When you invest in something it is easy to establish all of the positives. Kind of like the stock market enviroment. No one ever assumes their investments could be down 40%. No financial advisor gets in front of a client and says you could lose 40%. They tell the client how much they are going to make each year assuming the most positive outcome.
If you are wanting to build a business plan- first establish why PG's current business model doesn't work ( i only say it doesn't work by the fact that they are being sold or are considering shutting their doors). If their current business model worked no one would want to sell them. Then you need to figure out a business model that you feel would succeed. You cannot compare to another company.
Use this comparison
( You have two clients and each client has money invested. One clients account is down -35% and another client is down -5%......maybe one was invested in Emerging Markets and the other invested in Mega Cap US stocks. That's apples and oranges comparison. Even though both are investments in stocks they are both investments in two completely different areas of risk) You need to establish what business model is sustainable for car audio. Its possible that Zapco and other companies are having similar problems but you just don't know because maybe their owners are contributing their own capital.
Its great that there are a lot of designers and tech gurus here that can all contribute to making great amps but is there a huge market for that anymore ( i don't know I'm just throwing out the question). Someone else said that factory integration is the way to go. I hear of less and less people putting in aftermarket systems. Its more of a niche than a mass market appeal. So again, you have to talk about buying a company and making it sustainable......if not you will end up like Rodin, looking to sell it after several years.
Just my 10 cents
Brian
PG Update ??
Their main downfall imo has been advertising. In order to make the PG brand viable again it would take a very aggressive advertising campaign. People would have to be reminded why Phoenix Gold used to be so revered and respected AND why it still is. Most of the kids today are too young to remember PG's glory days so it would take some new ideas to grab their attention. Needless to say it would be a major expense.
It would also take at least a couple of lines, one cheapish and one high end. Not to mention you would have to convince shops to start carrying PG again. That's just for starters. I could go on all day about what I think would make a successful business model for PG but needless to say it would be very expensive and fairly risky.
It would also take at least a couple of lines, one cheapish and one high end. Not to mention you would have to convince shops to start carrying PG again. That's just for starters. I could go on all day about what I think would make a successful business model for PG but needless to say it would be very expensive and fairly risky.
it would be. but i do agree with getting in bed with manufacturers. and why not using existing stuff? ive got a set of ryval coaxs off a gm h/u and i can say its the best sound ive heard from only a stock h/u and entry level coax. ship them all off to car manufacturers which in turn gets the name out there. but the market (MASS) has changed. i think that is why they went to two lines (one cheap, one highend) octane r even though it didnt take off... to me was along the lines of what the masses want. somethin that likes all racey n n stuff, with big numbers on the box for no money. it is unfortune.. but thats the way of the market. but i do think ya'll have hit on some very good points, and advertising is obviously one of the biggest.. next to.. (someone mentioned).. stopping all the ebay/online/random ppl with boatloads of shit underselling everyone and bringing prices down. it needs to be exclusive. so people are like hey.. only a few peoples got them.. so i want one. butt... if the foundation is sound.. 
Have no fear, only uncertainty!
I haven't checked this thread for a while so when I saw it blossom to 4 pages I figured I'd see what all the hub bub was about. WOW! What is this? acquiring PG? Sweet ambitions. I have read everyones posts and can offer a few comments both good and bad.
Engineers ... Larry Fredricks always boasted he was an ART MAJOR. And lets face it, amplifier design isn't nuclear fusion. So, I think that fear can be easily overcome.
Market ... While we love to outfit OUR cars with high end equipment, it's tomorrow's cars that will need to be addressed (and some of todays that will be on the used lot in a couple of years). Allot of the systems coming out in the new vehicles use information and data lines rather then signal and voltage. It's making it harder and harder to be 'universal' or even useful to a large consumer base. This means, ultimately, having an inside edge at the auto manufacturing level. Even if for no other purpose but to get information. Notoriously next to impossible. We would have to beat-out some big names in that field. Bose, Fujitzu Ten, etc., etc.
Distribution .. in todays global economy, I think it less and less important to have 'reps'. These guys are, more often then not, the problem with being able to keep a product line 'clean'. I agree strongly with the need to keep wholesale whores outta distribution. As long as there is a strong support team in the house, dealers would be allot more receptive to selling a given brand. Sony has even opened it's warehouse doors directly to the consumer. Eliminating all middle men and reaping the profits themselves. Although I don't think car audio can be marketed the same way as digital cameras and game consoles. There will always be a need for service and installation.
