This Picture says it all .

[SLICK]

LOL

[Misfire]

Priceless!

[ttocs]

the look on the childs face as the parent exploits her for their own political gain really really bothers me

[waynehead]

Petty but effective

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

So the child is actually $37k in debt, huh? Still mad about buying the shit you couldn't afford, huh?

[waynehead]

yeah I feel kinda bad for Obama. he is getting the blame for something that has been going on for the last 8 years. Even if he was the best economic wizard on the planet it would take 4 years to see a strong trend towards the good. Im not crazy about being told I HAVE to buy health insurance tho.

[Eric D]

I don't feel bad for Obama. The problem started while Bush was in office, but fixing my health care won't to anything to help me get a job, and that has nothing to do with Bush.

And why is it so easy for everyone to forget the stock market was the highest ever while Bush was in office? I don't see how we can blame Bush directly for the failure of the economy. What exactly did he do to ruin it?

[ttocs]

Im not crazy about being told I HAVE to buy health insurance tho.

Things can change almost overnight and then you need it. 7-8 yrs ago I was in the best shape of my life. I was training for x-country mountain bike races and was riding 75 miles a week offroad, swimming a few miles a week as well as working out. I did that for 3 seasons before I suddenly developed a digestive problem that has taken over my life and forced me to declair disability. Because of these problems I end up hospitalized 2-4 times a year with an average of those bills being from 10-15k each.

I do not feel sorry for people that overspent on their house and paying that much for a dollhouse would mean she went way overboard. I ended up loosing my house becaues of the problems mentioned above and bought my house at the start of all that crap. They approved me for a loan that there was no way I could afford to pay for, so I ended up using less then half of what was approved to keep it resonable.

[joerg]

It was not a problem to spent billions on weapons the last few years! So why is it a problem to spent money on your own health now?

[dwnrodeo]

It doesn't matter how much the government spends, with the Federal Reserve you have an endless supply of money that can be printed at a whim! Why do you think Ben Bernanke (Chairman of the Federal Reserve) was Time's "Man of the Year"?

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

"The Federal Reserve is about as federal as Federal Express"

[waynehead]

I don't feel bad for Obama. The problem started while Bush was in office, but fixing my health care won't to anything to help me get a job, and that has nothing to do with Bush.

And why is it so easy for everyone to forget the stock market was the highest ever while Bush was in office? I don't see how we can blame Bush directly for the failure of the economy. What exactly did he do to ruin it?

I honestly feel, from what Ive learned in government classes, that the economy we saw was from what clinton did while he was in office, and im sure the war helped alittle too. War is always god for big business. I meen I am no government major but this is what ive taken from the courses i took.

[waynehead]

Yeah the federal reserve is dangerous, we shulda never left the gold standard. How the fuck are we just going to make money to spend it. As far as im concerned thats about as good as space cash because there isnt anything to back it up. What happened to trading goods and services that others need for something you need. I got some beads you got some bread.

I dont know what World War III will be fought with, but World War IV will be fought will sticks and stones. The Man- Albert Einstein

[Eric D]

If someone showed me some evidence the "national" health care system will be better than what we currently have, I will be 100% on board with it.

Now I don't know how the governments in the countries of the rest of you guys work, but here in the USA, ours has a solid track record of not getting it right. Everything is over budget, and nothing ever gets the results the government tells us it will. I just don't see how this government system will make anything better, or cheaper.

As for weapons, I wish the government would spend more on them. Right after 9/11, the economy of the USA took a big hit. Panic for safety moved into economic panic as well. If things continued as they were, I am convinced our economy would be worse off now than it is. What changed this was the wars in the middle east. Looking back at the history of the USA, every war has caused economic growth. WWII saved our nation from the great depression for example.

In my opinion this all directly affects me. Had we not went to war, the subsequent economic growth would not have happened, and the company I ended up getting a good job with would not have been hiring, or would have already gone out of business. During those good times I managed to buy a house and get married. Both greatly improved my life.

Now the number one thing holding me back in life is lack of a job. I can't even get a simple job. I have applied to jobs paying $9 an hour and they won't even give me an interview. Am I concerned about my health care? Yes. I have no health insurance at all, and a history of back problems (had surgery once), plus a wife who wants kids. But, if I got a job, I could deal with the health care myself. However, if I had the best health care in the world handed to me, I will still loose my house, and eventually my marriage.

