the debate that stemed from the ti1500.1 review

[randy8876]

I will do nothing of the sort. My suggestion for you with the Ti series of amps would be to buy one, test it, beat on it, measure it, A/B it or whatever else you would need to do to see its performance and if the amp sucks get your $$ back and post your findings here. Please I want some nitpicking to go on, in person, on your test bench or car to post valid arguments.

Valid argument? Coming from the guy that tried to use the "the engineer that designed it moved to China to supervise production in Korea" angle?

So what is the engineers name?

Buyers rely on company statements and independent tests. Or maybe you think all the buyers should own full testing equipment for ever product they might ever buy?

After seeing your posts and the other guy that claimed a .02% THD I'm not impressed. I had some pretty simple questions, and I got a variety of answers that weren't really answers at all.

I dare you to put this amp up against the JL HD750/1 and the slash 1000/1 and see how they compare.

In fact, what do you consider the comparable amps to be?

[AAMP217]

The target market they want is different, not the audiophiles, but just the general buyer. But I honestly think if we put these amps against Pioneer or Alpine and the listener doesn't know what's there they likely won't be able to single out the PG one.

If our target market was the "general buyer" (whatever demographic that is) we would be selling our products all over the web and competing on price with the brands you mentioned above.

Another thing that I think is changing are multiple pieces and the size. The guys I work with seem like average consumers, and their response to a separate xover was "What, your amp doesn't have one, man you gotta upgrade that". And a big number is all that matters. The M100 was considered to small for the one guy, since his 10's are rated at 300 watts.

Not sure the basis for this or even where the average consumer trend data came from but it doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe I just don't understand.

The size and included xover why I'm considering the JL amps, although the price is a little scary for a 900/5. I might go with a 400/4 and wait 2 months than add the 750/1. I want the power to drive a pair of MB Quart QSD216's, a pair of QSC214's and the QSC164. I want the lowest distortion ratings since I paid a premium for my mids and tweets.

So the high end JL amplifier will be powering MB Quart QSD speakers that are the on the level with a set of Alpine Type-R or Infinity Kappa seperates and the QSC series would be equivalent to a Type-S or Infiniti Reference. The Ti line from PG are absolutly in the same ballpark for quality ever since Quart went to Maxxsonic's (which the QSD and QSC were the last ones produced before they sold to Maxxsonic's or they could just be part of the Crunch/Maxxsonics/Hifonics line). They are mid-line speakers. With massive amplifer setups that you have described I would think you would find the performance you want with speakers like Focal K2P, JL ZR or C5's, etc... Your are on both sides of the fence here.

As far as reliability... I've been using PG M series amps since 1996. I've got the 3 I have now, I had a Route 66 and once upon a time I had an M50. I never had any issues other than the M25 like to blow some crappy Boston Acoustics mids I used to own. I switched to different mids and have been fine ever since.

I hope they consider a line of amps that are designed to be stuffed under the drivers/passengers seats in a car. Watch and see how the product demand shifts in the next few years.

Please see Phoenix Gold S-Series S1000.1 & S400.4

It would be great to see PG make a line of upscale ultra premium amps in the $400-900 range. Something that offers low distortion and reasonable power. Limited enough to keep demand high and ownership kind of exclusive. But good enough to carry the reputation high.

I just don't think the Ti series is gonna be that product.

Sorry you feel the class A/B Ti amps will not fit that bill. Those amps are designed to fit exactly what you have just said. All you can do is try one and if it doesn't live up to your expectations then get your cash back and buy JL or Hertz or whatever else is out there. These amps are what you have described and listening to them is the only way you will be able to see that.

[AAMP217]

I will do nothing of the sort. My suggestion for you with the Ti series of amps would be to buy one, test it, beat on it, measure it, A/B it or whatever else you would need to do to see its performance and if the amp sucks get your $$ back and post your findings here. Please I want some nitpicking to go on, in person, on your test bench or car to post valid arguments.

Valid argument? Coming from the guy that tried to use the "the engineer that designed it moved to China to supervise production in Korea" angle?

So what is the engineers name?

Buyers rely on company statements and independent tests. Or maybe you think all the buyers should own full testing equipment for ever product they might ever buy?

After seeing your posts and the other guy that claimed a .02% THD I'm not impressed. I had some pretty simple questions, and I got a variety of answers that weren't really answers at all.

I dare you to put this amp up against the JL HD750/1 and the slash 1000/1 and see how they compare.

In fact, what do you consider the comparable amps to be?

Bro now you are just embarrassing yourself. Please do a little research to see how we put the Ti2500.1 against (2) JL HD750/1's and the slash series is something we have never compared Ti line of amps to, pick one line od the other. The engineer in question has posted in this thread multiple times, sometimes in direct response to your questions. I am not sure what you are after on this forum but as a Phoenix Gold employee I will be the first to say JL Audio makes great amplifiers but we have also developed amplifiers that can compare to what they have.