Reality .. this market is and has been on a downward spiral for years. We (dealers) called it 'a race to zero!' There is a reason that car audio companies are dropping like flies. I think the toughest hurdle to jump will be re-establishing consumer awareness! And I strongly believe this lies solely in the hands of the guy standing in front of the consumer. Meaning NO BIG BOX stores. And with the downfall of most highend shops, the proliferation of 'less quality for convenience', well, it is a big, Himalayan size hurdle.
But, for what it's worth, you can count me to help build the company's demo vehicles!
Engineers ... Larry Fredricks always boasted he was an ART MAJOR. And lets face it, amplifier design isn't nuclear fusion. So, I think that fear can be easily overcome.
Market ... While we love to outfit OUR cars with high end equipment, it's tomorrow's cars that will need to be addressed (and some of todays that will be on the used lot in a couple of years). Allot of the systems coming out in the new vehicles use information and data lines rather then signal and voltage. It's making it harder and harder to be 'universal' or even useful to a large consumer base. This means, ultimately, having an inside edge at the auto manufacturing level. Even if for no other purpose but to get information. Notoriously next to impossible. We would have to beat-out some big names in that field. Bose, Fujitzu Ten, etc., etc.
Distribution .. in todays global economy, I think it less and less important to have 'reps'. These guys are, more often then not, the problem with being able to keep a product line 'clean'. I agree strongly with the need to keep wholesale whores outta distribution. As long as there is a strong support team in the house, dealers would be allot more receptive to selling a given brand. Sony has even opened it's warehouse doors directly to the consumer. Eliminating all middle men and reaping the profits themselves. Although I don't think car audio can be marketed the same way as digital cameras and game consoles. There will always be a need for service and installation.
Reality .. this market is and has been on a downward spiral for years. We (dealers) called it 'a race to zero!' There is a reason that car audio companies are dropping like flies. I think the toughest hurdle to jump will be re-establishing consumer awareness! And I strongly believe this lies solely in the hands of the guy standing in front of the consumer. Meaning NO BIG BOX stores. And with the downfall of most highend shops, the proliferation of 'less quality for convenience', well, it is a big, Himalayan size hurdle.
But, for what it's worth, you can count me to help build the company's demo vehicles!
Greg Kitching
PG has not had a high end line for some time. You can't slap lipstick on a pig and the raise the price because of it with out people noticing.
With all the car companies going retro, and the reputation that it use to have I think it only makes sence to take a step back and use the good stuff that they were known for. Don't make overproduced new crap that isn't better then the old stuff and people will buy it.
With all the car companies going retro, and the reputation that it use to have I think it only makes sence to take a step back and use the good stuff that they were known for. Don't make overproduced new crap that isn't better then the old stuff and people will buy it.
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dBincognito
- Randy Bo-Bandy
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You will certainly need to work on advertising....PG's current advertising is non-existent......I can pull out every magazine I own that is car audio related and there is not 1 PG ad 
And I can't remember when the last time I saw a PG ad was, let alone a commercial....you won't have any consumers if they don't know you exist.
And I can't remember when the last time I saw a PG ad was, let alone a commercial....you won't have any consumers if they don't know you exist.
I tend to disagree with the last statement , with the internet taking off the way it has people seem to do more research on purchases now then ever before. In the past you went to a local dealer or dealers, trusted one of them based on the story they told you and bought.
Now days the consumer is more aware of whats in the market , how it performs and what are the pitfalls if any, we have all done it.
The market has certainly moved on , the new way of doing business is no longer in boardrooms amongst a select number of people , but rather over a wider audience. Look at any of the old brands who are still around , they stayed a niche product offering just that, something they do well.
Sometimes trying to diversify is not a good thing. sometimes it is.
My gut feel still says that this can be done and could be profitable , surely with the price of components coming down and easier ways to manufacture it would be possible, what needs to be determined is which was the best selling range fro PG and improve on that.
I know in South Africa someone landed a container or 2 of Xenon amps and has undercut the "official" dealer by half, now dealer does not want to touch PG and scummy dude has cleared his stock , dealer is sitting with stuff he cannot move because of pricing and the scum is smiling, the product name is fooked becuase it has no value (think $180 for a 200.4 and $220 for a 1200.1).
Now days the consumer is more aware of whats in the market , how it performs and what are the pitfalls if any, we have all done it.
