Rear Fill Questions...

[eulogious]

So instead of hyjacking someone else thread, I figured I would start a new one

I was reading in another thread about Tang Bang 6x9's (Part Linky) being used for rear fill, and now I have some questions on rear fill.

I have never really played around with "rear fill", so I don't really know what I should get or not get for that matter. Right now I have some Panasonic coaxial 6x9's that are mounted by my rear hatch in my wagon (at the very back on my car), and I want to replace them with something better. I was looking to get some of the RSd 6x9's (Part Linky) for the back, but you guys mentioned that rear fill should not have tweeters, so it looks like that is not what I want. So I do not want any highs for rear fill? I have a tantrum 600.4 powering them, so I can configure it so that they don't get any highs, so that's not a problem, but is that what I want to do? So would these Tang Bang 6x9's be good for that? The 6x9's are installed BEHIND my sub because it's a wagon and that's where the PO installed them, so would that make a difference in the rear fill?

I guess I am kinda confused on rear fill "Fill" me in guys! (bad pun I know, but I couldn't resist! )

[waynehead]

Hey bro, what are you working with in the front right now? I've always just spent all of my budget on my front stage and left out the rear fill unless it was still necessary. As far as the rsd 6x9's go, If you are going to be running them off of your tantrum then you could always cross them around 800k or so. It usually isnt recommended to run rears off of an amp either tho. Not sure how in the know you are but their is good reason for all this. Bass below a certain frequency starts to become omni-directional to our ears. So if you have your front stage taking care of everything from 70hz and up and doing it well, then the sub bass actually seems to come from your front speakers. It is a must to have everything blended properly and if you like your music tuned alittle bass heavy like alot do, then you are going to need some awesome midbass.

[jbob0124]

You could just run them off of the head unit, instead of powering them with the amp.

[ttocs]

some people like rear fill, some do not. Some people like it full range, some do not.

What do you like? DO-IT!

[kg1961]

some people like rear fill, some do not. Some people like it full range, some do not.

What do you like? DO-IT!

I agree with this 100% its your car your type of music

[loxxrider]

I personally dislike rear fill with full range. Rear fill with only low range is like having a sub to me so thats what I'm after this time around. My car needs the rear fill because the fronts don't have enough volume (cu in) to sound like they should in the low to mid range. Even crappy rear fill helps out with this for me. It definitely depends on how YOU like it though.

[eulogious]

Right now in the front I got 1 jbl 6.5" in the passenger door, and 1 memphis reference 6.5" in the drivers door Even got the memphis out of a junked subie I plan on getting some RSdcs6.5 components when I gets some more money.

The only reason I run the tantrum for rear fill is why not? I gots 4 channels of 75w RMS, why not clean up the sound pushing the rears?

I have it tuned a little bass heavy, so that's what I am thinking is that I need more midbass. I think I got it blended pretty well, you can't really tell where the sub is, and the rear is not overpowering at all, but it's still there. I think I got it setup at least ok on that front.

I think this is my issue, I don't know what it sounds like to NOT have full range in the back. I am going to have to do something about that, but that requires moving my amps around, but that's ok. I think I will try that. Once I move the amps around (I am not being dumb on this and it needs to be done, I just really don't want to explain why, it's not important to this topic…) I can then use the tantrum to cut the high range off the rear and take a listen.

I also haven't really heard any good midbass either. Nobody I know has a good system, so I can't really compare what I have heard to anything different. Make sense?

I listen to alot of rock, tool, metallic, megadeth, shinedown, theory of a deadman, you get the point. What do you guys think would sound best? I am just looking for opinions on this, because I really don't know any different.

What would be the best speaker to get, a full range speaker like the RSd or a speaker like the Tang Bang? I would say the Tang Bang would be good for midbass, like the low end of a guitar (not a bass), and for power chords and what not in rock, but I could be wrong.

I want your opinions because I really just don't know, so I am open to anything… Thanks all!

[stipud]

When you go to a concert, do you face away from the stage? Hell no, you want all that sound right in front of you! You have two ears, so you need two point sources. So I try to bring the same illusion to the car. As such, I believe in using as little rear fill as possible, however in some vehicles it can be beneficial for rear seat passengers.

The ideal system, in my mind, has at least 60Hz-20kHz in the front stage. This is the frequency range where the human ear can easily locate where the sound is coming from. With the subwoofer crossed over below 60Hz, it blends in seamlessly with the front stage and it sounds like all the bass is coming from the front of the car. This usually gives you the fullest stereo sound image, with the absolute best imaging and staging.

