Phoenix Gold Phorum

Ok guys, sorry I haven't been around much lately, I have been busy trying to get a ride for myself and dealing with all the medical crap as well. So anyways, here's my new ride!

I picked up a nice 1990 Legacy LS Wagon w/AWD (4EAT)! It's got 146,xxx on the clock. I am the 3rd owner. It was owned by the girl's grandparents before she got it, and then she got a newer "upgraded" Legacy, so she sold this one ! I have the maintenance records for the last two years. At about 135,xxx they had a compression test done, did a brake job front and rear, and replaced the drivers side axle. At about 100,xxx, one of the Air Ride shocks went out on it, so instead of paying the $600+ or so for 1 new shock, she just replaced them all with "normal" shocks, so all the shocks are new as well and it shows. It's a very nice riding car, especially compared to my old Subaru Loyale!

It's a little bit dirty, but it should clean up super nice with a good wash, wax, and a good going through of the interior. It does have a few cosmetic things I am going to fix on it, but I got SUPER lucky and scored a new hood and a new fender at the JY yesterday that were PERFECT And it only cost $50! So the drivers side fender is getting replaced with a mint used one, and the hood is also getting replaced with one that only has a few rock chips in it, but NO dents at all! I was super stoked about that. I do need to find a way to either repaint or replacing the bumper coverings on it, but they are not THAT bad. Replacing the fender and the hood will make a world of difference!

It also has it quirks on the inside as well, but nothing major. The first thing is the door sensor (the switch that turns the interior light on) on both front doors doesn't work correctly, so the interior light is always on. Hasn't killed the battery yet But I picked up 2 new switches at the JY yesterday, so that should fix that problem. Then front door locks don't work all that well either, BUT it's not that big of a deal now that I have figured out how to work them. So I will have to tear the doors apart and see whats up with them, but that should not be that big of a deal to fix. Oh, and the power antenna doesn't work, so that will be getting replaced as well.

So overall I think I got a great lego that should last me quite a while, provided I don't run this one into a barrier

Ok, so now on to the pics!









Here you can see the hood damage, but I don't care since a great hood is going on it real soon!



Here's the drivers side fender, someone got into a wreck here, so new fender it is!





















Continuing with the pics!









The engine bay is a little dirty, but it runs like a top!



I almost forgot his name! Since my loyale was named "Mr. Roo", I only thought it was appropriate to name the newer one with less miles "Junior", so everyone meet Mr. Roo, Jr! You can call him "Junior" for short

Ok, so now onto the actual "install" part of this thread

I am going to throw all of my gear from my loyale into this one. So I got the following to install:

KDC869x
ti400.2
zx450v2
BassCUBE
SLD44
12RSDC

I think that about does it for the gear.

So anyone have any ideas for installing my amps? I really haven't looked to much into it yet, but if someone has some good ideas, I am totally down. This car is MUCH different than my loyale, so the install is going to be different as well.

I will start installing all my gear as soon as I do all the maintenance work on the car. I need to do the timing belt, water pump, all the fluids, knock sensor, change out the duty B solenoid on the trans, replace the belt, and probably replace all the hoses, on top of anything else the my buddy finds. So once the car is in perfect working order, I will then tear it all apart to install all my gear. I should be heading down to Portland the weekend of the 23rd, so I should start my install shortly after that!

The reason I started this thread now was because I wanted to show off my new toy!

Congrats on the car. Should have guessed it would be a white subie wagon.

denim wrote:Congrats on the car. Should have guessed it would be a white subie wagon.

Thanks man!

I know, and my favorite color is black, which is what color I really wanted, but this was too good of a deal to pass on because of the color. But it is funny I got another white wagon Go figure!

Nice to see you got another car, and something you were after too.

BTW, it's custom to name un-animate objects w/feminine names......

smgreen20 wrote:Nice to see you got another car, and something you were after too.

BTW, it's custom to name un-animate objects w/feminine names......

Thanks! I got lucky and found another good one almost right away, got love living in the Subaru capitol of the USA

True true, but seriously, does he really look like a girl? He's not sexy in ANY way, so I choose to name him a guys name. I got him strictly for the usability of him, not his good looks I like to reserve the feminine names for "sexy" inanimate objects, like say a Ferrari, not a 1990 Subaru Legacy

the whole name yer car thing is just WAAAAY to close to gay no matter if it is a girls or a guys name for me. The only people I know that really put thought into it and are proud as a peacock about it are chics, don't be a bunch of chics man......