The market has certainly moved on , the new way of doing business is no longer in boardrooms amongst a select number of people , but rather over a wider audience. Look at any of the old brands who are still around , they stayed a niche product offering just that, something they do well.
Sometimes trying to diversify is not a good thing. sometimes it is.
My gut feel still says that this can be done and could be profitable , surely with the price of components coming down and easier ways to manufacture it would be possible, what needs to be determined is which was the best selling range fro PG and improve on that.
I know in South Africa someone landed a container or 2 of Xenon amps and has undercut the "official" dealer by half, now dealer does not want to touch PG and scummy dude has cleared his stock , dealer is sitting with stuff he cannot move because of pricing and the scum is smiling, the product name is fooked becuase it has no value (think $180 for a 200.4 and $220 for a 1200.1).
AKA Shaheenk
Or we can let phoenix Gold die and remember the good times we had.
Seriously though you are talking hundreds of thousands of dollars here and that’s just to get things going.
Do you think Rodin is going to let the name go for a 10k? I would love to see a company and pick PG up and make it viable again but I do not see that happening. If stinger picks up the PG name and runs with it and does something good GREAT! they have the financial background to make it happen.
Handcrafted Audio is going going almost gone. Almost all companies now day's design and engineer here but have overseas do the labor building.
It is more than just making a great amp, You need marketing (big money) RD/ Test/ QA/ Insurance. all of which is not cheap.
Hypothetical scenario here but yet plausible and probably has happened.
Say the Phoenix Gold WTF M1000 was released, And buyer A bought the amp.
Now if the amplifier happens to catch fire due to a faulty circuit and it was proven to be such and it burnt buyer A's car to the ground and Buyer A was injured are you ready to deal with something like that financially?
If you guys can pull it off more power to you and you have my support but after owning a small .com for 5 years and mind you it was a SHIT ton of work. This business venture is going to be hard and very expensive. 50 bucks from bob1954 or 3000 from PGlover29 just isn’t going to cut it..
Sorry not trying to be negitive by any means.
Seriously though you are talking hundreds of thousands of dollars here and that’s just to get things going.
Do you think Rodin is going to let the name go for a 10k? I would love to see a company and pick PG up and make it viable again but I do not see that happening. If stinger picks up the PG name and runs with it and does something good GREAT! they have the financial background to make it happen.
Handcrafted Audio is going going almost gone. Almost all companies now day's design and engineer here but have overseas do the labor building.
It is more than just making a great amp, You need marketing (big money) RD/ Test/ QA/ Insurance. all of which is not cheap.
Hypothetical scenario here but yet plausible and probably has happened.
Say the Phoenix Gold WTF M1000 was released, And buyer A bought the amp.
Now if the amplifier happens to catch fire due to a faulty circuit and it was proven to be such and it burnt buyer A's car to the ground and Buyer A was injured are you ready to deal with something like that financially?
If you guys can pull it off more power to you and you have my support but after owning a small .com for 5 years and mind you it was a SHIT ton of work. This business venture is going to be hard and very expensive. 50 bucks from bob1954 or 3000 from PGlover29 just isn’t going to cut it..
Sorry not trying to be negitive by any means.
Last edited by Shinju on Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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waynehead
- No, you're a towel.
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I agree the Pg glory days may be over. But I dont think they are out of the game. They have kept a good product through rodin and I think people that are picking up any of the rsd or rsdc products are going to realize that. I will continue to tell people how great the product is and everyone that has or have had the products will do the same. Some marketing is needed for sure. but I think stinger has the money to do so. Atleast I hope so. I dunno Im playing beerpong. I will elaborate more tommorow. 
We don't need no stinkin' bass boost!
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OldSchoolFool
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Is there a way to induce the hiss and scratching sounds of an old record player into an amp? Might be the first step.OldSchoolFool wrote:Figure out how to market to people that listen to polka. wink wink nudge nudge. They are the future.
XS2300, XS2500, XS2300, X200.4, X100.2, Ti21000.4, Roadster 66
I'm gonna become a civil engineer. I'm gonna design septic tanks for playgrounds. Little kids can take shits! You idiot, what the hell do you do?
I'm gonna become a civil engineer. I'm gonna design septic tanks for playgrounds. Little kids can take shits! You idiot, what the hell do you do?