Now with car audio, everything is a compromise. Your components may not be able to extend down to 60Hz with the oomph you might expect, and you may not have room to install dedicated midbass, so you would have to increase the crossover range. This makes the subwoofer easier to localize. However, if the drivers blend well enough, it can still be very hard to tell until you are pushing well over 100Hz.

And of course not all of us drive two seaters, and have back seat passengers as well. Some purists are under the mindset that the people in the back don't matter. I personally disagree, to a point. I make an effort to improve the sound for my back seat passengers, as long as it doesn't noticeably interfere with the front stage. Because of this I don't install tweeters in the back. They are, by far, the easiest to localize. Plus, with all the windows in a car, treble usually propagates really well from the front of the car to the back.

However, with mids installed in the doors, your midrange tends to get absorbed by the front seats. As such, in a bigger car I will install MIDRANGES ONLY in the back. Usually I power them off the deck, while all the other speakers are amplified. I only use these drivers to add a few decibels of midrange for the back seat listeners, but I only turn it up to the point that I start to notice the sound in the front seat.

[eulogious]

When you go to a concert, do you face away from the stage? Hell no, you want all that sound right in front of you! You have two ears, so you need two point sources. So I try to bring the same illusion to the car. As such, I believe in using as little rear fill as possible, however in some vehicles it can be beneficial for rear seat passengers.

The ideal system, in my mind, has at least 60Hz-20kHz in the front stage. This is the frequency range where the human ear can easily locate where the sound is coming from. With the subwoofer crossed over below 60Hz, it blends in seamlessly with the front stage and it sounds like all the bass is coming from the front of the car. This usually gives you the fullest stereo sound image, with the absolute best imaging and staging.

Now with car audio, everything is a compromise. Your components may not be able to extend down to 60Hz with the oomph you might expect, and you may not have room to install dedicated midbass, so you would have to increase the crossover range. This makes the subwoofer easier to localize. However, if the drivers blend well enough, it can still be very hard to tell until you are pushing well over 100Hz.

And of course not all of us drive two seaters, and have back seat passengers as well. Some purists are under the mindset that the people in the back don't matter. I personally disagree, to a point. I make an effort to improve the sound for my back seat passengers, as long as it doesn't noticeably interfere with the front stage. Because of this I don't install tweeters in the back. They are, by far, the easiest to localize. Plus, with all the windows in a car, treble usually propagates really well from the front of the car to the back.

However, with mids installed in the doors, your midrange tends to get absorbed by the front seats. As such, in a bigger car I will install MIDRANGES ONLY in the back. Usually I power them off the deck, while all the other speakers are amplified. I only use these drivers to add a few decibels of midrange for the back seat listeners, but I only turn it up to the point that I start to notice the sound in the front seat.

Same post time!

Ok, I gotcha and that makes sense, and kinda was what I was thinking, you just worded it very well

So since I have a wagon and it's about 12' from my front speaker to the back hatch, I will probably want to use rear fill. Lots of space in the back. So should I just go with a midbass speaker then? What you are saying kinda looks like what I was thinking in my previous post, IDK...

[stipud]

So since I have a wagon and it's about 12' from my front speaker to the back hatch, I will probably want to use rear fill. Lots of space in the back. So should I just go with a midbass speaker then? What you are saying kinda looks like what I was thinking in my previous post, IDK...

Midbass should ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS be installed up front. As I said frequencies above 60Hz are easy to localize... well if you install midbass pushing 60Hz-250Hz in the REAR of your car, that will drag the entire bass image to the back.

Now if you get RSD 6.5's and deaden your front doors properly I don't think you will be disappointed with the midbass at all. When properly deadened those things absolutely SLAM.

I would probably recommend putting midranges in your rear doors off of deck power. If you've got 4 channels of amplifier, bridge it to the front components and put more power to them instead!

[ttocs]

again I think it is up to the owner of the stereo to decide what sound good to them. I personally like a little bit of rear fill and if running full range will fade it forward till they are just barely audible. In both of my systems I run diamond audio hex series which has a RAF(rear audio fill) which is a band-pass of freqs that is also attenutated(selectable at -3, -6db). I like the fill it gives as it is more of a reflected type of sound as well as allowing me to run rear speakers with out needed another amp.

