What NEW PG amps are worth a damn?

[Bfowler]

the xs dont use M terminals? (but in black obviously)

[dedlyjedly]

The answer to your question Scott is a definite Yes. I too will keep my X200.4 as long as it is working. And I'm confident that will be for sometime. In fact I'm interested in adding a monoblockAs a PG dealer during the Xenon era it is quite likely that I have had my hands on more of these than most of you. Certainly some have had problems, but in my experience these xenon failures typically surface in the first few months of regular operation. After that time frame you're likely in the clear. For that reason I would only recommend buying one with a known history or a warranty.

[stipud]

The JL E amps are pretty well made. Look at the buss bars, two layer circuit boards, and surface mount components.

The Octane looks to be a one layer board. I don't know the facts on Octane reliability, but I do know one layer boards don't tend to be as reliable. With no vias to hold solder between layers of the boards, one layer board amps fall victim to vibration (worse if it were mounted to a sub box). Larger components like caps and transformers start breaking loose on the board and over time crack their traces on the underside.

XS amps are built with the same quality as MS, ZX, M, or other good PG amps. They just lack gold plating, have cheaper terminals, less components and run at lower voltages.

The Octane is indeed dual layer:


It uses the same buss bars as the JL amp, here's the same amp at a different angle:


The JL does have less buss bars, which probably means they had more engineering time to think of a better layout. Unfortunately I can't find an image of the bottom of the E-series amps, but I bet it is they are the same wave soldered style as the Octane. Not pretty, but at least they haven't had cold solder issues like the point soldered Xenons. Anyways, they are both made by the same factory, both have nearly identical parts, and the layouts are similar right down to the crossover daughter card. Yet one is "crap" according to some people, and the other is not. Funny what a lower price tag can do to some people's opinions.

Although I do agree with your points, I don't think there's any sense debating the hypothetical reliability, considering PG's own numbers support the Octane and Ryval amps.

[Bfowler]

^i was looking for ryval guts to prove that same thing!

[Eric D]

The Octane is only one layer.

One layer boards have all the soldering on the bottom, not the top side.

The JL needs less buss bars because its 2-layer board allows for a better layout.

[ttocs]

some people like to gamble but not me ................

[Eric D]

This is not perfect, but here is an illustration as to what is going on with single and dual layer boards...

...being unemployed I have a lot of time.

[Eric D]

A little explanation...

On a dual layer board, solder wicks up to the top side a bit and with solder in the top, via, and bottom areas, the component cannot go anywhere.

On a single layer board the solder is only on the bottom side. And since there is no via on a single layer board, or pad on the top side, there is nothing to hold the top of the component. With pressure, or just vibration over time, the bottom pad will start to pull off the PCB and the component will become loose. In time the trace will crack free (very thin copper). This will lead to no electrical contact, or in the case of a high power part, possible arcing of the area and burning.

[stipud]

Wow, good eyes Eric. I could have sworn I saw copper running under the paint on the front side, but you are right, I just looked again and there is none there.

I think we can all agree that most of us wouldn't want one for ourselves, but that doesn't immediately mean they are bad by any means for laymans needs.

[OldSchoolFool]

Couple of clarifications:
Octane is Korean made
Roadster has RSd guts
Ryval and Roadster were developed by the same team

Ryval and RSd were developed with vibrations and other environmental considerations in mind. I would not hesitate to bolt one to a sub box. I cannot say the same thing for Ti, Xenon, etc. Considering the relative mass of larger resistors and daughter cards hanging off the main pcb, and the mass of the main pcb itself, any amp that dampens almost all modes of vibration will last longer, probably longer than the caps and other internal components that fail for other reasons. If you think otherwise, take the screws out of the circuit boards of your favorite amp and let it vibrate like mad, and see how long it lasts.

And an analogy: So a Mustang is crap, Ford has lost it's way, because a Fusion doesn't have a v8 and 300hp? And apt comparrisons of '69 Mach I vs. a newer Fusion make sense too? Apples and oranges I think. And all are Ford quality, right?

[dBincognito]

Ford has lost it's way, because a Fusion doesn't have a v8 and 300hp?

Well a Fusion may not, but they built this. Wouldn't mind taking a spin in that


http://www.supercars.net/cars/2523.html

[stipud]

Thanks for that OSF I wasn't sure about Octane. Strange that they had no issues like the Xenon did, or was it a different factory?

I agree about mounting Ti's to sub boxes. Terrible rattle. Even mounted to my parcel shelf, even with a layer of sound deadener under the cover, it's still the only thing that rattles in my trunk. The 900.7 and 1200.1 were even worse

[dBincognito]

Thanks for that OSF I wasn't sure about Octane. Strange that they had no issues like the Xenon did, or was it a different factory?

I agree about mounting Ti's to sub boxes. Terrible rattle. Even mounted to my parcel shelf, even with a layer of sound deadener under the cover, it's still the only thing that rattles in my trunk. The 900.7 and 1200.1 were even worse

The plastic tits holding the x-over cards in is a joke


Love those amps though

[ttocs]

you can fix the rattle with the smallest piece of sound damping material put on the back. Even just a 5" x 5" square would make a huge difference.

[OldSchoolFool]

I love Ti too, but they're snare drums.

Different factory in Korea. I think the Xenon's were made over the border in NorKo.

Just kidding.

Have a good turkey day folks.

[KUB3]

Back in '95 I was buying my first ever PG amplifier - the first ZX250 in white. The guy in the audio store was a real audio fanatic. He did his best to actually try and persuade me to find a mint used MS, or failing that M series, instead of buying the new ZX. Even then, there was a nostalgia for the old school

In general I love the older MS series best. Partly as they look so well made, but also they look so simple. Every component is hand soldered which means less failures. Even if something goes wrong it's easy to swop components in ten or twenty years from new.

Now compare that with some other mass produced amps. I had a new Rockford Fosgate 200ix amp back then too. It looked awesome from the outside. Unfortunately they are not so well made inside, relying on Surface Mount Technology (SMT) to make it smaller. Mine went wrong in one week! It was replaced under warranty of course. But anything with SMT is simply disposable junk once the warranty has expired. They simply cannot be repaired at all, unless you have a microscope and a robot to hand. Since then I avoid SMT wherever possible

[robg3176]

I owned a Sapphire 1.4x back in the 90's powering my Components and Rear Fill.

It did an admirable job and was very clean. It was by no means an MS, which I could not afford in high school, but if MS was tops then Sapphire was a good upper middle amp.

Mine was rated @ 12v, and 13,8v 4x30/40 @4ohms, and would put even more power by today's 14.4v standard. All this while having a >100db S/N ration and >0.02thd.

I could only pair it with a PPI powering 2 JL 12w4's, as I got a deal for purchasing all 3 together; and the Sapphire was a closeout, had a clean white heatsink, and still cost more than a 300w ryval when comparing price per watt. Did I mention it also had separate crossover channels for both the front and rear sections w/selectable high/low switch?

I'd take my Sapphire any day over any cheap xplod amp. They're by far better

[oldskoolmseriesfan]

but if MS was tops then Sapphire was a good upper middle amp

Actually your Saphire was the entry level offer from PG. It went Sapphire, M series, MS and then MPS. But your right about the qualityon those amps, they definately didnt sound like an entry level amp for sure.