handheld oscilloscope Help!!!

[ttocs]

do you realize how funny that statements is since he was asking me to prove how I know what I am talking about? my years spent in the install bay and in the classroom is what allows me to say my words do not lack substance. If I need to post my grades to show get the substance I am requesting I can show that I graduated with honors near the top of my class but otherwise I am not sure what it takes to get any respect here or show you know anything.


"I am more educated than you so I know better" - while this is not always the case, wouldn't we agree that more often then not the educated person does know more as long as the discussion is about the topic one is educated in/on?
I am not sayin I am harvard educated but I have studied this stuff literally and been tested on it so maybe that is why I feel like I know what I am talking about.....

If you are an expert, use your expertise to argue facts which bolster your point. Don't use your degree, grades or job experience in defense of your point, because on their own they have nothing to do with the debate. You must use the knowledge, which you gained through your experience, to back up your point. This argument sums up as... I have 15 years of install experience and a degree in electronics with honors, therefore using your ears is the superior way of measuring gains. Do you see what I mean about lacking substance?

The problem is your claim of using ears as a measuring tool is not something that can be objectively or empirically proven to be accurate, while a DMM and Oscilloscope can be. A deaf person would not be able to set gains by ear, but they could use an Oscilloscope just fine.

You have claimed that your years of experience is what allowed you to be able to set gains by ear. I have no problem with that. The only thing I disagree with is that you frown upon other people using DMMs and O-scopes, when they in all likelihood cannot set gains by ear as accurately as you claim to be able to. With 15 years of installing under your belt you should know that the average joe consumer should not be trusted with his own stereo. Hell when I started I probably did more harm than good with my gains as well. By learning how to set gains properly with a DMM I started to learn what proper tuning sounds like. Without that knowledge you are just making a stab in the dark at "what sounds best", but that is not necessarily accurate.

I have never been part of a forum where 15 yrs of experience in the industry the forum is a part of would not mean anything. I have met people with degree that didn't know anything about the subj of their degree and I think we all know those people are fairly easy to spot. I am not sure where I gave the impression that I didn't know what I was talking about and still had something to prove to you guys. If that is the case then I think this place is going downhill not because I am no longer on top but because I am not sure how I should grade someones experience and know who knows what.

We both agree that the average person knows dick about their stereo I guess so I am just curious why you would expect them to know their meter/scope and not their ears? You have used one tool your whole life to dictate what sounds good to you so why would this little gizmo with the manual you didn't read and the numbers you hope you got right tell you that they are wrong? Setting the gains is not rocket-surgery and you do not have to have them perfect to have it sound good and work correctly. Installers have been doing it for long time just as I have so why are we making something more difficult then it has to be?

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

To get back on topic....

http://www.apogeekits.com/handheld_oscilloscopes.htm

I don't know anything about that company, their reputation, their quality, their customer support.... nor do I know anything about the meters they sell... but they do have a nice selection of handheld meters at reasonable costs that you can look at, compare and go on and find reviews of on your own.

It's something to browse to get an idea of what is available.

Make sure you get a x10 probe with the o-scope. Without it, you won't be able to measure the voltages on amps with decent power output. Most of those scopes at the Apogee site seem to come with one.

[stipud]

I believe that the average person hardly knows how to hook up his amp, and barely understands the gain and x-over functions of said amp. I have this opinion after watching one person after another come into my shops saying that they know everything and I should hire them only to find that they made their connections with band-aids(true story). Now again I do not believe we have alot of people like that but I think we have a few that might qualify and just need to sit and listen a little more both to the music and to what we say.

Agreed. The average car audio newbie is totally clueless. Most of us have a lot to learn as well; there are so many aspects to learn about, its impossible to know everything in this industry. Thats why we come onto these forums in pursuit of knowledge!

Now we expect everyone that comes on here is above that standard, and I think we are expecting too much. Again I was trying to feel out his experience and the system involvled before this was turned around to me proving what I know........

Well, this can be true with anything. If you are inexperienced at tuning with your ears, a multimeter or an oscilloscope, you can do harm no matter what method you choose. You need to know what you are doing, either way. The difference in my mind is that a DMM is "easy" to learn, while getting a golden ear for music is not. A DMM can be taught... hook the wires up, put on a test tone, and turn the knob until you see the right voltage. Anyone who has done grade school math and science should be able to do this. An ear for music, on the other hand, can't be taught, especially over a computer. It's something that you pick up through experience, with a knowledge of all the background work that goes into making things sound like they do.

Countless people have signed up here, and had no idea about how to set their gains. They drove their amps hard into clipping, and we taught them how to set their gains with a multimeter. They did so, and their stereos sounded better than ever. This often set them on the path to "audio enlightenment"; it's a good "foot in the door" for wanting to learn more about proper car stereo tuning. Many of these people are now regulars here on this forum!

