Deciding on an LOC: PG, Soundgate, or Navone?

deniss · Post by **deniss** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:11 pm

My project is for a home audio system, not car audio, but I find myself needing to use a line-out converter, which seems to be auto sound domain, so I am asking for your expertise and experience

I have a very nice, entry-level, Onkyo receiver, and I want to use an external amp to drive the front (main) speakers. It sounds ok as is, but the built-in amp only has 23W/chan and not really the best specs for THD and frequency response. There are no pre-amp outs for the main speakers, only for center, surround, and bass channels. So I would like to use an LOC on the main speaker channel to step it down and then feed that into an external amp that will drive the main speakers.

I am considering 3 devices: Phoenix Gold SLD 44 (active), SoundGate LOC4.2 (passive), and David Navone's NE-7V (passive).

For the Soundgate unit, the figures are +0/-1.5 db 17Hz-27kHz and 0.005% THD 20Hz-25kHz, but im not sure at what voltage they were measured. Accepts up to 85 W per channel.

For the Phoenix Gold device (speaker-level inputs), the figures are given at 8V RMS output with 11V RMS max output: +/-0.5 db 10Hz-40kHz, 0.02% THD @ 1kHz, signal to noise rario 106db.

And I don't have specs for David Navone's device - he has not said anything about the specs when I asked him, so maybe he doesn't have hard numbers for that device. All I know is it accepts up to 40W per channel and has max output voltage of 9.5 RMS.

I am kind of torn. Navone's device seems to be best value but seems to peak around 80 Hz and then rapidly drop off for lower frequencies. The Soundgate device sounds best on paper, and provides an output of either 4V or 1.5V (user-selectable) with tunable gain. The Phoenix Gold device, which is the most expensive of the 3, would provide a flat frequency response, unlike the other two, and the functionality of a line driver for pre-amp outs on other channels of my stereo (i.e., surround, center, or base).

Can anyone offer any advice about which route to take here? I realize this is a Phoenix Gold forum, and I may very well go with PG, but I would like to weigh some pros and cons for each of those devices.

shaheen · Post by **shaheen** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:54 pm

I am pretty sure most AV recievers have line out as well as speaker out so you can connect on more powerful amplifiers.

Post by **stipud** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:58 pm

Yeah, you should definitely have a line out, even on an entry level!

deniss · Post by **deniss** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:11 pm

Well, if I had a line-out, I wouldn't be doing this

It's an Onkyo CS-V720S DVD Receiver mini-system. It has MANY things in the back of the unit, EXCEPT a line-out. It's got pre-outs for center, surrounds, and subwoofer. It's got line-in/out for a cassette tape deck add-on, it's got TV/Video connectors, etc. BUT no line-out. The manual is here, you're welcome to prove me wrong

http://63.148.251.135/redirect_service. ... UN7_En.pdf

Post by **stipud** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:39 pm

Oh a DVD "Receiver", that is quite different than a Receiver

You could use the Tape Outs, though you would need to confirm that's not at 100% volume all the time. Very frustrating! It has center, surround and bass outputs but nothing for l/r. Absolutely shameful that they left that out...

I don't think the PG unit would be worth it in this case. Home audio doesn't typically use nearly as much RCA voltage as car audio does. I have had good experiences with the Navone line drivers, so if the tape out doesn't work, I would probably recommend one of those for your usage. You likely won't even need to go over 1 volt.

deniss · Post by **deniss** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:44 pm

stipud wrote:You could use the Tape Outs

Not possible - those are only activated/used by an external tape deck, which would plug in both into the TAPE IN and TAPE OUT - simply a way to use the receiver as output/processor for an external tape deck. There simply isn't a line-out, which is why I am embracing the LOC idea.

So going back to the line-out converter question, any thoughts on which might be a better bet for my application?

KHPower · Post by **KHPower** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:50 pm

Page 13 clearly says you have a pre out. Number 10 on the illustration states: these terminals are for connecting a power amplifier

Is that what you looking for?

deniss · Post by **deniss** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:53 pm

stipud wrote:Oh a DVD "Receiver", that is quite different than a Receiver

You could use the Tape Outs, though you would need to confirm that's not at 100% volume all the time. Very frustrating! It has center, surround and bass outputs but nothing for l/r. Absolutely shameful that they left that out...

Agreed! When I bought it several years ago, I was oblivious to any kind of stereo knowledge, and this little unit has remarkable versatility, so I like it nonetheless. Just gotta be a little creative

stipud wrote: I don't think the PG unit would be worth it in this case. Home audio doesn't typically use nearly as much RCA voltage as car audio does. I have had good experiences with the Navone line drivers, so if the tape out doesn't work, I would probably recommend one of those for your usage. You likely won't even need to go over 1 volt.

The external amp that I am looking at for this is the Audiosource AMP100, which has input sensitivity of 0.9V. A few volts is typical for pre-outs in home systems, from what I understand, and more signal is better for noise reduction. But you're right - the SLD 44 may be overkill for me at this point, as I don't even know how this is going to play out. David Navone's device seems to be very nice value, and it will at least give me some idea what I'm up against.

deniss · Post by **deniss** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:55 pm

KHPower wrote:Page 13 clearly says you have a pre out. Number 10 on the illustration states: these terminals are for connecting a power amplifier

Is that what you looking for?

It's a peculiar little system. It has a 5.1 surround sound capability. So those pre-outs are for optional add-on channels, such as center, surround, and subwoofer speakers (the system comes stock with just 2 front speakers, which I since upgraded to Paradigm Mini Monitors). The MAIN front speakers don't have a pre-out, or a line-out. The receiver has a built-in amplifier - for the main fronts only - and as I said, there's no line-out to bypass it.

Post by **ttocs** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:49 pm

if there are two outputs labeled L and R then I beg to differ

Post by **ttocs** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:52 pm

couldn't you just use a 2 y connectors on the tape outputs. One on the left, one on the right so that it will feed your new amp as well as then feed back into the tape input to be amplified? I would assume you will loose a little of the signal to the 2nd amp but not sure how much.

Audiophiliac · Post by **Audiophiliac** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:10 pm

There are clearly only preouts for surround, center, and subwoofer as the OP stated. Either passive LOC should work fine. Or if you are looking at Audiosource amps, the AMP 210 has speaker level inputs.

deniss · Post by **deniss** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:52 pm

Audiophiliac wrote:There are clearly only preouts for surround, center, and subwoofer as the OP stated. Either passive LOC should work fine. Or if you are looking at Audiosource amps, the AMP 210 has speaker level inputs.

Oh my that's a nice piece of hardware... Though I can't say I have $300 to shell out on it right now. I think for now, I will opt for a passive LOC + Audiosource Amp-100 and see what shakes. This seems to be a pretty decent solution still, for around $100-120 total...