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 Post subject: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:11 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:18 am
Posts: 37
Hello forum tech's.

Years ago my beloved Outlaw gave up.
It will be a big repair job I know but there are members who have done this before. I need info on components I need to replace.

Things that are already on my list to replace are:
- psu caps
- IRFZ 48
- gate resistors: can someone give me the values for ordering the gate resistors for the M100 and M50 side please?
- the big black (burnt) diodes: info for ordering please
- there is one small blue component burnt next to the psu caps (I think it's a ceramic capacitor): need info for ordering please
- fuse holder: ordering info?
- are there other components to change to make the amps more reliable?

if possible can you give also the Mouser / Digikey code for ordering? That woud save a lot of time


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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:15 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:18 am
Posts: 37
Taking the bad parts out...


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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:37 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:18 am
Posts: 37
The gate resistors for the M100 part are 100 Ohm. Does anybody know how many watt these are?
Diodes are 1N5401 3A 100V.
The little blue ceramic capacitor, is this 0.47µf? How many volts?


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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:12 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:47 pm
Posts: 35
Location: The Netherlands
I think the gateresistors are 1/4 watt. I check for the other parts, I have a M100 for repair here. Did you did the pcb "transplant" with epoxy?



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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:10 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:18 am
Posts: 37
Hallo Bertje

yes I used clear epoxy (5min. Power epoxy from Pattex)
Thank you for checking the components.


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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:02 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:47 pm
Posts: 35
Location: The Netherlands
The capacitor is 470nF M5E Murata 50V see the pictures:
Image

Image

Image



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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:01 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:18 am
Posts: 37
Thank you Bertje for the clear pictures!!

If I change the IRFZ44 to IRFZ48 in the M100 en M50 section do I need to change the gate resistors to another value?
If so what are these for the M100 and M50 section?


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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:46 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:18 am
Posts: 37
Nobody?


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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:20 am 
Mad Scientist
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Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 pm
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Location: Beaverton 48612
The SG3525 is not buffered, it drives the PS fets directly. I think that you will likely have trouble driving the IRFZ48's. They have almost twice the gate capacitance of the IRFZ44. To me it looks like the IRFZ48 isn't that much of an upgrade, but if you are married to them, then I would give it a shot. You will know rather quickly if they are being fully enhanced. If it has trouble driving them, I'd probably drop to 50R gate resistor, or 33R, if neither of those work, you could build a buffer to drive the FETs, but space might get tight and it probably would not be pretty. The original gate resistors are 1/4w and flameproof. I would replace with the same.

I believe the fuse size is AGU, I have not searched, but I expect digikey or mouser will have the through hole holders.

Good Luck,
Jason



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M: M100, M44 for a custom amp project
Zx: Zx500, Zx450, Black Zx350
ZxTi: 4 Zx600Ti's, 1 Zx400Ti
Ti: 5 800.1's & 900.7 for a custom amp project. 1 1200.1, 1 1000.2
Tantrum: 2 1200.1's, 1 600.4, 1 500.2
XS: XS6600
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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:15 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:18 am
Posts: 37
Hello Jason

thank you for this information and time, it's just I had some irfz48 left from upgrading a ZPA.
I will order IRFZ44NLPBF can you confirm that these are ok?

thanks
Peter


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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:34 am 
Mad Scientist
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Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 1418
Location: Beaverton 48612
I try to stay away from any "N" suffix transistors unless I know for sure that the manufacturer used them in the original design. From what I understand, the "N" stands for "next generation" and there are some issues with them when used to replace the prior generation. They will probably be fine in the power supply, the place I typically see them have trouble is when someone has used the IRF540N or IRF640N in the audio output section thinking that it is an upgrade. From what I have gathered, this is a widespread problem and not just limited to audio amps. I am told that this is the reason that the new and old generation parts are still in production. Anyhow, as I said, it probably won't matter for the power supply where the transistors are essentially on or off and are not operating in their linear region. I still wouldn't risk it, and I have had enough bad experiences that I stock non "N" parts where possible and will just order "N" parts if an amp has to have them.

That said, mouser is out of the inexpensive Z44, digikey has them for a somewhat reasonable price-- https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=IRFZ44ZPBF.