Now the meter thing, great lets beat this dead sucker if you want ok? I have bit my lip long enough. Take into account a cheap meter(they are all the same right?) where we do not know if it is measuring rms or peak voltage, where we do not know if the leads on the meter were worth .02 cents or if they can take an accurate reading. Take into account that this person that does not understand his amps settings but now suddenly understands the meters settings and readings. Take into account that when the peak is reached and it starts to clip that the reading on the RMS meter will only change a small amount so you really do not know. Take into account we are measuring down to the mV most of the tiem and a connection that isn't perfect will be off and just wiggling the leads on the connection can cause it to drift. Take into account that once again the average person can't take the time to read the manual to understand what is going on but is now supposed to do calculation on what the meter will read. Take all of these into account and I think that the average person would be better off saving the cash on the meter and scope and JUST FUCKIN LISTEN TO THE MUSIC FOR CHRIST SAKES.......... they have just as much of a chance of blowing their equipment after spending the cash on a meter or scope if they can't understand that when it starts to sound bad, bad things happen. You guys make it sound to the "average person" that after doing these dances that they will not blow anything and we all know that is wrong.

I think your example is missing the point. You're assuming there is an uneducated person using a broken DMM. Of course that's not the right way to do it. You would need to be educated, and have a DMM that isn't a complete piece of shit. How does that prove the DMM method is innacurate? Even with a $10 hardware store multimeter, if they read within 1 volt of accurate (which all of them damn well should be able to do), they will be a lot more accurate than a person guesstimating. There's no point in measuring down to millivolts... nothing needs to be that accurate, since we've all agreed nobody could hear the difference.

WE TEACH THEM how to use a multimeter. We help them with the equations, if need be, tell them what tones to use, where to connect their probes, etc. etc. It's a simple process with tangible, measurable results. Could you teach someone how to tune it by ear this well?

I do not understand how average person or everyone for that matter cannot hear when a signal is distorted to the point it is doing damage to something and if that give me golden ears then I will keep my sig. You think that the average person has a meter/scope or at a bare minimum will be able to push the power button and off they go.......

I don't understand why people do dumb things either, but as you and I both know, ignorant people do stupid shit all the time. I bet when you started audio as a kid, you also thought gain = volume. We all probably did at some time.

I have never been part of a forum where 15 yrs of experience in the industry the forum is a part of would not mean anything. I have met people with degree that didn't know anything about the subj of their degree and I think we all know those people are fairly easy to spot. I am not sure where I gave the impression that I didn't know what I was talking about and still had something to prove to you guys. If that is the case then I think this place is going downhill not because I am no longer on top but because I am not sure how I should grade someones experience and know who knows what.

My point, which you seem to agree to here, is that a degree or field experience means nothing without knowledge. Lots of people feel like they can just wave their degree around and make grand sweeping claims with no other justification other than that THEY KNOW BETTER BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DEGREE. I think you and I both know that this is a load of BS usually. You only did this in defense of Eric, which I understand and support. You've elaborated on your point now, so I am satisfied with the substance of your argument.

We both agree that the average person knows dick about their stereo I guess so I am just curious why you would expect them to know their meter/scope and not their ears? You have used one tool your whole life to dictate what sounds good to you so why would this little gizmo with the manual you didn't read and the numbers you hope you got right tell you that they are wrong? Setting the gains is not rocket-surgery and you do not have to have them perfect to have it sound good and work correctly. Installers have been doing it for long time just as I have so why are we making something more difficult then it has to be?

I don't trust other people's ears as well as I trust mine or you trust yours. I have heard too many shitty installs to think otherwise. At least with a DMM, once you learn what to do, you can do it over and over and over again. By measuring your stereo with a measurement tool, you know exactly what it is doing. With your ears, which are a listening tool, not a measurement tool, you are always guessing. Your guesses may be accurate and well-informed if you are an experienced audiophile, but in most cases this is not true IMO.

[scottn29]

I bought a handheld version of an O-scope that was a DIY one, I still havent gotten it out to use much,as I still need to get a 10-1 probe, but you can be assured that when I get my probe and figure out how to use it, I will be using it every chance I get

[stipud]

For the record I don't completely disagree with you about most of your points, I just think that when used properly a DMM/O-scope is an invaluable tool to use. The DMM method is far from perfect, but in my experience its been a better baseline than newbies tuning by ear. An Oscilloscope is undeniably the best tool for the job, but they are expensive and difficult to use, so not always the right answer for everyone.

I tuned my headunit volume by ear, three clicks on the dial below where I can just start to hear distortion. Similarly I had to tune my EQ by ear as well. I did it with a multimeter for its rated 8 volts, but it was audibly clipping heavily at only around 5 volts. I tuned the front channels of my amp with a multimeter, but with the sub channel I set the gains so that it plays flat with my RTA (which ends up being less power than it can fully put out). I also use my LPL to turn up the gains remotely when I need a little more oomph in my bassline, which also requires maturity and knowledge on my part to keep it from being cranked into clipping.

