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 Post subject: Head-to-Head: M vs. Ti
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:55 pm 
Vin Diesel
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I recently got to play around with my M25 and ZX600.2ti.
I know Doc praises the M series, but I'm trying to prove him wrong :)

Equipment:
Eclipse AVN6600
PLD1
AC Four.1
Basscube
ADS 334is comps installed in the kicks BP @ 400hz - mid, HP @ 3200kHz - tweeters (i think)
Kicker RMB8 installed in the front doors LP @ 400hz
All filtering is done passively
0 awg power reduced to 8 awg (M25) and 4 awg (600ti)
No subs, amps ran full range

The M25 was installed in my car for about 2 weeks and the 600ti is currently installed at the moment.
Both amps gains and bass boost are fully counterclockwise
Four.1 and HU's EQ set to flat

Radio volume set at ~55/80

Music of choice - alternative, classic rock, 80's rock, pop and adult contemporary.
_____________________________________________

The first thing I noticed that the M25 plays louder :!: The bass notes are deeper, in fact I had to crank the bassboost on the 600ti to compensate for the lack of bass. You could feel the bass notes in your chest with the M25, whereas the 600ti sucks at it.

One weird thing is that for the M25, I had to flip the RCA's, b/c there was something wacky: the left and right was flipped for some reason (probably flipped internal speaker wires)

With the M25 I could crank the basscube all I want and the bass gets louder and louder and with no signs of cone break-up or physical distortion. As for the 600ti, cranking the basscube 2/3 increases bass, but it does not play low like the M25...not even close!
Keep in mind, I didn't touch the eq.

The vocals of the M25 sounded much fuller and thicker and seems to handle crappy sounding music. The 600ti on the other hand was a tad bit on the tinny side. Although, it did sound good, its no where near the M25. If I herd the 600ti w/o hearing the M25 first, I would have said it sounded pretty damn good.

On a positive note for the 600ti, is that it stayed cool, but the M25 seemed like it was going burn up :x and catch on fire after an hour or so.

Here's the most convincing comparison between the two amps: my GF asked me "what happened to your system?" after I installed the 600ti - unbiased opinion

It seems that the 600ti is better suited for making tons of power for subwoofer applications, since it powered my idmax very well at one point. There's no way in hell that the M25 can match up to the 600ti in terms of sheer output in mono or low impedances, but it does a hell of a job running my 3way comps.

It would be pretty hard to convince ANYONE that one amp makes 25w x 2 and the other makes 150w x 2.

So I guess Doc right. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Last edited by vin78 on Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:05 pm 
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Is one class A/B and the other class D?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:09 pm 
Vin Diesel
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Ti = A/B
M = A/B? A? not sure on the M but I'm sure neither one is class D


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:13 pm 
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Location: The land of morons, I mean mormons.:(
vin78 wrote:
Ti = A/B
M = A/B? A? not sure on the M but I'm sure neither one is class D


I'm pretty positive it's not pure class A, so I guess it is class A/B vs A/B. Hmm, maybe someday I'll give up the Xenons' and try the M series. Then again..... :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:36 pm 
Soy Milquetoast
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All I can say is my M44 and M100 in combination are fucking bliss.

At least to me :D

That said, Tom's Ti 500.4 setup also kicks a donkey in the balls.

I can't make a fair A/B comparison because our cars are too different of environments for audio to do that.



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:50 pm 
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At the time the M series amps came out, I don't think they classified them A/B or D. D class amps came out at a later date. The Ti monoblocks are all A/B class also.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:37 pm 
NOT justonemoreamp

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AVICJR wrote:
At the time the M series amps came out, I don't think they classified them A/B or D. D class amps came out at a later date. The Ti monoblocks are all A/B class also.



Back when the M series was first introduced there was one little lonely Class D amp on the market by a little company by the name of Infinity. I remember it well as it was the very first class D amp ever to make it to the public. It had 50 watts class D full range, and would do 200 + watts at 2 ohms mono or 1 ohm per channel, but it have a high end roll off when run that low of load because of its output filter design.

ALL early PG amps were class AB, Triple Darlington output stage designed linear amplifiers. Triple Darlington means that there are three stages of transistors interconnected to form a Triple Darlington configuration.

One of these days I will learn how to post pdf files and I will do a complete set of posts on the PG design. Especially since they no longer use it in any of there current amplifier product lines.
:)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:23 am 
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I have been surprised by M25's as well. The sub M25 pushes the Arc Audio 8 sub that I have almost as well as the rear channels of my TI500.4 (140 watts vs 250 watts) I do like the cooling fans, the Crossovers, and LPL features the TI has. I know the M100 and M44 have the crossovers & LPL, but I don't have room for those amps unless did a major overhual of my trunk floor. I don't have time for that right now (see my post above car audio install talking time)



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:28 am 

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Would you attribute some of the differences in performance between the M and the Ti amps due to power supply design changes? The Toshiba output devices are about the same between the M and Ti line, right? So the only other area would be power supply? Does the M line have a beefier power supply? They'll pretty much play 'til they burn up.