Good luck,
Jason



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M: M100, M44 for a custom amp project
Zx: Zx500, Zx450, Black Zx350
ZxTi: 4 Zx600Ti's, 1 Zx400Ti
Ti: 5 800.1's & 900.7 for a custom amp project. 1 1200.1, 1 1000.2
Tantrum: 2 1200.1's, 1 600.4, 1 500.2
XS: XS6600
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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:18 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:18 am
Posts: 37
Jason,
thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise.
the irfz44zpbf 's are on the way. I think I have all the components now to continue this repair :P


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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:08 am 
Mad Scientist
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Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 1418
Location: Beaverton 48612
No problem! I am happy to see other people trying to keep these amps that many would write off as a "lost cause" up and running. Your patch board looks very well done. I assume you know, but your ground and power plane areas that need reconnected need quite a bit of copper to handle the potential current. I normally keep some of my used desoldering braid around just for these types of repairs. It is not the most aesthetic look when complete, but it will make the repair more mechanically strong and it will handle as much or more current then the original copper layer. Another better looking option would be to buy some thin copper shim stock from some place like McMaster Carr and cut some pieces to solder over/bridge the gap where the epoxy is.

Here is a pic of a badly blown 1000.2 that I had to replace the the section of PCB for one of the amps power supplies:

Image

Good luck! Let us know how it all comes out.

Later,
Jason



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M: M100, M44 for a custom amp project
Zx: Zx500, Zx450, Black Zx350
ZxTi: 4 Zx600Ti's, 1 Zx400Ti
Ti: 5 800.1's & 900.7 for a custom amp project. 1 1200.1, 1 1000.2
Tantrum: 2 1200.1's, 1 600.4, 1 500.2
XS: XS6600
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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:20 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:18 am
Posts: 37
Hello forum members.
Thanks Jason for the help and advice.

The repair takes allot of time but now there is some progress:

I used copper foil to bridge the gaps. The transfo is until now the most difficult part to put back on the pcb board. I used a clear overcoat pen to protect the damaged parts on the green and red wire. (not possible to see on the pictures). New via's are also used for all the components that I put back on the board.
I need one more part to finish this project and that is the RCA connector. I spend allot of time using the Mouser database but with no luck for a good replacement. If someone knows where to find a good replacement please let me know. Other suggestions on this repair to make it better are also very welcome. The rest of the project will follow.


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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:15 am 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm
Posts: 14338
I am pretty sure I have an extra rca connector I can spare but its from an ms based amp. Anyone know if these are compatible or Post a pic of what your look like and I can compare. Red/white?



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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:47 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:18 am
Posts: 37
Hi ttocs

this is the one. Or maybe there is a possibility to repair it?


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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:55 pm 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm
Posts: 14338
dang no those are nowhere near the same. The ms series they mount to the panel completely differently....



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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:27 am 
Mad Scientist
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Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 1418
Location: Beaverton 48612
I'll look when I get a free minute, see if I have any of those around. That was super common with PG RCAs and any of their female connectors. Their RCAs are so tight they almost always pulled the shields out. If you can find it, you can push it back in and it will be fine. you can probably pull the shield from about any RCA connector and use it...

Worst case scenario, use panel mount female RCA jacks and wire them to the board with a short piece of RCA cable.

Good luck,
Jason



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M: M100, M44 for a custom amp project
Zx: Zx500, Zx450, Black Zx350
ZxTi: 4 Zx600Ti's, 1 Zx400Ti
Ti: 5 800.1's & 900.7 for a custom amp project. 1 1200.1, 1 1000.2
Tantrum: 2 1200.1's, 1 600.4, 1 500.2
XS: XS6600
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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:25 pm 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm
Posts: 14338
The panel mount rcas are what I have. As he said they are different but would probably work but would need to be soldered in



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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:52 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:18 am
Posts: 37
all the parts on the M100 section are back on the PCB.
Couldn’t wait to power up the amp. First I used a 5A fast blowing fuse but just before the green LED came on it popped.
Than I used a 10A fuse and the green LED came to life. Just before the green LED light's up it draws almost 20A just to switch on. When the green LED is on it draws less than 2A. I did not have the time to connect audio signal that will be for next week if I have the time. One thing that bothers me is that the external rca output (the one that is broken) is shorted when I measure between the center pin (+) and the shield. When I measured the short cable that goes to the M50 section there is no short. I think that the problem is inside the broken rca connector. I do not have the piece that has broken off.


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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:23 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:18 am
Posts: 37
Finally find the time to finish this project.
This amp works like new. The M100 section is very powerful.
It took many hours and parts to finish but I'm glad that I saved this great amp.


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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:54 am 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm
Posts: 14338
nice job.



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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:44 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:18 am
Posts: 37
Thank you Sir but this is nothing compared to your MS1000 project…


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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:10 am 
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears

Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm
Posts: 14338
this job you did makes rebuilding the 1000 look like a cake walk. I am dying to get it finished but I am also THIS close to finally getting my mustang running and really want or need to concentrate on one thing at a time to ensure all the little details are good.



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 Post subject: Re: Outlaw repair need advise
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:11 pm 
Short Bus Driver
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Nice work. I am glad to see someone saving a great amp like this.



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