Start selling RCA's without shields. We'll sell it as a super exclusive audiophile brand with tacky wooden boxes (that do nothing) at either end. We will make millions! Bwahahah!dwnrodeo wrote:Is there a way to induce the hiss and scratching sounds of an old record player into an amp? Might be the first step.OldSchoolFool wrote:Figure out how to market to people that listen to polka. wink wink nudge nudge. They are the future.
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knightrider358
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OldSchoolFool
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fuzzysnuggleduck
- Soy Milquetoast
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This can be related to the commoditization of every kind of product in the first world. Once the masses grab on to a market, production must increase, prices will drop (supply demand, competition, economy of scale) and quality thus declines to satisfy the consumption.
Of course, I'm massively oversimplifying and cases where what I just said is false are absolutely undoubtable.
This just goes back to my feeling that the way the markets currently work is broken. It seems (from an outsider point of view) that companies are only viable in the current free market if they are always, always, always growing and always, always, always making more profit. Companies that don't continue with constant growth are shunned by the market (traders, investors, etc.).
Again, I'm sure there's things I don't know and haven't thought about. That's just what it feels like to me.
Of course, I'm massively oversimplifying and cases where what I just said is false are absolutely undoubtable.
This just goes back to my feeling that the way the markets currently work is broken. It seems (from an outsider point of view) that companies are only viable in the current free market if they are always, always, always growing and always, always, always making more profit. Companies that don't continue with constant growth are shunned by the market (traders, investors, etc.).
Again, I'm sure there's things I don't know and haven't thought about. That's just what it feels like to me.
SOLD: '91 PG 4Runner
Agreed. I get that feeling too.
The day of the Main Street small business or even local companies with a few locations are on the decline. Quantity always trumps quality and so on. Big box stores and multinational conglomerates trading on a world market seems to be the standard now days. Making PG viable in this kind of market would cost MILLION$.
Quality is always sacrificed first because companies are always being pushed by investors and shareholders to increase their profits. They don't care about the product, they only care about the returns on their money. Which is understandable I suppose.
The day of the Main Street small business or even local companies with a few locations are on the decline. Quantity always trumps quality and so on. Big box stores and multinational conglomerates trading on a world market seems to be the standard now days. Making PG viable in this kind of market would cost MILLION$.
Quality is always sacrificed first because companies are always being pushed by investors and shareholders to increase their profits. They don't care about the product, they only care about the returns on their money. Which is understandable I suppose.
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OldSchoolFool
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Dudes- let me speak plainly:
Learn Spanish, Hindi, Chinese, Portugese.Now go out and market to the 2 billion new customers you have.
They are called "emerging markets". They are growing, as we stagnate. As these places industrialize, more and more people will want loud obnoxious music to play out their version of Donks, or Cushman carts or whatever has wheels and speakers. Millions of new customers EACH MONTH to reach. Former farmers moving to the city, grasping for modernity. Mobility is not denied these folks, therefore, neither is loud ass music.
Oversimplified, yes, but mostly true. The trick is finding locals who need your help bringing in products.
Learn Spanish, Hindi, Chinese, Portugese.Now go out and market to the 2 billion new customers you have.
They are called "emerging markets". They are growing, as we stagnate. As these places industrialize, more and more people will want loud obnoxious music to play out their version of Donks, or Cushman carts or whatever has wheels and speakers. Millions of new customers EACH MONTH to reach. Former farmers moving to the city, grasping for modernity. Mobility is not denied these folks, therefore, neither is loud ass music.
Oversimplified, yes, but mostly true. The trick is finding locals who need your help bringing in products.
Wizard, sounds like you work for B&W, I was thinking of applying there.
Anyways, hate say it guys, but you need the crew that got it there, and get them on board... selling BS China crap isn't going to do it. Morgan, the 10th anniv, never left because you guys said it wasn't the same, and lets admit, at that time PG was looking to be sold off the first time. we did not have a lot of faith in the company.
Plus PG's core business was wire and interconnects...
amps came next...
I'd love to see the place bought up and brought back to life, but I would never support the line if it was chinese crap.
Anyways, hate say it guys, but you need the crew that got it there, and get them on board... selling BS China crap isn't going to do it. Morgan, the 10th anniv, never left because you guys said it wasn't the same, and lets admit, at that time PG was looking to be sold off the first time. we did not have a lot of faith in the company.
Plus PG's core business was wire and interconnects...
amps came next...
I'd love to see the place bought up and brought back to life, but I would never support the line if it was chinese crap.
James Shields
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