1moreamp wrote:
AVICJR wrote:
At the time the M series amps came out, I don't think they classified them A/B or D. D class amps came out at a later date. The Ti monoblocks are all A/B class also.



Back when the M series was first introduced there was one little lonely Class D amp on the market by a little company by the name of Infinity. I remember it well as it was the very first class D amp ever to make it to the public. It had 50 watts class D full range, and would do 200 + watts at 2 ohms mono or 1 ohm per channel, but it have a high end roll off when run that low of load because of its output filter design.

ALL early PG amps were class AB, Triple Darlington output stage designed linear amplifiers. Triple Darlington means that there are three stages of transistors interconnected to form a Triple Darlington configuration.

One of these days I will learn how to post pdf files and I will do a complete set of posts on the PG design. Especially since they no longer use it in any of there current amplifier product lines.
:)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:56 am 
NOT justonemoreamp

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lopezi wrote:
Would you attribute some of the differences in performance between the M and the Ti amps due to power supply design changes? The Toshiba output devices are about the same between the M and Ti line, right? So the only other area would be power supply? Does the M line have a beefier power supply? They'll pretty much play 'til they burn up.


1moreamp wrote:
AVICJR wrote:
At the time the M series amps came out, I don't think they classified them A/B or D. D class amps came out at a later date. The Ti monoblocks are all A/B class also.



Back when the M series was first introduced there was one little lonely Class D amp on the market by a little company by the name of Infinity. I remember it well as it was the very first class D amp ever to make it to the public. It had 50 watts class D full range, and would do 200 + watts at 2 ohms mono or 1 ohm per channel, but it have a high end roll off when run that low of load because of its output filter design.

ALL early PG amps were class AB, Triple Darlington output stage designed linear amplifiers. Triple Darlington means that there are three stages of transistors interconnected to form a Triple Darlington configuration.

One of these days I will learn how to post pdf files and I will do a complete set of posts on the PG design. Especially since they no longer use it in any of there current amplifier product lines.
:)



Does the M amp have a beefier power supply??? Well no not really in fact the Ti series has much better rated mosfets than the M series. In fact the MS series IMHO had beefier power supplies than the M series.

Look, In my mind I see the M series as a economical version of the MS amps < they were lower priced> and the seem to have smaller more regulated power supplies, BUT the audio circuitry seems to be exactly the same Minus the pretty LEDs that according to PG guys is just used for a measure voltage drop between the triple Darlington stages and stage before it.
I remember being told by the local rep that the "M series was for the NON-competition oriented PG consumer."
And for what its worth I really see little or no difference in the audio circuitry between these two amps.

Now the TI amps were a very similar circuitry with upgrade semiconductors, as Toshiba had stopped producing the outputs used in the Ms and M series amps. I have seen Motorola outputs in the ZX line and back to Toshiba/fairchild transistors in part of the ZX line and all of the Ti line.

Doc says the ZX line had more power this may be true as they overheated way more than the Ti line did. With power comes heat, simple physics here no magic.

With the ZPA's they had two versions, with the ZX amps they had two versions, with the Ti line the version thing was pretty much worked out by the ZPA and ZX lines.

With the MS, MPS, lines < Their Flagships I might add> They refined these in to the M series for the less raw power demanding PG owner.

All throughout PG's product lines they have always delivered real power, and they have always polished whatever they found out along the way. They appear to have really wanted to deliver a good to exceptional product every time. They just like any other company had to work through issues as they came to light. But for the most part they have managed to pull it all back together and maintain a loyal following.

If your looking for the beefiest power supplies please look for the power transformers that have the thin wires used on them. The thin wires have more surface area to carry more current. With more current comes more raw power to the amp. You will see these in the MS, MPS, and the ZPA lines and the Xenon line also. Some smaller M amps namely the M-25, M-50, and the M-44 all had small wires but on square H frame transformers, The M-100 had a regular toroid but it had big wire on it not small. All of the ZX, Ti amps had big wire on the toroids.
Also look for Toroid size in diameter. You can pretty much tell how much power amp has by the diameter and the material a toroid is made of.

All of my prized PG amps have small wire on there toroids. And that seems to correlate to the beefier power ratings they posted on them.

