Hey guys! Been a while! Need help- x200.4 went poof

dragonplayboy · Post by **dragonplayboy** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:09 am

OK so I put a system together for my dad's Town Car -

Eclipse nav head unit
PG Xenon 200.4 Amp
PG RSD 6.5 Components on front channels
PG RSD 12 on bridged rear

I ran a single 4ga cable for both power and ground, solid ground, shortest lengths of each wire possible, used raammat in the doors, pulled the seats and carpet to run wires, etc etc. We didn't cut any corners...

Anyway it sounded great! Very loud and clear for the price, and I was able to play with the gain & x-over until I got the sub to blend well. gain was probably set around 1/2 to 2/3 at most for the sub, and maybe a quarter of the way for the front stage. He sends me this email this weekend that he turned up some eric clapton or something to show it off to his buddy and it fried the amp, made the whole car & trunk smell like burnt ass hair. We are both engineers and have both worked with a good bit of audio gear over the past 10-15 years (mostly PG mind you) and I really thought PG stuff was bulletproof! What the hell did he do? It worked rock solid for a month or two and then boom!

He lives 4 hours away from me and I'm not visiting him anytime soon, any thoughts on what happened? what does PG charge for warranty work? I either got that amp from someone on here or on ebay, but I think it was on here. I got the amp 6-8 months ago though, I forget where it came from for sure.

Post by **AVICJR** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:30 am

Here's PG's flat rate fee charge for repair. Looks like the X200.4 is $125.

http://www.phoenixgold.com/2004/flatrate.html

Post by **stipud** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:31 am

Sounds like the usual early release Xenon QC failure...

They offer a flat rate repair of $125 if it's out of warranty.

1moreamp · Post by **1moreamp** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:56 am

You are a victim of trying to run a 4 channel amp with uneven power distribution. You and about 4 other people I know have tried to run woofers and separates at the same time and all 4 have had failures. ALL on 200.4's

I posted a bit a while back explaining how you can't balance the power in a 4 channel amp to each channel. So when running woofers on a couple of the channels those two channel usually blow because you can supply all 4 channels of power to any one while the amp is being pushed by excessive bassline information.
EASY did the same thing to his amp after I warned everybody here and on SB not to try this setup with a 4 channel amp.

Its not a version 1 issue, is a simple case that you put 4 channels of power through 2 channel of the amp and it blew. The bass channels blew the amp by being pushed harder then the rest with no internal way to limit the power to any one individual channel.

This is why I tell everybody NOT to run 4 channel amps like this. They all fail, and it has no brand preference as the failure they ALL blow when running this unbalanced load setup like this.

4 Channel amps were meant to run4 corners in you car not 2 corner and bassline. It blows ANY 4 channel amp ANYTIME. PG, Orion, Hifonics Brax, TRU, ANY brand will always fail the same way.

PG did not let you down, Not buying a separate bass amp let you down.

Sorry but I have seen this SO much over the years, thats its like a broken record as to what happened. NO 4 channel amp has the ability to current limit each individual channel with the correct maximum amount of power when the power supply can supply all 4 channels power to max output.

Your bass drive sent more power to two of the channels then the other two and one or more of those two channels folded under the strain, and then the power supply shot its guts in the trunk. Plain and simple...

A golden rule is that if you can afford a MSRP $800.00 amp for mids and tweets, then you should be able to afford a separate bass amp, and running what you have and trying to stretch a one amp setup at the 800 watt level is always a recipe for disaster.

I worked on JED's 4 channel Ti-500.4 amps, and the one he had run for a while had excessive DC output voltage on the two channels he was running bridged into a single woofer. Same story here to guys . JED is pushing those two channels way too hard and they will fail down the road.

The evidence is the way out of balanced DC offset at the output. DC offset tells the internal age of the electronics as well as a odometer tells you how old a car is.
And EVERY 4 channel amp being run like you and JED, and EASY have run has or is failing. Its just a matter of time, and in your case its was a very short time, just like it was for EASY. I have his amp in my shop now. One I bought off E-bay broken was run the same way, but a safety link in the 16 volt power supply went before the whole amp did in these cases.

YOU CAN'T RUN 4 CHANNEL AMPS BRIDGED INTO TWO OR THREE CHANNELS. The power supply was not designed to control this sort of setup. ANY amp made by ANY builder will be the same.

Sorry to see it happen to you none the less, but it was the setup, not the amp. I own three 200.4 and would not trade them for love or money, but I run mine in 4 channel mode only and they run my 4 corners only ... C

dedlyjedly · Post by **dedlyjedly** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:16 am

Say Wha.....! You did tell me that I was running the rear channels on my beast hard, but I never understood that it was actually due to the amp configuration. You left me feeling it was just my "heavy" hand and listening preferences!

