Choice amplifier

[chaplin]

Allo,
Is it you find that the sound is identical enter the series M and MS? The MS and MPS is more adapted for the competition and M for the "beginner"...

Furthermore, what you would choose between the MS1000 and the Zapco C2K-4.0X for an installation SQ? Why?

Thanks!

[1moreamp]

I don't think anyone here has a Zapco amp in any of their installs. We all be kind of PG tuned here anyway if you know what I mean....

The Zapco line is still rather new compared to the MS line that has its roots back in the early 90's. In 15 years or so i would like to see if the zapco line is still what it is, and still has a loyal following like the MS PG line does. now that would be interesting to see.....C

[Me-262]

Allo,
Is it you find that the sound is identical enter the series M and MS? The MS and MPS is more adapted for the competition and M for the "beginner"...

I've owned both M and MS series amps, they don't "sound" any different. The MS is better built and more durable if anything. The M series is still an excellent amp, nothing wrong with them.

[chaplin]

Thanks!

I have already had amplifiers phoenix Gold in the years 1992-1995. I liked well, but I wondered if I again had to buy one M (MS, MPS) or Zapco, JL Audio, Brax(used) or Helix...

Does the series MS seem to take of the age vs the amplifiers of new generation (Phoenix Gold or the others of new generation)?

[1moreamp]

All the M, MS, MPS series amps sound alike cause they are exactly alike in the amps audio section design, with only the outputs being different in some models.
Even today up to the TI line the design was about the same inside the amp channels, with only the transistors being different to accommodate the changing supply of semi devices. Even the Xenons has triple D output but it used Sanken devices < I run one of these currently>
PG stuck with their guns and the Triple Darlington design for a whole lota years. I think it paid for them as they had a long run with a single design for a very good amplifier.
It always sounded good to me, and with the build quality I saw in them it was a win win for me as i saw it. I have not seen inside one single RSD amp yet, but one of these days I'm gonna snag one from e-bay to open it up and research it out....

The Zapco question is a fair one I just don't know anyone here thats got a Zapco in their stash or setup. I have one in my parts pile and its a four channel < shame someone thought it was a bass amp, thats how I get a lot of four channel amps, people think they are bass amps... C

[Mastiff]

did i hear helix?

[chaplin]

The Zapco question is a fair one I just don't know anyone here thats got a Zapco in their stash or setup. I have one in my parts pile and its a four channel < shame someone thought it was a bass amp, thats how I get a lot of four channel amps, people think they are bass amps... C

You believe that Zapco is not SQ? Mainly for the bass? Euh...

You prefer the MS or Zapco for the SQ? Are you capable of obtaining the series competition at good price?;)

[1moreamp]

The Zapco question is a fair one I just don't know anyone here thats got a Zapco in their stash or setup. I have one in my parts pile and its a four channel < shame someone thought it was a bass amp, thats how I get a lot of four channel amps, people think they are bass amps... C

You believe that Zapco is not SQ? Mainly for the bass? Euh...

You prefer the MS or Zapco for the SQ? Are you capable of obtaining the series competition at good price?;)

Oh I am a PG man all the way, sorry, I been owned by them since 1992.
Zapco is Ok, hugely overpriced even here just over the hill from them. I live about 60 miles from their Modesto home facility.
I have repaired dozens of their products over the years. people mostly abuse their products based on the very large spec's they promote in their literature.
SQ I would compare them to old school ZED products and the like since they use the same components inside. Some of their newer stuff uses upgraded components like MJL outputs by Motorola.

I am spoiled, I can have any amp I want because I repair them. I have stuck with the things I like and know work well over the years. Zapco is not a bad name, I just feel there are better out there. But this is just my personal opinion so please do as you please about your audio selection. And judge my statements on the fact I see inside all these amps, and that blurrs my point of view, perhaps....C

[chaplin]

According to you, what is the best series of Phoenix Gold?

I have another MS250, should I consider it in my installation either look at amplifiers younger?

I thought of trying an JL Audio because the evaluations seem very good and the price more interesting than Zapco and Brax... I have already used a Frank, on the other hand it is difficult to find in good condition...

Thanks!

[Me-262]

Don't bother with JL Audio. THey make a good amp but its totally overpriced and overrated.

[chaplin]

Then, you propose what? Several new Audio JL is unless $300... There is a certain peace of mind because they are new... If I can obtenirs at good price, you agree that it is about an excellent choice? You say too expensively too expensively with regard to what?

[1moreamp]

According to you, what is the best series of Phoenix Gold?

I have another MS250, should I consider it in my installation either look at amplifiers younger?

I thought of trying an JL Audio because the evaluations seem very good and the price more interesting than Zapco and Brax... I have already used a Frank, on the other hand it is difficult to find in good condition...

Thanks!

A Ms-250 is nothing to sneeze at, but new is nice as it will not need service before use, to get good life from it. 15 + years old is A pretty long life without service.
So sell your Ms-250 to one of us here on the forum

I fell for PG with the MS series and all of its spin-offs. The last amp I bought was the Xenon line < the 200.4> and I am happy with both of them < I own two, I sold the third >
In the middle I have three ZPA 0.5's with all the attachments and crossovers < 1 of these days they will get used again I hope soon >

So I can't say which I prefer as I like a whole bunch of their products over many years. I even like and own several XS series amps. ZX and Ti's were pretty good, and I own some of them also. I even own a M-100 thats going through a total rebuild one of these dazes, as time a space allows.

So which is best, well thats a tough one with all the selection I own. They all offer something to me, both from operational forte's and style to SQ and brute force power. I kind of guess it would depend on its use in the scheme of my install, and I have no shortage of them to chose from to try.