I don't have a name for my truck, but I do refer to it as "her". And no Sierra is a girls truck..... At least I hope not.

ttocs wrote:the whole name yer car thing is just WAAAAY to close to gay no matter if it is a girls or a guys name for me. The only people I know that really put thought into it and are proud as a peacock about it are chics, don't be a bunch of chics man......

LMAO

too funny, although, i did name my '01 saleen vert "dorothy" because when i bought her i lived at home and some thought i may never afford to leave the roost. and like dorothy in the wizard of oz said, there's no place like home. i moved in to my own place a few short months later and kept the car 5 years...

Howdy all!

It's been a LOOOONG time since I have updated this thread, so I figured it was about time. I have been really busy lately, not only with stereo stuff, but with ham radio stuff as well, but I will get to the ham radio stuff in a min...

So I did finally get around to installing my stereo, took me a couple weeks because I kept breaking crap, and then things would fail after they were installed, but after it was all done, I like the results. It's nothing fancy by any means, but this is the first time I took my time to try to install everything "correctly", or at least as correctly as I could So here's the pics!

Here's all my amps installed in my spare tire compartment:


and some pics of the process...

First the HU:


Then running wires:


"Testing":


Upfront, I have redid this a little since then:


Making a template:


All cut out:


Everything setup to see what it looks like:


Before cleaning up:



Before carpet:


And the final again:


Shots of the doors with the tweets:



I managed to do this whole install with stuff I had kicking around already, or I just reused what was in the car. The only thing I HAD to buy was the pocket the goes above the HU since the stock deck is 1.5 din, not 1 din like the kenwood. Other than that I just reused all the old brackets to make it all fit. Gotta love having enough stuff kicking around for 2 complete installs

So that does it on the stereo install front! Now onto the ham radio gear...

So after the Japan earthquake, and because of the nature of what I do, and who I work around (The state emergency management agency), I decided to get my Amature Radio License, or Ham radio license for emergency purposes, and for fun, since I am a total nerd when it comes to this type of stuff, and radio tech is really cool once you learn it. When there is no other forms of communication, Ham radios will most likely work, and its the same gear the first responders use, so it's good to not only know how to use it, but also to be able to talk to the people who can actually help you out. Like the helicopter pilots and people like that. If you know how to use the gear and know the right frequencies to listen/talk on (which I do, including all the state and local cop shops as well ), you can really speed up your own rescue.

So with that being said, I went out, taught myself how to use the radios, took the test, passed and got my license.

Then I needed to get on the air. So a buddy of mine just upgraded his radio in his car, so he let me install and use his old one until I can get my own gear. So here are some of the pics of that install...

Here's a pic of the unit installed:




I have the remote head seperation kit, so the actual radio is in the back, and the face is installed up front.

Here's the cable for the speaker I made and ran up front:



And the speaker:


I rigged the ham radio to come on with my ignition, and also to come on when I turn on this switch, so I don't have to have the car on to use the radio. I also mount my bass cube remote there as well:


So if anyone was wondering what the thing about the radio is, it's what's called a "rigrunner", and it's used to power devices, like radios and other gear using Anderson Power Poles. If you haven't looked into anderson power poles, you should, they are fucking fantastic! I love'm, and I have been looking for a connector like this as well for the longest time. And you can get the connectors in tine little 15amp versions, all the way up to 200amp versions. They are a sweet connector, and if you want a good way to tap into the dc power in your car, they are fantastic. Here's a link to some info about them:

http://home.comcast.net/~buck0/app.htm

They have a diagram for the rigrunner on that page, and that's what I followed to make my own. Cost me about $15, and I bought everything locally, including the power poles. I think it turned out pretty damn good for my first try at this sort of thing...



Pics of the process. Took about 6 hours total from start to finish to make the box, then about another 2 hours to install it..









I tapped into the power off my cap as well, so if the radio needs some extra juice it can have it


Now to my next plan...