If I had an oscilloscope I would use it for my headunit, EQ and front channel. But considering just how good it sounds using the combination of hearing and the multimeter method, I haven't been able to justify the cost of one. So I agree they are not always necessary, all I am saying is that, ignoring costs, education, product quality, etc. an Oscilloscope is by far the best measurement tool. A DMM is also a fantastic measurement tool, but its downside is that it can't show us clipping. Makes me wonder why they don't put clip LEDs on more amps actually... they work pretty damn well! Also makes me wonder if clip LEDs could be incorporated into a DMM somehow... not sure how they work exactly.

[Eric D]

This is my response to the PM ttocs had sent me. I am only posting it here as it does a better job of explaining my position on this...

You didn't upset me. I am just tired of your negative attitude towards some things.

If you don't want to use o-scopes, or DMMs, or any test equipment, that is your choice. Should a person with a deck and one amp go buy an o-scope, probably not. But, it makes no sense to discourage them from doing so, or from wanting too. I bought my first scope for $25 used. After figuring out how to use it, I significantly improved the sound of my system. At the time my system was a deck, a single amp, and a sub. I then started using it to adjust friend's systems. I charged a few bucks each time and eventually had enough money from it to buy a better used scope. When ever I adjusted a system I would measure it prior to me making any changes. Most installs had 6 or more db of gain overlap. These were systems installed and tuned by "average" people.

Of all the time I have spent working in audio, the one sticking point I have learned is you cannot trust your ears. No matter how good they are, they can be fooled. I worked with a guy a lot like you who was all about his ears. He said he could pick out any speaker, or any amp, any time. I setup a test in our listening room. MB Quart QSDs, vs Boston Zs. He was a big fan of the QSDs. I tricked him and had both A and B play on the Bostons. He went back and forth and decided that A was the Quarts, and B was the Bostons. He said he could easily tell them apart. When I told him what I had done and showed him the wiring, he wanted to kill me he was that mad. People take their ears too seriously.

As for the Asian amps thing, I think Xenon amps are junk. Not because they are made in Asia, but because they are a junk design. I am confident if PG sent over the plans for a ZPA0.5, Asia could build it just as good as we can. If they can build complex computer motherboards which work with little issue, making an amp is a cakewalk. However, if we built a ZPA, and Asia built a ZPA, I personally would still spend extra to buy the amp made in the USA. But that is just my opinion towards our products. It really has nothing to do with performance.

You and I agree on a lot of things, and I respect you for what you know. However, I think you should be more open minded towards test equipment. Or if you are going to be against something, you need to present your case with some solid evidence as to why you feel the way you do.

[Eric D]

To put things in to perspective, I wrote that whole response prior to reading any more of the thread since I last posted on it.

Yes it is completely wrong for me to make personal attacks. It gains me nothing. However, ignorance and stupidity are two very different things. Somewhere in my life I started using stupidity offensively against ignorance. I really hate ignorance, and since there is little you can do against ignorance by definition, stupidity at least brings forth amusement instead of stress.

As for education, or experience, I really could care less. If someone just got into car audio last week, but can present their point with some measure of evidence, who am I to disagree with them solely on the basis of opinion? If I have some evidence to counter their point, then we have a real argument. I know installers locally who have close to 30 years in the business and they don't really know much of anything. But I also know of some who only have a few years into it and they know a ton more than I do. It boils down to passion. They guy doing it for 30 years cares more about spending time with his family or working on his house than he does learning more about the industry he works in. And I can't blame him for that.

Nothing bothers me more than how the whole audio industry is based on years of experience over thinking and reasoning. More experience does not automatically mean you know more than someone with less, it all depends on what your experience actually is.

[oldskoolmseriesfan]

considering just how good it sounds using the combination of hearing and the multimeter method,

Im sorry Tom, but your system sounds like shit Of course Im just joshin,I have used the play it by ear meathod for years and everyone has thought my systems have sounded kick ass. I have now used the dmm method aswell ,and this system works great too, and as it stands now, Im geting into more of the science of audio and look forward to using an RTA and a Sillyscope just for the benefit of learning different and better ways to tune my system, and this is also the first time I have had the oppurtunity to own such a fine piece of equipment such as my EQ215x, but it all boils down to me to what sounds right to my ears, if all these scopes and Dmm's dont sound good to my ears,then thats my choice and I will go back to the oldskool ear method.
When it comes down to a debate such as this everyone needs to state theyre case, in a positive and thoughtful manner with no flame throwing.


Theres my .02......and I am in no way saying that I have "golden ears" Im just saying I will trust my ear for sound, if the scopes and DMM methods sound better, then I will take it, if not, I will set it by ear,and I welcome any method because I love knowledge.