[Eric D]

Back when I was selling car audio, and when dealing with friend's systems today I have a simple take on rear fill...

Almost everyone wants to run similar components or co-ax front and rear by default. So, say you plan to buy a $150 set of front speakers, and a $150 set of rear speakers. If you take that money and buy a $300 set of front speakers, and run nothing in the rear, I am 97.65% certain you will be happier with your purchase.

When you double the money spent on good components, or go from co-ax to components for example, you end up with performance an order of magnitude better.

You can always add rear fill at a later time if you feel you need it, and you can worry about budgeting for it at that time.

[eulogious]

Midbass should ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS be installed up front. As I said frequencies above 60Hz are easy to localize... well if you install midbass pushing 60Hz-250Hz in the REAR of your car, that will drag the entire bass image to the back.

Now if you get RSD 6.5's and deaden your front doors properly I don't think you will be disappointed with the midbass at all. When properly deadened those things absolutely SLAM.

I would probably recommend putting midranges in your rear doors off of deck power. If you've got 4 channels of amplifier, bridge it to the front components and put more power to them instead!

Ok, I think it finally sunk in what you are saying I really don't know if I will deaden the doors, it's a subie, but I might do something. I think just having new components will make a big difference in sound, regardless if I deaden the doors or not. Should I really run 300w RMS to my components? My birth sheet said it was over 300w a channel bridged. Seems like alot of power. Hell, I can barely turn it up now without it hurting my ears, and my gains aren't even turned up! But I really don't know what I am talking about with this, so ya

Also, I don't have speakers or speaker holes in my doors I don't believe, that's why the PO put the 6x9's in the rear by the hatch I really don't want to cut up my doors, and then run wires and all that crap, I honestly don't care that much

I do haul people around in my car, it's a 4 door wagon and I bought it because it's a 4 door wagon so I want to use it like one, so maybe I should just go with the RSd 6x9 in the back and compromise? I don't think that there really is a perfect way to get it done. The RSd's are only $50, and they should sound better than the cheap panasonic's I have now, so how could I go wrong? IDK...

[eulogious]

Back when I was selling car audio, and when dealing with friend's systems today I have a simple take on rear fill...

Almost everyone wants to run similar components or co-ax front and rear by default. So, say you plan to buy a $150 set of front speakers, and a $150 set of rear speakers. If you take that money and buy a $300 set of front speakers, and run nothing in the rear, I am 97.65% certain you will be happier with your purchase.

When you double the money spent on good components, or go from co-ax to components for example, you end up with performance an order of magnitude better.

You can always add rear fill at a later time if you feel you need it, and you can worry about budgeting for it at that time.

My issues isn't necessarily money for the fronts or budgeting, I want good front components and I will buy good front components, so in that regard money is no issue, even if I have to save for it. So I get that, and that is also why I want components as well, instead of coaxial like I have now. I will totally notice a difference in sound.

I just really didn't know what and how people did RAF. For my listening, I think I like a little bit of rear fill, because my car is so big, and without it, it does sound funny. When I was adjusting my gains, I turned them down and listened to it and it sound like crap without any noise in the back. Just dead space. The front just can't fill the whole back with sound, at least the way it's setup now. So I am thinking that RAF is a must for me. But the speaker is still where I am on the fence, but I am leaning towards a decent set of coxials… so keep the opinions coming!

Thanks all for the responses so far!

[ttocs]

the nice thing about having them is that you can always turn them down or fade them forward and decide if you like RAF or not. If you do not have speakers back there it is not an option to try and imagine if it will sound better. I would not recomend a super high quality speaker but something that you will hear.

[stipud]

Ok, I think it finally sunk in what you are saying I really don't know if I will deaden the doors, it's a subie, but I might do something. I think just having new components will make a big difference in sound, regardless if I deaden the doors or not. Should I really run 300w RMS to my components? My birth sheet said it was over 300w a channel bridged. Seems like alot of power. Hell, I can barely turn it up now without it hurting my ears, and my gains aren't even turned up! But I really don't know what I am talking about with this, so ya

Also, I don't have speakers or speaker holes in my doors I don't believe, that's why the PO put the 6x9's in the rear by the hatch I really don't want to cut up my doors, and then run wires and all that crap, I honestly don't care that much

I do haul people around in my car, it's a 4 door wagon and I bought it because it's a 4 door wagon so I want to use it like one, so maybe I should just go with the RSd 6x9 in the back and compromise? I don't think that there really is a perfect way to get it done. The RSd's are only $50, and they should sound better than the cheap panasonic's I have now, so how could I go wrong? IDK...