I want to install a second battery, and an isolating circuit as well but want some feedback on this. Here's the diagram that I came up with (Questions on the last lines):



This system works by using an oil pressure switch to keep the relay on, and both batteries connected while the car is starting and running, and then isolates it when the car is not actually running, but the ignition could still be on. So I just need to replace my oil pressure switch with a new one for $5, and then add a couple relays in, and I will be golden! The relay that is off the starting wire is there to make sure that the second battery is used during starting. It also means that you just need enough juice to trigger that relay to start your car, since the other battery will be introduced to the system as soon as there is enough power to trigger that relay. Then if there is not enough juice to trigger the relay, you just push the momentary switch and start the car. It's perfectly seemless, and only only cost a few dollars for the parts besides the relay and the battery. No switches to flip for normal use, just turn the key and go, and not worry about having a dead battery.

Now the whole reason I want to do this is not for stereo purposes, but for emergency purposes, and for camping and things like that (I don't use a backpack when camping, I "car" camp, thanks to the wife ) so it's nice to have power on tap for those things, so I designed this based off of that idea, not running my stereo full tilt till the batteries die, I am talking about a small load (15amps or so) for a long period of time.

Here's a chart I came up with for usage time using a 65AH SLA battery:
Use/How long on a 65AH Battery/How long on a 38AH Battery/Math
Draw of 3.25a /20 Hours /12 Hours
Draw of 1.9a /34.2 Hours /20 Hours

Camping/Poweroutage use (100w CFL, Blowup mattress, charge laptop/phones, that's it) /About 33 hours /About 19 hours /((20x180/3600) + (.75x3420/3600/))/.85 = 2 AH avg
Above with tv/xbox/fish tank added in for power outage (about 10a extra, 12a total) /About 4.5 hours /About 1.5 hours /Just a guesstimate
Regular Radio use (15min tx, 45min rx avg) /About 14 hours /About 8 hours /(13x900/3600) + (1.5x2700/3600) = 4.4 AH avg
Emergency Radio use (30min tx, 30min rx avg) /About 8 hours /About 4 hours /(13x1800/3600) + (1.5x1800/3600) = 7.25 AH avg

example (20amps for 3min/3600 sec hr) + (.2amps for 57min/3600 sec hr) x (Inverter/battery inefficiency if applicable) = avg AH

Hope that chart makes sense, it didn't copy to well out of excel, but I think you get the point.

No the other thing that I was worried about was what happens when you drain the sla completely, and then hook up the good starting battery to the circuit? Is it going to blow the breaker and pull over 200amps? This was one of the biggest reason to get a diode setup, was so that you could prevent this. Well, a volt drop of .7 is unacceptable to me, so I wanted to find out the pros and cons of both setups, and I can across this really good page:

http://yarchive.net/car/rv/isolator.html

It's about boats, but the same concept applies to what I want to do. They are powering stuff for a long time, not high power, and it was a really good read. This is a great quote and sums up my research (the quy is responding to points from a mailing list):

The relay may be easier to install, but it can allow heavy
current to flow between batteries when one is in a state of
greater discharge than the other. This is stress on both the
batteries and cabling - and could blow a breaker.

Maybe it could (I don't think so but lacking 100% proof) but in
practice it doesn't. Some current will flow if one battery is
completely dead but the current isn't enough to hurt anything. One
can get an idea of the magnitude of this current by observing the
current flow when one jumps off a completely dead vehicle. A few
minor sparks but certainly nothing that could possibly damage any
component in the system.

The isolator is an elegant solution which absolutely prevents
this and allows better distribution of charge current where it is needed.
The diodes are likely to blow only if something is miswired or
shorted to ground. Else they will outlive the mechanical relay
contacts by a wide margin with no degradation in performance -
which is inevitable in a relay.

The controversy over which method is better is ongoing, but all
the relay has going for it is cheaper initial cost, and in some
cases - simpler hookup.

A relay is always a simpler hookup. The diode isolator is a very
inelegant kluge that seems to have a life of its own. It wastes
power (a little less than a watt for each amp flowing), it is
relatively fragile (just as fragile as the diodes in the
alternator), is subject to destruction from even a momentary reverse
polarity (such as when one reverses jumper cables) and is difficult
to make work correctly. It might be acceptable if the charging
system is engineered (and not just kluged together) from scratch to
accommodate the 0.7-1 volt drop across the isolator but it is a pain
in the ass in the aftermarket. This is 20 years of experience
speaking.