I don't run most 4-channels in this configuration due to a limited supply to the sub, but I figured a "somewhat" responsible listener like myself could manage, even with a smaller amp. I have used the X200.4 several times for customers in this manner because of the big-time power and never suffered an incident (even with those known to abuse equipment).

Do you have a link to the post you're referring to? How would you explain 5,6,and 7 channel amplifiers with single power supplies that are designed by manufacturers for these very configurations?

1moreamp · Post by **1moreamp** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:34 am

The reason your Ti amp is still running is because of current limits that PG put in your amp. If bypassed those limits will not protect your amp as it has for the period you have seen thus far.

I have repaired SO many 4 channel amps run like this over the years that I will not warranty a amp run like this. You and 6 billion other people out their are running on the thoughts that its a safe setup and its is not. It is the MOST failure prone setup I have ever seen.

Alpine built some 5 channel amps a few years back the Alpine V-12 series inside all of these except one they run a separate bass power supply for the bass channels DUH ! I wonder why.. Maybe they know something. Many multi-channeled amps run a individual power supply for the bass channels so as to control the MAX power delivered to the load and NOT to use the 4 channels power to blow the bass channel.

Just a FYI guys C

dedlyjedly · Post by **dedlyjedly** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:51 am

My comments weren't made to somehow contradict your point Cecil, just to illustrate my surprise at hearing this. I don't remember any previous posts on this topic (although I could have easily missed them, especially this summer!) and I know that message didn't sink in after having our discussion about my amp. It may well have been my own special interpretation, but I feel sort of blindsided! Any links to the previous posts would be greatly appreciated.

It seems like many manufacturers even go so far as to suggest running some amps like this...and it blows me away that it could be the cause of a lot of unnecessary problems.

shaheen · Post by **shaheen** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:54 am

Hey C

This is the first time I heard of this, what you say seems correct, however I have installed a ton or more 4 channel amps in exactly the same way and never had a failure. Not saying it is not possible , but why would so many manufatureres actually recommend this type of set up .

when you say 4 corners , what about 2 woofers and a set of plaits, would that also count as 4 corners , I suppose not.

mmmmm, food for thought, thanks C

Post by **stipud** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:01 pm

While I could see that being a problem if he was running bass test tones or something that would shift all of the load to two of the channels... he was running Eric Clapton. Seems to me like this would put just as much power to the front stage, if not more, because Clapton isn't really bass heavy music.

theburb · Post by **theburb** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:02 pm

i have always ran 4 and 6 channel amps into the dirt and i have never had one fail on me yet...from old power300's to mc440m's i have never had so much as a hiccup from any install....i tell my firends that get them to just run them into the dirt without question....but then again i only stick with tried and true equipment.....not hype

1moreamp · Post by **1moreamp** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:29 pm

I know all of you have done this before. I call it a poor mans system. Everybody thinks its safe and it would be safe if the amp had power supply control settings to allow for proper power distribution within the amp to each channel.
JED's ti has current limits inside it but the DC offset says its working past its limits. Its just a matter of time.

Look I hate being the bearer of bad news, but what I am saying is true. Todays bass demands just drive multi-channeled amps way past their normal limits of power. Plus look at the load imbalance 2channels bridged can cause a 4 fold factor of power to be delivered as per the blackboard engineering math. Thats a huge demand through two channels and the single power supply can deliver all that to those 2 little channels.

Its just a matter of time, sorry but it happens and it happens a lot. And as far as all those amp company's saying its OK, well they make money by selling more amps, not by explaining the engineering behind a failure.

Take some time and think about this from a logical point of view, and ask yourself why did one or two channels bridged running bass blow out and them blow the power supply . What could cause this to happen? And then look at the simplicity of the power supply and the overall picture.

dedlyjedly · Post by **dedlyjedly** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:34 pm

Well, I'm glad I've discontinued running the amp in that manner then! Will the lasting effects of excessive DC output represent themselves sonically on those two channels when operating the amp in a 4 channel configuration?

shaheen · Post by **shaheen** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:39 pm

Ahhh, now I get where you comming from, yes todays music is more overlayed with heavy bass tones and yes pushing your system hard could and will result in this happening. the Same way a LSD works where the one wheel needs more power then the other, the diff sends the power to the wheel without the slip to drive it harder.

Not knocking the logic, it is correct and yes with todays type of music would happen, but the biggest problem amongst newer and inexperienced installers is also to turn the gains on the woofer channel up this will also in turn result in those to channels being forced to drain more from the power supply. Some 4 channels I have seen which will cope are

Lightning Audio Strike 600.4, it has a staggered power supply just for this reason
Concept 4 channel has Dual power supplies as well.

Sadly have nbot seen any PG amps with this feature. and none of the RF amps have anything close to it.