Sounds like the RSD coaxials should work well for you then. Alternatively use 6x9 adaptor plates and install a set of round midranges. I like the Dayton Reference drivers we put in the back of Fuzzysnuggleduck's car, for example.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=295-374

I strongly recommend deadening your front doors at the very least. I put it off myself for years, but after finally biting the bullet I can say it is totally worth it. For $50 you could easily do both of the front doors:
http://www.fatmat.com/bulk/fatmat/25.html
Or for $125 you could do the whole car:
http://www.fatmat.com/bulk/fatmat/100.html

This will make a way bigger sound quality difference than $125 worth of anything else in your install. Generally, sound quality is only about 80% install, 20% gear. A proper install with shitty gear will sound way better than a shitty install with awesome gear.

[loxxrider]

Yeah, I can vouch for that. I have had RSD's in two different cars. One that allowed a huge sealed enclosure in the doors and this current one which allows for almost no space. They pounded in the other car, pretty much suck in the low range in this car. The only difference is the install. Same amp, HU, etc.

I would like to deaden the doors and essentially just make the door one big enclosure, but thats a lot of weight for a car thats not supposed to be heavy for my purposes...not to mention its going to be really hard to do.

[eulogious]

Sounds like the RSD coaxials should work well for you then. Alternatively use 6x9 adaptor plates and install a set of round midranges. I like the Dayton Reference drivers we put in the back of Fuzzysnuggleduck's car, for example.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=295-374

I strongly recommend deadening your front doors at the very least. I put it off myself for years, but after finally biting the bullet I can say it is totally worth it. For $50 you could easily do both of the front doors:
http://www.fatmat.com/bulk/fatmat/25.html
Or for $125 you could do the whole car:
http://www.fatmat.com/bulk/fatmat/100.html

This will make a way bigger sound quality difference than $125 worth of anything else in your install. Generally, sound quality is only about 80% install, 20% gear. A proper install with shitty gear will sound way better than a shitty install with awesome gear.

Funny you should mention fatmat I just traded it for my 400.2. I had over 50 sqft of it. Oh well, the 400.2 was an excellent trade and it work out for both parties involved so I can't complain at all. I did however recieve some sound deadener from another buddy for free. It looks like squares of tarish stuff. I know not the best, but it should work, and it's free. He just had it sitting around so I took it. It doesn't smell, so it should work…

What do you think of that dayton driver? How did you have it crossed over, if you did have it crossed over? How do you like the frequency range on it? I am curious about it, it seems like a good speaker...

I am open to any and all suggestions on the speaker, the RSd's was just the first thing that came to mind because all I was doing was replacing it with something the same size, and PG stuff seems to be good so ya. Looks like the range on that dayton driver pretty good. It still gets fairly high, but leaves the rest of the highs for the front.

[eulogious]

Ok, so I decided to take some pics of my rear speakers so you guys get an idea of what I am dealing with.











So as you can see I can actually seal it up pretty good if I wanted to. Those compartments actually go from the top of the speaker down to the floor, so there is some air in there as well. Maybe I should seal them up, and then put in some of that sound deadener in the "box" as well. Would probably help, no matter what speaker I end up getting.

I also have Pioneer speakers, not panasonic, my bad

[eulogious]

Searching around, I found this cool link to a review on a TON of drivers…

http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/

They also have a cool results page that shows the frequency repsonse and THD and what not of all the speakers. It's cool. Gives me a good idea on where the speaker shines, that's for sure

http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/compare.html

Spec sheet:

http://daytonaudio.com/files/specs/RS18 ... csheet.pdf

[gridracer]

I never use rearfill I don't like hearing music behind me.

[ttocs]

I would not use cheap deadoner as when it fails it is 2x as hard to cleanup and correct then it was to just do it right, do it once.

[eulogious]

I would not use cheap deadoner as when it fails it is 2x as hard to cleanup and correct then it was to just do it right, do it once.

That's kinda what I was thinking, so I probably won't use it for my doors.

I got around to switching my amps around so that I could hear what my rear speakers sounded like x-over for subs, and I didn't like it. I actually like having a little bit of mids and highs behind me. Not a lot, but enough to give you that surround sound feel. So I think I will be going with the RSd 6x9's. and then down the road I will sound deaden my doors. Thanks all for the advice and the explanations!