I hope this has been brief but in depth enough to actually be of help C :)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:38 am 
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Every time I get my hands on a PG amp, I test is maximum unclipped output voltage (with no load). I have been making a chart of these values, which will aid people in setting their gains.

Now, I have been called out in the past concerning flaws in my thinking. Some people feel you need to set your gains with the amp loaded, which will ensure you never reach any clipping with your system. This thinking is all fine and dandy, but it really throws a bunch of your hard earned money out the window.

Amp power supplies are designed with music in mind, not test tones. With a test tone playing on a loaded amp, all of the capacitance used in the amp is pretty much useless, as it never has a chance to recover. Also any excessive ability on the output section of the amp is also thrown away, since the power supply feeding it will likely be the limiting factor.

So, I stand by my idea of no load gain setting, as it gets you more power for your buck, with transients, which is just what music is. I am not a fan of gain overlap, especially with no load testing, as it is a guarantee you experience clipping.

Now, back to some of what this thread is about. The ZX amps have a higher output voltage than the Ti amps do. This is unclipped, with no load. With a load on there, this would translate to more output power, assuming the power supply and capacitance reserves can keep up with the input signals. For this reason, I prefer ZX amps over Ti amps.

As for an M25 competing against a Ti600.2, I don’t see that as a fair comparison. For one thing, the test performed should have the gains (at the listening level) matched so you are comparing the amp design more than the amp’s overall voltage gain differences.

At higher output levels, there is simply no way the M25 would keep up. It has only 2 power supply MOSFETs, compared to the Ti600.2’s 8. If the M25 did outperform the Ti on bass notes, I would guess there is some other problem with the installation which is starving the Ti600.2 for power. Just an example could be running a 4ga power line to the M25, then branching off with a 16ga line 2ft to the Ti600.2. This would cause a huge voltage drop which may allow the M25 to pull ahead, or even kill the Ti600.2 in time.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:05 pm 
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Doc-can you post or link us to your method of setting gains please?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:17 pm 
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I actually don’t know where to look at the moment. I think someone made a write-up about it here.

We just got a really pimp camcorder at work, maybe I can make a video of how I set gains.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:16 pm 
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Really pimp?
You kiss your Mother with that mouth? :shock:



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:39 pm 
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HoseHead wrote:
Really pimp?
You kiss your Mother with that mouth? :shock:




:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:30 am 
Vin Diesel
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If you guys notice, all I did was swap amps (I latter bass boosted the 600ti). Do both amps accept the same rca input voltage?

Perhaps the difference in output can lead to one sounding louder then the other? I didn't really think about that, I just thought all PG amps accept 8v max.
That might explain why I had to boost the 600ti...just a thought.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:17 am 

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vin78 wrote:
If you guys notice, all I did was swap amps (I latter bass boosted the 600ti). Do both amps accept the same rca input voltage?

Perhaps the difference in output can lead to one sounding louder then the other? I didn't really think about that, I just thought all PG amps accept 8v max.
That might explain why I had to boost the 600ti...just a thought.


How did you gain match the amps when you swapped each amp out?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:08 pm 
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The M25 has much more sensitive gains... to a max of 2 volts instead of the Ti's 8 volts. To do a true comparison you would have to gain match the two amps by way of multimeter and test tones.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:30 pm 
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One thing that has no been mentioned as of yet, the Ti line has a current limiting circuit in it where to my understanding the ZX and M do not. This circuit stops the amp from cooking itself.



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:19 pm 
VW337 wrote:
One thing that has no been mentioned as of yet, the Ti line has a current limiting circuit in it where to my understanding the ZX and M do not. This circuit stops the amp from cooking itself.


No shit ! I found that out the hard way.

I am now ZXless.... :lol: Hardly suprising after a 11 hour return drive from Maryland to Ohio with the system on all the way :D


  
 
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:38 am 
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VW337 wrote:
One thing that has no been mentioned as of yet, the Ti line has a current limiting circuit in it where to my understanding the ZX and M do not. This circuit stops the amp from cooking itself.


I always wondered why the Ti line was weaker. That has to be the difference, as in my personal experience/opinion the ZX line puts the Ti series to shame.



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:24 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:27 pm 
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I love my m44.. It is powering some rsd 6.5s, and that alone keeps up with my single 18 off 2500 watts...


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 Post subject: Re: Head-to-Head: M vs. Ti
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:38 am 
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Sorry I know this is super old and excuse my ignorance but i was reading this and was confused about the difference in the zx line and ti . Was the there a straight up titanium line aside from the zxti line or is that the same ? I have a few of the zx amps and zxti (like zx600ti)and thought they are the pretty much the same line just more power between the chasis, white verses titanium. Are the white ones better than the ones with a titanium schroud ? Im just confused :?



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