[Eric D]

I don't feel bad for Obama. The problem started while Bush was in office, but fixing my health care won't to anything to help me get a job, and that has nothing to do with Bush.

And why is it so easy for everyone to forget the stock market was the highest ever while Bush was in office? I don't see how we can blame Bush directly for the failure of the economy. What exactly did he do to ruin it?

I honestly feel, from what Ive learned in government classes, that the economy we saw was from what clinton did while he was in office, and im sure the war helped alittle too. War is always god for big business. I meen I am no government major but this is what ive taken from the courses i took.

You have a point.

During Clinton's terms, our country was going crazy with growth. But can you give him all the credit? While he was in office we had a Republican majority in congress. Clinton could not get anything passed unless they were on board with it. You have to give them some measure of credit for this. Also, during that time was the rapid growth of the Internet. Now in all honesty, I have never done a whole lot or research into this area, but I am assuming the rest of the world grew rapidly during this time as well from the growth in the technology sector?

[Eric D]

Just for reference, I am in no way a John McCain fan. If I had my way, of the crappy choices we had, I would have wanted Hillary Clinton to end up president. She would have helped grow the economy instead of bury it.

[NewOldStock]

Actually... nationalized healthcare will create thousands of jobs.... thousands of auditors making sure the plan is being implemented correctly. How many new clinics and hospitals do you think are going to have to be built to support the 33million more people that have insurance and can go see a doctor now? how many more doctors, nurses, etc... are there going to need to be to support that many more people?

As for the stock market - uh... while riding the high of the 90's, Bush was elected with a skyrocketing stock market, then unless I am mistaken, the stock market crashed harder than any other time since the 1930's while on Bush's watch... I suppose we could blame that on Clinton, except that Bush was the one that deregulated the banks which allowed them to make the MASSIVE profits ... oh and allowed them to put the world economy into the shitter when they were too big to fail.

for those that think the US health care system didnt and still doesnt have a problem - from the wall-street journal (I will have to find the link):

68% of all bankruptcies are caused by medical expenses
of that 62%... 78% of them HAD INSURANCE

What I cant figure out is some of the stupid arguments I keep hearing against nationalized medicine.
* "death panels" - you mean "for profit insurance companies"? If you believe for a moment that there isnt some human being sitting at a desk trying to decide if it would cost the company LESS to let you die than to fix you, you need to be removed from the gene pool.
* "Canada's health care sucks" - you might be right, Thailands national health care system FAR SURPASSES even Canada, which by the way has 15% less death by maintainable disease (I.e. Diabetes)
* "Its going to cost us more money" - for christs sake, who do you think pays for the people that dont have insurance now? the hospitals just allow them to have operations and the doctors just do it out of the kindness of their hearts? At least now folks will HAVE to pay SOMETHING. even if its $1.00 per person, thats still 33million MORE dollars going into the system than before... you remember, when those people didnt pay ANYTHING and the hospital wrote those bills off on their taxes so WE could pick up the tab?

I have a few friends that are doctors, nurses and anesthesiologist... I was talking with them about this whole thing and its amazing. for my anesthesiologist friend, for an 8 hour operation the patient gets charged between 5k and 10k. He sees 1-3k of that money. ALL the rest goes to the insurance companies. He pays 175k/yr in ... INSURANCE (malpractice insurance). the numbers are similar for the doctors... they make 10% or so of what patients get charged and their malpractice insurance is more.

Personally, I would have liked to see them simply remove the state-specific restrictions on insurance companies instead of this overhaul. Make the insurance companies compete for customers, let the free market system do what it does best.... lower costs, balance services, etc... but since thats not going to happen this was what we got. we cant rely on individuals to do the right thing and we cant depend on corporations to do the right thing, but "we the people" will do the right thing. we will drop shitty/expensive insurance, force things to change by spending our money where it makes sense for US... companies WILL follow suit or they will go out of business... gotta love the free market system when its allowed to work.

[waynehead]

I don't feel bad for Obama. The problem started while Bush was in office, but fixing my health care won't to anything to help me get a job, and that has nothing to do with Bush.