[randy8876]

Randy, if you are honestly considering the JL HD series, you really have no right to be in any argument here in this thread.

How can you complain about THD levels on these amps in one hand, while in the other think a full range Class D amp will have lower distortion levels than your M series amps from 15 years ago?

Full range Class D may become the future, but is is worlds behind the simplistic design of an M series amp. You will gain a ton more power at the expense of clean output.

The HD series has a pretty low distortion rate, <.03%. The S/N ratio is high and the footprint is small. Since small size is important this time, it greatly narrowed the options. Keep in mind the THD rate of the Ti1500 is 33 times higher. The rate for the old M series was .007% (I think), so the HD has 5 times the THD rate, which is much better than most new amps on the market.

Trust me, if I could fit my M44 and M100 under my driver seat I would.

[randy8876]

Bro now you are just embarrassing yourself. Please do a little research to see how we put the Ti2500.1 against (2) JL HD750/1's and the slash series is something we have never compared Ti line of amps to, pick one line od the other. The engineer in question has posted in this thread multiple times, sometimes in direct response to your questions. I am not sure what you are after on this forum but as a Phoenix Gold employee I will be the first to say JL Audio makes great amplifiers but we have also developed amplifiers that can compare to what they have.

Bro,
Where is that test?
Google Ti2500.1 and jl hd750/1 and it doesn't come up with much.

Or was this just a half-assed experiment that lacks any value other than promotional?

[AAMP217]

from the reviews i have read i think they did a hell of a job. remember its not 1993 anymore and the market is different now. keep up the good work AAMP.

From all the guys here at AAMP, thank you!

[randy8876]

Sorry you feel the class A/B Ti amps will not fit that bill. Those amps are designed to fit exactly what you have just said. All you can do is try one and if it doesn't live up to your expectations then get your cash back and buy JL or Hertz or whatever else is out there. These amps are what you have described and listening to them is the only way you will be able to see that.

When will we see a test on the A/B amps? What's the owners manual say for THD? Is it 1% like the Ti1500.1? Or will the answer vary from post to post?

[stipud]

Fuck yeah we're a cult. This is the Phoenix Phorum baby! This is a fan run site!

It sounds like you're pretty set on the JL HD amps. Go get them, you will be happy. They are great! If you decide to look past the numbers on paper and buy a PG amp, we would be happy to help you in the future

[bruther]

The size and included xover why I'm considering the JL amps, although the price is a little scary for a 900/5. I might go with a 400/4 and wait 2 months than add the 750/1. I want the power to drive a pair of MB Quart QSD216's, a pair of QSC214's and the QSC164. I want the lowest distortion ratings since I paid a premium for my mids and tweets.

So the high end JL amplifier will be powering MB Quart QSD speakers that are the on the level with a set of Alpine Type-R or Infinity Kappa seperates and the QSC series would be equivalent to a Type-S or Infiniti Reference. The Ti line from PG are absolutly in the same ballpark for quality ever since Quart went to Maxxsonic's (which the QSD and QSC were the last ones produced before they sold to Maxxsonic's or they could just be part of the Crunch/Maxxsonics/Hifonics line). They are mid-line speakers. With massive amplifer setups that you have described I would think you would find the performance you want with speakers like Focal K2P, JL ZR or C5's, etc... Your are on both sides of the fence here.

I was wondering who was going to point this out.

[AAMP217]

Bro now you are just embarrassing yourself. Please do a little research to see how we put the Ti2500.1 against (2) JL HD750/1's and the slash series is something we have never compared Ti line of amps to, pick one line od the other. The engineer in question has posted in this thread multiple times, sometimes in direct response to your questions. I am not sure what you are after on this forum but as a Phoenix Gold employee I will be the first to say JL Audio makes great amplifiers but we have also developed amplifiers that can compare to what they have.

Bro,
Where is that test?
Google Ti2500.1 and jl hd750/1 and it doesn't come up with much.

Or was this just a half-assed experiment that lacks any value other than promotional?

My final post to you because you are right, I am after some self righteous promotion for Phoenix Gold which is nothing more than rebadged non USA assembled cookie cutter amps. Read some posts, look at the performance of the JL HD750/1’s vs. the Ti2500.1 on the (2) 13w7's, you can even use the search button at the top of the page if you wish. Once you are done researching tell PG how far off we are and we should have just sold the brand to JL because we have no chance. Why you chose to come to this forum I will never know, maybe to point out the error of our ways. Enjoy the JL product as I am sure it will be fine and maybe in the future we will manufacture products that have acceptable standards to you. This thread has been totally derailed and I vote to have the non-Ti1500.1 review posts separated from this thread and if we could just open up another thread for the “what we did wrong” posts. Good luck to you in car audio sir and its too bad we can’t satisfy every customer but it will not stop us from trying.