Post by **AVICJR** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:08 pm

The bigger 4 channel JL Slash amps have something like what you're saying. The rear channels put out more power then the fronts.

Post by **mr tibbs** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:36 pm

Well, in this case Cecil you can expect to see another x200.4 from me.

That is the exact setup I will be running in the girlfriends FJ. Comps on the front and a single 4 ohm sub bridged on the rear channels. Maybe I'll drop the x-over on the comps to 50 or so and try to make them play some low notes!

Damnit I hate to hear this!!!

1moreamp · Post by **1moreamp** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:38 pm

dedlyjedly wrote:Well, I'm glad I've discontinued running the amp in that manner then! Will the lasting effects of excessive DC output represent themselves sonically on those two channels when operating the amp in a 4 channel configuration?

Sorry Jed but yes, I still have your amp do you want me to fix the DC offset before I ship it ??? LMK You know I will take care of you my friend C

1moreamp · Post by **1moreamp** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:40 pm

AVICJR wrote:The bigger 4 channel JL Slash amps have something like what you're saying. The rear channels put out more power then the fronts.

Are you talking about the JL 450.5 , I think> I have seen those blow also.

They still have a single power supply for all channels

Post by **AVICJR** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:48 pm

Sounds to me that no matter how you look at it then, it's just safer to use another amp for sub duties.

450/4 is the one I was thinking of. Actually channels one and two put out the most power 300X1 while channels three and four are 150X1.

1moreamp · Post by **1moreamp** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:58 pm

mr tibbs wrote:Well, in this case Cecil you can expect to see another x200.4 from me. That is the exact setup I will be running in the girlfriends FJ. Comps on the front and a single 4 ohm sub bridged on the rear channels. Maybe I'll drop the x-over on the comps to 50 or so and try to make them play some low notes!

Damnit I hate to hear this!!!

Maybe not:

First I propose that you do not run a trunk bass install where the bass must pass thru the rear seats to be felt and heard.

Second: Do not run in a NEW woofer with the amp run the woofer thru its break in with something else, Then use the 200.4 to run the broke in woofer.

look new woofers are like bricks due to there tuff surrounds and spiders that are stiff as they are new and unused. This alone can cause a otherwise workable amp config to go south. New woofers take power to get broke in. maybe 40 to 60 hours later their efficiency is way higher than new.. Think about it, Stiff new woofer as opposed to broke in running losser woofer, its a no brainer that a NEW woofer can cause amp failure due to it power demand to play loud because of all of its elastomer's being STIFF and new.

Now if you correct all of that, then watch how much bass power you trying to get. remember those two channels see 2 ohms each while the rest of you amp see 4 ohm each, that plus the bridge config will most certainly try to push 4 times the amount of power thru those two bass channels. The Xenon will most certainly try to control the low ohm power, but this will reduce overall output only on the highs channels, and just barely maintain the bass channels.
NObody including PG offer separate channel power control in a multi-channel amp. This is why PG's dual mono amps did so well back in the day, The key being Dual Mono design. Each channel was almost a perfect mono amp. the amp stayed in control of itself, and did not have a power supply 4 times the channel size feeding it.

Again this is all a FYI guys , I am trying to get you to think about whats happening so you can save yourself. look I love fixing amps, but I wouldn't be worth a shit if I did not try to help you guys avoid calamity by explaining what i see as a weakness in config and design issues

Post by **mr tibbs** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:21 pm

Well, my 2 hopes here are that this is for the girlfriend's car and she won't crank it, and that the sub is a low power sub and hopefully won't be pulling that much extra power than the front channels. I will take your advice and break the sub in using a different amp though. Sounds like a good idea to me!

BTW, to the original poster, sorry for thread hijack. It seems to happen around here a little bit!

Post by **stipud** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:41 pm

Or you could break it in at lower volumes...

Post by **mr tibbs** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:19 pm

stipud wrote:Or you could break it in at lower volumes...

That sounds good on paper, but I know myself a little too good.

dedlyjedly · Post by **dedlyjedly** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:23 pm

Casey, fyi the optimal load for a bridged xenon multichannel amp is 8 ohms.
It's an xe.load thing, but this load will deliver max power with minimal current draw.

Post by **mr tibbs** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:27 pm

dedlyjedly wrote:Casey, fyi the optimal load for a bridged xenon multichannel amp is 8 ohms.
It's an xe.load thing, but this load will deliver max power with minimal current draw.

I get ya, but the sub is a svc 4 ohm. I think Cecil was saying that because I'm bridging the rear channels each channel will see 2 ohms. Correct me if I'm wrong (which is often the case).

Post by **stipud** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:28 pm

Better yet, run 4 ohm stereo! There's really nothing to gain by bridging a Xenon, besides maybe the ability to run a single SVC speaker...