That pretty much sums up my thinking on it, and that's why want a 200amp relay, just in case.

So with a 65AH SLA battery in the back, I think that all my needs will be met.

What do you guys think? Do you agree or not? Is this a good setup/diagram, or should I look for something else?

I am up for any and all suggestions!

Thanks!

WAT?

I am confused. Oil pressure switch? Huh? Why don't you just install a regular battery isolator

Well, $$ for one, and I like homebrew shit, so if I can do it myself, then I will go that route I am basically buying a battery isolator, a 200 amp stinger relay, but not buying all the "stuff" that comes with a $100+ "isolator" you buy off the shelf, just the part that matters and actually isolates stuff, and doing the rest myself. IDK, I am just weird that way

What about the logic behind the relay vs diode…

I really can't figure out what you have going on up there either mang..... and I am also currently in the market to add a 2nd battery to my mustang.

Ok I will sum it up, bear with me I am tired, so I might come back and edit it later

So the oil pressure switch has 3 prongs on it. The prong going to the idiot light in the dash is NOT grounded and not on when the oil pressure rises about 5 psi, and grounded when it is lower than 5 psi or the engine is off, causing the light to come on.

The other 2 prongs are another circuit all together, and when the oil pressure rises above 5 psi, it closes, completing the circuit. Then when the oil pressure drops, it opens. It does the exact opposite of the idiot light, if that makes sense.

So when the car is running, the idiot light is off (not grounded), and the other switch is closed, connected together. So I have that connected up the (-) side of the 200 amp stinger relay, and the other connected the the starting battery, so it will always have juice to trigger the relay (that's why I have a fused wire there).

So when the engine oil pressure rises about 5 psi (that usually means the engine is actually working), it is grounding the relay, causing the starting battery to be part of the charging circuit, and to keep both batteries connected to the system, but only when the car is actually running and charing. If it's not, the starting battery is then isolated.

So that's the oil pressure switch.

Now the rest of it is just for more seamless integration. The momentary switch will ground the relay making the starting battery part of the circuit and allowing you to start your car incase you run down your other battery. So this is your absolute fall back if the non-starting battery is SUPER dead. You will be able to at least start your car still, no matter what.

Now the relay on the right is tied into the "cranking" circuit in my car. My car just so happens to not have a separate starter relay, it's integrated into the stater its self so if you have a starter relay, you can just tap into that… So all I have to do is tap into that wire (the cranking wire) so I can ground the 200amp relay (and causing the starting battery to enter the circuit) during starting, since the oil pressure switch might not be working while starting the car, and not actually running. So this relay is to just make sure that when you turn the key, you are getting BOTH batteries to start your car. It also has the added benefit that all you need to introduce the starting battery to the system is enough power to trigger that relay, which is not very much. So you should almost always be able to just turn the key and start your car. Only when the non-starting battery is COMPLETELY dead will you have to use the "jump switch", which should almost never happen. Relays take very little power to use.

Then I use a distro block to take all the wires that are at the front of the car and put them all with the non-starting battery in the back. That way it's nice and neat up front, and I don't have to run anymore wires to the back. 0 awg should be plenty to run the car and carry what little amps it needs I would think. No need to run more wires.

I think that about sums up my thinking on this, LMK if I missed something… Hope that clears it up a little bit Or maybe it's clear as mud??? IDK...

I should also give credit where credit is due. I didn't come up with the idea behind the diagram, I just modified it to fit my needs and car. I got it from "Idea 4" on this website:

http://www.junkyardgenius.com/charging/dual01.html

I just realized in my tired state that I forgot to mention that… Maybe that will help explain it better.

There are plenty of circuits in the car that are only on while the car is running. Why not just use those? Hell, why would you not want to trigger it on simple accessory power anyways?