So, Any of the above will work for me

What can I say about the installers Dream amp, and best pick the JL slash amp series. It has a market share and installers love them. But most installers are looking for a easy install also and thats what JL offers IMO. Controls all on one side, fits under any seat, and SQ that most people can live with comfortably.
I have not heard there latest stuff which in gonna give the Alpine PDX line a run for its money, especially on the tech side it seems. If they suit your need then go for it.

JL has one thing most people don't understand, and that is the power they say they have is exactly that, no more, and no less. A 300 watt Jl amp has a 350 watt power supply with electronic power control that current senses and limits the amp to it max rated power of 300 watts.

So if you want 300 Jl watts thats the max JL power your gonna get out of that 300 watt amp 4 ohms or 1 ohm. it does not matter, so don't buy Jl thinking your gonna rock it beyond its rating, as this will not happen. Other than that i know several people that are very happy with them.

I just got told that Brax is no longer being sold or serviced in North America. Now I have no further proof of this except a local Brax owner is talking with me and i am helping him with some service related issues, although my shop is closed till the contractors get my bench area finished. I will be advising him on how to repair his own Brax amp locally.
So unless you hear otherwise Brax is a European product now by the grape vine I have here locally, shame they seem to make OK amps....

And Zapco, even local to me cost way too much money to justify the cost to performance ratio. But they seem to have the market convinced they are worth it. Good marketing I guess, what can I say.. For the money the bang is not big enough for me.....C

[chaplin]

You really believe that I should sell my MS250? If sheis not satisfactory for me then why she would be it for the others? She was not practically used... How much is sold this model at present?

[1moreamp]

You really believe that I should sell my MS250? If sheis not satisfactory for me then why she would be it for the others? She was not practically used... How much is sold this model at present?

I was just pulling your leg Plus if you wanted to sell the amp there are takers here I am sure Plus true collectors do just that, they collect, so most of the folks here would buy it even if they had no immediate need for it, Just because its Old School PG.

As I said up front the MS-250 is not a shabby amp. It doubles power at lower ohms and was built to do a awesome job.

Please check you caps, even with little use caps age and leak. Take a minute and slip some semi stiff paper under them. If the paper comes out stained or wet in anyway, you need new caps. New caps cost like $25.00 typically for all the big ones and your amp will last another 15 years probably. PG sure knew how to build them...

[chaplin]

I heard that I could replace cap by the other models... You advise me what?

[chaplin]

For the definition of the amplifier, I do not speak about power, but about quality of its ( SQ). If the sound is excellent and if she is comparable to the new amplifiers, then I am satisfied. I shall buy to myself then a MS2125 as well as a MS2250 to complete the installation unless somebody sells me a Frank;)

[1moreamp]

I heard that I could replace cap by the other models... You advise me what?

I am not sure what your asking, please re-phrase your question, and I will give you my best answer


As for SQ, I am prejudice I run only PG amps. Perhaps some of the others here could describe and explain the SQ of PG amps better than me
I am very happy with PG SQ, these after all were there top of the line debut Big splash amps back in the day...These amps made PG's name in the very beginning.

And there are upgrades Like Burr-Brown or Analogue Devices op-amps for higher SQ in the frontend, And then theres the Front end bypass that Doc Fosgate talks about....etc...

[chaplin]

Are there caps better than those of origin? Have you models to be proposed?

For the comparison of my MS, we can also compare her in quality with the other amplifiers of Phoenix Gold... The important for me it is the quality of sound and not the power...

My MS maybe to improve by adding Burr Brown or the others? It is a Dr. Fosgate the reference ... Or I can find this information?

[R-acer]

I am a huge fan of both PG and Zapco... I have bought a few PG amps recently including that very rare original MS1000 from Tristan, mostly to have in my collection, but in my install to be used everyday, Its going to be Zapco, 100% no question. 9.0 on subs and 4.0 for mid/highs, you cant beat Zapco.

[marko]

And there are upgrades Like Burr-Brown or Analogue Devices op-amps for higher SQ in the frontend, And then theres the Front end bypass that Doc Fosgate talks about....etc...

i still want to do this to my ms2125's as i think my system would benefit at the level it's at now, i would be very impressed if the sq improved over this modification!

[1moreamp]

Are there caps better than those of origin? Have you models to be proposed?

see this link: http://phoenixphorum.com/m50-and-m44-advice-vt4213.html

For the comparison of my MS, we can also compare her in quality with the other amplifiers of Phoenix Gold... The important for me it is the quality of sound and not the power...

All PG amps are of the similar electronic design. The circuit has changed very little over the years, so a early one is as a newer one

My MS maybe to improve by adding Burr Brown or the others? It is a Dr. Fosgate the reference ... Or I can find this information?

Doc Fosgate is EricD here on this forum he has a upgrade where you bypass the IC op-amp front end for MAX SQ on the MS and M series amps.
BB and AD upgrade chip s are also talked about, as it is a simple upgrade to perform on the older Ms/MPS/M series amps. There are no IC's in the ZPA line of amps, they are all discrete design with NO Integrated circuits for MAX SQ.

[1moreamp]

I am a huge fan of both PG and Zapco... you cant beat Zapco.

Huh ? what?

[marko]

does anybody know what pg did with the m25 section of the route66? as you can see this has no gain or bass control as it's done through the m44 section, you can just make out the twisted red/blue cables between amps but i'm not 100% what's going on!!

[1moreamp]

They completely removed the un-needed components since the front end work is done in the M-44 section. AKA front end bypass by removal

It saved money, and the amp performance was not compromised....The M-25 was meant to run off of the output of the M-44...

[marko]

could you simply cut those twisted cables and attach rca cables to have a "front end removed" amp? or is it a little more involved than that?