[bruther]

...being an "old school" guy as well I'm interested to hear the new ti series amps...I think you guys have really done a nice job turning things around....I'll save my amp performance opinion until I've listened. As for, cosmetics and buzz....you've got my attention.

So are my Rainbow's to high end or too low end of speakers for the new ti amps?

[randy8876]

look at the performance of the JL HD750/1’s vs. the Ti2500.1 on the (2) 13w7's, you can even use the search button at the top of the page if you wish.

Search didn't show it. But if it was an SPL show down than it doesn't matter. I'm not seeking endless noise, I want sound quality. I won't argue that the amp makes a lot of power. My problem is the 1% THD sacrifice.

This thread has been totally derailed and I vote to have the non-Ti1500.1 review posts separated from this thread and if we could just open up another thread for the “what we did wrong” posts. Good luck to you in car audio sir and its too bad we can’t satisfy every customer but it will not stop us from trying.

I see. Since you and the other PG guy faced opposition you think if should be censored? Awesome. Or is it the fact that the other guy gave misleading specs at first? Or the non-sense you posted about the guy settling in China due to his dedication in supervising production in Korea? Customer service is proven not when things go smooth, but rather when there are bumps in the road. You two are showing your true colors when you face any type of bumps.

No matter what this is still a 1% THD amp. That shouldn't be a quality product in anyone's eyes. It's just average.

[eulogious]

I am just going to chime in here real quick.

After readind through all the posts, there have been some really valid points from both sides, and some not really valid points from both sides. But I will say this, both Morgan and Zak have done a good job trying to "handle" you randy. Keep in mind they are both AAMP employee's, and then have done a great job in trying to answer your questions. I am sure that if they weren't employee's the kids gloves would have come off long ago

After working in customer service for a good portion of my life, I would have handle this situation about the same as they did. From what I can tell, it doesn't matter what the facts are, or really how good the new amps might sound, randy, you just don't like them and it sounds like that will not change. That's cool, opinions are like assholes.

Notice how they never answered you questions about the engineer? It's because it doesn't matter at all. It's the truth and it shows they do actually care enough to have an employee live overseas. China and Korea are close to each other right? At least closer than living here and trying to get overseas if needed. Saves alot of hassle having someone even a few hours away, instead of a few days a away and a big sea in the way. So having an engineer overseas and already living there just makes sense, regardless of his location and proximity to the facotory. So your whole point on what he is overseeing is really pointless. Not many companies have an engineer living overseas working with the production lines period. So it's really doesn't matter where he lives. That's really a dumb argument IMHO (see above about assholes )

And who are you anyways? Why do they need to prove this to you? From what I have seen from them and their posts on here, they have no reason to lie to us about anything, so why do they need to prove anything to you? Hell, you haven't even heard the new product, let alone purchased it, so they really don't "owe" you an explanation for anything! At least buy the product and then you can bitch when they don't answer your questions the way you like, and it sounds like you might be able to get your money back anyways if you didn't like it, so why are you bitchin' again? The product speaks for it's self, complaining about when you haven't heard it, just seems like a waste of time to me Listen THEN bitch, not the other way around. I think the old saying is "Don't put the cart before the horse". Fits perfect here.

Isn't there college courses on statistics as well that are specifically to teach you how to manipulate numbers and "facts"? So that would lead me to conclude that even "facts" can be misleading, which is what is being demonstrated here. Nothing more, nothing less. They are just numbers on a piece of paper that anyone can change and twist around to come to the conclusion they want. There are people that do this everyday and are damn good at it. They only true test is going to be your ears for any piece of audio equipment, which you randy admit you haven't even heard the new amps, so this whole argument is really just an exercise in statistic manipulation if you ask me.

So good work Morgan and Zak on the PR front! To me you just showed me why I WOULD buy a PG amp over a JL, you guys actually care about PG and it shows! So keep it up!

[MW3]

I just ran out of popcorn. Nice to see some fireworks around here.

Three things everyone should take from this thread:

JL builds good product.

PG builds good product.

Bashing audio products without even seeing, listening or testing them is not cool.

[eulogious]

I just ran out of popcorn. Nice to see some fireworks around here.

Three things everyone should take from this thread:

JL builds good product.

PG builds good product.

Bashing audio products without even seeing, listening or testing them is not cool.

X10!!