A proper battery isolator isn't that expensive anyways

Well, the main reason I don't want the isolator to be on when the accessories are on or if the engine is not running is because what happens if I leave the keys in accidentally and drain BOTH batteries? Wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose? I also only want the starting battery connected to the system ONLY when charging or starting. It the car isn't charging, I don't want it connected to the system at all. All I want the starting battery to do is start the car, or to be charging. It should never be connected to the car when the car is not running/charging IMO. Not trying to be a wise/smart arse here or anything just trying to do this "correctly", so just keep that in mind

And as for the wiring in the car, what other circuit should I tap into to? Remeber this is a 1990 subaru with what you could call subaru's version of ODB1 for the engine control, very primitive at best. It works great, but it's very simple and not a lot of options to tap into. I looked long and hard (for a couple hours) at the wiring diagrams for my car, and I do know this car very well I did install remote start in it, and there is no circuit that is on with ONLY the engine running that uses a solid 12v signal to tap a simple relay into.

I didn't mention this earlier, but replacing the oil pressure sensor requires a $5 adapter, and a $3 pressure switch, and about 5 min of my time, the switch is right on top, and nothing has to be removed to do it. It super simple. It's the only way to get a true oil pressure gauge in my car is to use a aftermarket gauge and sensor, so they adapter is tried and true in the soobie world, so I am not worried about that. Then after installing that, I just have to run 1 wire into the cab, not a big deal.

So for $8 total for the pressure switch, the 200amp relay for $52 shipped, and the distro which is $30 shipped, so for a total of $90 installed in my car with all the parts excluding the battery, I can get a great battery isolator. Every other type of isolator I found was at least $100 plus shipping.

I have looked online, and the only 200amp isolator I found is just another relay, or it uses diodes. Either way, unless you use a diode type isoloator, you need to have some circuit designed like mine.

BCAE has a good article on battery isolators…

http://www.bcae1.com/battiso.htm

So I don't want a diode isolator for many reasons, $$ being one of them, so that leaves me a relay, or something like this:

http://www.hellroaring.com/bic75150.php

And that cost $$$, like starting at $120, and that's not even for 200amps, which is what I am going for.

Am I missing something? What is a "proper" isolator?

Again, not being an ass, just trying to learn

Thanks!

Where are you looking? Most purpose built 200 amp battery isolators are $50 or less? I struggle to find ones over $100.

Hell, here's a BNIB PG diode isolator for $50 shipped:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 0557089229

I kinda see your point about using the oil pressure switch... I just think it is overkill. I am also confused a bit... wouldn't your starting battery be disconnected from the system until the engine is running?

This install kicks ass.
IMHO, if a man wants to build his own circuits, etc...he doesn't need another reason to do so.

oh,
and i am in the market for a subie wagon so am paying extra close attention to this one.

I actually bought one of those pg isolators myself this afternoon as after a short search they are the only ones I can find. I would not build my system for fear of leaving the key on and draining both batteries as that would happen almost no matter what system I had wired.

stipud wrote:Where are you looking? Most purpose built 200 amp battery isolators are $50 or less? I struggle to find ones over $100.

Hell, here's a BNIB PG diode isolator for $50 shipped:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 0557089229

I kinda see your point about using the oil pressure switch... I just think it is overkill. I am also confused a bit... wouldn't your starting battery be disconnected from the system until the engine is running?

I just did a quick google search for a 200amp isolator. I didn't look at anything other than a 200amp isolator, I was just comparing apples to apples since the relay is 200amps, I wanted to find the price of a 200amp isolator.

Honestly it took me looking at this diagram for 20min before I understood it the first time The oil pressure switch has 2 completely separate switch in it. 1 that is closed when there is no oil pressure (idiot light) and open when there is oil pressure, and then the other that works the opposite. It is closed when there IS oil pressure, and open when there is no oil pressure.

So I connect the 200amp relay up to the switch that is closed when I have oil pressure, meaning when the car is running, and only when the motor is producing enough oil pressure to close the switch. So this guarantees that only when the car is actually running is the starting battery connected to the system. You only get oil pressure if the pistons are moving, and you can assume that if your car is running properly, then if the pistons are moving, the alternator is producing power as well.

So yes, the starting battery should be connected to the system while starting and running and disconnected when not running

Oh, and yes it's complete over kill, but I just want to make it as seamless as possible

12voltjunky wrote:This install kicks ass.
IMHO, if a man wants to build his own circuits, etc...he doesn't need another reason to do so.

oh,
and i am in the market for a subie wagon so am paying extra close attention to this one.