And why is it so easy for everyone to forget the stock market was the highest ever while Bush was in office? I don't see how we can blame Bush directly for the failure of the economy. What exactly did he do to ruin it?

I honestly feel, from what Ive learned in government classes, that the economy we saw was from what clinton did while he was in office, and im sure the war helped alittle too. War is always god for big business. I meen I am no government major but this is what ive taken from the courses i took.

You have a point.

During Clinton's terms, our country was going crazy with growth. But can you give him all the credit? While he was in office we had a Republican majority in congress. Clinton could not get anything passed unless they were on board with it. You have to give them some measure of credit for this. Also, during that time was the rapid growth of the Internet. Now in all honesty, I have never done a whole lot or research into this area, but I am assuming the rest of the world grew rapidly during this time as well from the growth in the technology sector?

o yeah for sure, i am in no way giving him all the credit, hes just a pawn in the big chess game, well maybe a knight. I also dont blame everything that happened during bush's time in office on him, same with Obama.I really aint crazy abut the health care reform. I meen it does need fixed. insurance is through the roof. But if Joe blow wasn't suing his doctor for everything it would have never got that way. I mean if there is true malpractice going on then fuck em but some of the things people sue for these days is ridiculous. I think if the judicial system in this country got straighted up alot of other things would follow. But this is coming from a sometimes less than law abiding citizen Legalize it

[waynehead]

gotta love the free market system when its allowed to work.

Thats it right there. this country has gotten away from its roots more and more over time.

[Eric D]

So instead of trying to fix health insurance how about we lower malpractice premiums through tort reform?

Now let me get this straight. Bush rode the wave created by Clinton for over 6 years, then when the Democrats won the majority in Congress, and the economy tanked, that is totally Bush's fault? Just trying to get my facts straight here.

I think Bush did ride the wave created by Clinton. He rode it a whole year before 9/11 completely changed the game and reset the playing field.

I agree, health care will create thousands of jobs. To bad we have millions out of work, not thousands...

[Eric D]

We need to take a look at history. During the best times economically we had Republican majorities in Congress. The party of the president had little to do with it.

The president is just a nationally elected scapegoat for the complaining of the people.

If we could have a Republican Congress right now, and be stuck with Obama for 10 more years, I am sure we could get back on track economically, and I would be all for it. In Obama's case, he is not the problem, but he is also not part of the solution. Clinton was part of the solution in his time. So was Bush. And, Hillary would have been right now.

Look at ANY poll you can find. Congress has an ultra low approval rating. They pretty much suck hard.

[Eric D]

Personally, I would have liked to see them simply remove the state-specific restrictions on insurance companies instead of this overhaul. Make the insurance companies compete for customers, let the free market system do what it does best.... lower costs, balance services, etc... but since thats not going to happen this was what we got. we cant rely on individuals to do the right thing and we cant depend on corporations to do the right thing, but "we the people" will do the right thing. we will drop shitty/expensive insurance, force things to change by spending our money where it makes sense for US... companies WILL follow suit or they will go out of business... gotta love the free market system when its allowed to work.

I can not agree more with this part of your post. Spot on for sure.

[waynehead]

I think Bush did ride the wave created by Clinton. He rode it a whole year before 9/11 completely changed the game and reset the playing field.

I agree, health care will create thousands of jobs. To bad we have millions out of work, not thousands...

spot on.no it definitely wasnt Bush's fault. As much as i hate to say it, being a democrat, if bush could have had some friends in congress he could have got more done. The reason Bush gets so much shit is because he is our national scapegoat and he came off as an idiot so people found it so easy to blame him. 9/11 really did screw everything up, and it isnt bush's fault. No president or congress could have stopped the detrimental effects of 9/11.

[Eric D]

Also, I hope you guys don't get the wrong impression. I am not the world's biggest Bush fan or something.

His public speaking skills were some of the worst of any leader in history.

He did nothing with regard to border security, something I think was more important than fighting a war in Iraq.

And he was WAY too religious for me, something I really have an issue with.

The only reason I defend him is I just don't think it is fair to blame him for everything. Of all the presidents in my lifetime, he is the one I can relate to the most. He was more "down to Earth" than the others. I could see myself drinking a beer with Bush or dating one of his daughters...

[waynehead]

drinking a beer with Bush or dating one of his daughters...

Heard all that