q124/125 sometimes burn the board bad enough to have it become conductive making repairs take a more creative approach. I think there is a need for replacement drivers.

Thanks for the support guys!

Later,
Jason
M: M100, M44 for a custom amp project
Zx: Zx500, Zx450, Black Zx350
ZxTi: 4 Zx600Ti's, 1 Zx400Ti
Ti: 5 800.1's & 900.7 for a custom amp project. 1 1200.1, 1 1000.2
Tantrum: 2 1200.1's, 1 600.4, 1 500.2
XS: XS6600
trickyricky
Posts: 1653
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:01 am

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by trickyricky »

I like my BK 879B LCR meter, paid under 200.00 for it a while back brand new. Might be cheaper now or a better model for same price. You can select the fhz 100,120,1k and 10khz and other great features for testing capacitors.
User avatar
Jacampb2
Mad Scientist
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Beaverton 48612

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by Jacampb2 »

I was just looking at that same model. I can't find anything that plainly states it's low end to its capacitance range. Do you know how low it will go? The manual seems to show 40pF as the low end.
M: M100, M44 for a custom amp project
Zx: Zx500, Zx450, Black Zx350
ZxTi: 4 Zx600Ti's, 1 Zx400Ti
Ti: 5 800.1's & 900.7 for a custom amp project. 1 1200.1, 1 1000.2
Tantrum: 2 1200.1's, 1 600.4, 1 500.2
XS: XS6600
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
Posts: 14783
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by ttocs »

if your needing a good meter, check your local pawn shop. I was looking at a nice fluke meter that looked brand new there. It was not their most advanced model but found it for $400 on ebay, they wanted $125 and of course ya know they will take less.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
trickyricky
Posts: 1653
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:01 am

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by trickyricky »

I haven't tested any capacitor that low but manual states at 10khz it has 40pf range so I wouldn't be surprised if it does read below that. Am pretty happy with it, has nice features such as D (Dissipation factor), Q (Quality
factor), θ (Phase angle), and ESR (Equivalent series resistance).

I've never had any luck with my local pawn shops they usually have crappy low end meters that you can find at walmart yet alone a decent LCR meter but it sure doesn't hurt to hunt for one there.
User avatar
Jacampb2
Mad Scientist
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Beaverton 48612

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by Jacampb2 »

Scott, a Fluke DMM won't go down into this range. This is specialty test gear territory, not a bad idea to check pawn shops, but they are kind of rare instruments to find in the used/surplus market. In worse news, I live in the middle of nowhere and the closest pawn shop is probably 80 miles away. Unfortunately my time is worth more than that, especially when I can get a new BK precision meter for $200-- but thank you for the advise.

Rick, I know this is a lot to ask, but if you happen to have a low value cap would you be willing to see? I might wait until their new 880 model comes out. I am not sure what they are doing with model numbers, but the 880 has a 4pF range and lot of other great features. Only problem is I can only find marketing material on it, I have yet to find one for sale...

Thanks,
Jason
M: M100, M44 for a custom amp project
Zx: Zx500, Zx450, Black Zx350
ZxTi: 4 Zx600Ti's, 1 Zx400Ti
Ti: 5 800.1's & 900.7 for a custom amp project. 1 1200.1, 1 1000.2
Tantrum: 2 1200.1's, 1 600.4, 1 500.2
XS: XS6600
trickyricky
Posts: 1653
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:01 am

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by trickyricky »

Now that you've asked I remember recently testing 25pf ceramic capacitors, yes it does read that low.
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
Posts: 14783
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Re: DLogixs DLM4500 (not PG related)

Post by ttocs »

fluke isn't test gear quality?
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
Post Reply