Thanks, and get one! They are awesome! Check out http://ultimatesubaru.org/forum/ for a great subie forum. I am on there with the same name I love my subie!

ttocs wrote:I actually bought one of those pg isolators myself this afternoon as after a short search they are the only ones I can find. I would not build my system for fear of leaving the key on and draining both batteries as that would happen almost no matter what system I had wired.

Ya, if I was trying to make a PG show car, then I would probably have gotten one as well, but since I am a cheap bastard, I will just hack something together!

If I wanted to get a diode isolator, then I wouldn't need the circuit, but I just don't want to deal with the .7 drop across the diode. Lowers my voltage too much with my wimpy ass alternator. So that's why I settled on the relay, and this circuit

Thanks for all the opinions guys!

As long as your starter isn't going to cause enough oil pressure to disable the starting battery while it is turning over... that seems like a neat idea!

stipud wrote:As long as your starter isn't going to cause enough oil pressure to disable the starting battery while it is turning over... that seems like a neat idea!

That's what the relay on the right is for, it's connectrd to the starting circuit, to make sure that as long as the starting circuit is active, the starting battery will be connected. Then once it's running, the oil pressure switch takes over and keeps the starting battery connected. Got all my bases covered!

I guess I should also explain what is in my car right now as well, since the oil pressure sensor is throwing you off a little. I just reread what you said, and I think I should clarify a bit more...

Right now in my car my oil pressure sensor only has one wire, the one for the idiot light. The one wire is ground to the case of the switch, and so therefore the engine block, and then it's grounded to the battery. So right now, when I turn the key on without starting the car, the oil light comes on in my dash because the sensor closed the switch completing the circuit. Then once I start the car and the oil pressure rises above 5 psi, the switch closes, turning off the dummy light. So it only comes on during low oil pressure times, either when the car is not running, or when something really bad is going on with the car itself. That's what's comes from the factory with my car, a one prong pressure switch.

So by replacing the pressure switch with this 3 prong GM one, I am keeping the same functionality that it had before and the same behavior with the idiot light, I have just added in another switch/circuit that I can use. This other switch works the exact opposite, so when the engine is not running, the switch is open (isolating the starting battery), and when the engine is running and there is enough oil pressure, it's closed (adding in the starting battery to the system). So by tapping it to ground and the isolator relay, I can keep the starting battery as part of the system as long as there is enough oil pressure to keep the switch closed and the circuit complete.

So when starting, the thing that I worry about is that there is NOT enough pressure to activate the pressure switch to add the starting battery to the system. So that is why I used the second relay that is only attached to the starting circuit. To ensure that the starting battery can actually be used when starting. It's not much of a starting battery if it's not used when starting the car. Most likely the starter will build up enough oil pressure to activate the switch but this won't happen immediately, which is what I want. So my system just ensures that the starting battery will be used while starting the car. It also has the benefit of adding the starting battery to the circuit when the non-starting battery is almost dead, without having to press anymore switches or anything else. I wanted it to be as seamless as possible, and I think that this covers that pretty well. But I also have a way of using the starting battery no matter what using the other momentary switch.

I know that it seems like a lot, but really all it is is a normal relay, a 200amp relay, and a $3 GM pressure switch. The diagram makes it seem more complex than it truly is. I also like this circuit because I know exactly what is going on, and if something doesn't work, I can easily find the problem. There really aren't that many pieces to it, so it's not that hard to diagnosis. It uses off the shelf, cheap parts that can generally be found anywhere. The pressure switch was used in about 10 different cars over a 15 year span, so it's not hard to find one in stock somewhere.

Again, if I wanted a diode type isolator, then this isn't needed at all, but I just don't want a diode isolator. .7v doesn't seem like alot, but it adds up the more power you use, and I don't plan on adding in a super high power alternator, and the equipment that I plan on using the 2nd battery to support anyways need as much voltage as they can get. The more voltage, the more power I have to transmit, and the farther I can transmit the better, and that is what is important to me, not how loud my stereo gets. So my reasoning behind doing the second battery are different as well, so the diode type isolator just doesn't work for me.

My motto is, Go Big or Go Home, so if I am going to wire up a relay based battery isolator, then it's going to be as seamless as possible, even if it's overboard

Hope that clarifies things even more