[dedlyjedly]

You have asked some good questions here Randy, and I appreciate the added insight we can all gain by discussing the topic at hand. I too wanted to hear the answers to several questions you posed directly to MW3. His response to your distortion question was given straight away, and yet you choose to ignore it and even go so far as to attempt to disparage his good reputation here by claiming he gave you "misleading" specs. It was clearly stated that the lower THD specs that were presented were "BASELINE THD..." A few posts later he went on to show you how your beloved M100 was rated in the exact same manner and that the specs provided for both amps included two different scales; dynamic and rms power ratings. The only difference, and this is what I truly find ironic, is that the by using the dynamic numbers in their model number scheme they are now being much more accurate and truthful about the real world performance than they ever were on your good ol' m series amps. It's true! As Stipud mentioned, even though you felt like you got "more than you paid for" the old methods of underrating amps were far more misleading than their current practices. And just to head you off at the pass, PG's dynamic ratings are vastly different from the blatant misrepresentations you'll find on lower tier products that utilize "peak power" ratings.

As far as the country of origin of manufactured goods it has been pointed out that your representing your opinions and years of accumulated misinformation as facts. I too can appreciate the "moral" implications, as you put it, of purchasing products manufactured stateside. Unfortunately it doesn't prove cost effective in many specialized industries such as amplifier manufacturing due to numerous competitive advantages many Asian countries employ. This holds true for a company you and I both hold in high regard, JL Audio. One thing I really like about JL is that they clearly and accurately state the country of origin on the package of every product. Very few, if any, of their amps are manufactured or assembled in Florida. I think it's obvious that I don't feel that comment in any way reflects negatively on JL, I simply wanted to fill you in on the fact that great companies can and do make great amps in Asia. FYI, most of what they do here in the U.S. is speaker and subwoofer related.

I could understand how you might feel bombarded by cult followers and PG employees alike, but I can only refer you back to the original post. You might have overlooked it, but there is a link to an impartial and unbiased review by someone who is far more qualified and equipped than any one of us to truly assess the specs and their bearing on real world performance. It was a good read and I highly recommend it!

Thanks again for the info Morgan! I didn't even know you were an engineer!

[eulogious]

I also just want to point out that I have nothing against you randy So please don't take what I said personal or anything. I don't want to add to the "bashing" on you at all. Just pointing out how I feel, so keep in mind my above post is just my opinion as well. Like I said, opinions are like assholes...

I like the good debates that go on on this forum! Usually very good points are brought up and addressed, and this "debate" is no different. I just wanted to throw that in!

[MW3]

Thanks again for the info Morgan! I didn't even know you were an engineer!

Anytime, happy I can shed some light on things from time to time.

I am not an Engineer, more of a hard core product guy that has been lucky to learn a lot over the years from some really smart guys that designed some really cool stuff.

[Eric D]

Randy, if you are honestly considering the JL HD series, you really have no right to be in any argument here in this thread.

How can you complain about THD levels on these amps in one hand, while in the other think a full range Class D amp will have lower distortion levels than your M series amps from 15 years ago?

Full range Class D may become the future, but is is worlds behind the simplistic design of an M series amp. You will gain a ton more power at the expense of clean output.

The HD series has a pretty low distortion rate, <.03%. The S/N ratio is high and the footprint is small. Since small size is important this time, it greatly narrowed the options. Keep in mind the THD rate of the Ti1500 is 33 times higher. The rate for the old M series was .007% (I think), so the HD has 5 times the THD rate, which is much better than most new amps on the market.

Trust me, if I could fit my M44 and M100 under my driver seat I would.

I think you totally missed my point. The M44 and M100 can drive your component speakers, the Ti1500 cannot. Even if the Ti has 33 times the distortion, you won't hear it on a subwoofer. All the JL HD amps are full range, and you can use them on components. But, are you telling me you actually believe the JL posted specifications on these amps?

Do you know the difference between Class A/B, and Full Range Class D? If so, you would not be making points about the THD specs on any of these amps. There is simply no way the JL can sound better than an old M series, or one of the new PG Ti amps, due to the limitations of its technology. However, I don't think you or I, or anyone else for that matter would actually hear these differences. But, I have never owned, tested, or even seen a JL HD amp, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

[randy8876]

First off, what is "baseline THD"?

Don't believe me or the other guy. Download the manuals. The M100 has .02% THD at rated power. Now he may have posted other dishonest numbers, but that was the rating. Surprisingly I couldn't find 1% listed in the manual.

No where in the Ti1500.1 manual could I find a rating of .02% THD. People are quick to say JL is lieing, that .03% isn't possible. Yet his claim .02%(that isn't even listed in the manual) is blindly accepted.

You want to reference statistics and manipulation? The guy throws out a lot of numbers that can easily be debunked, and then tries to back track posting more lies.

The other guy makes up a story about a guy moving to China to supervise Korean production, since they know some people blindly accept it. He neglects to mention the guy is Chinese and has lived there before. Or that he actually lives in Hong Kong, which is a giant business hub for most Asian manufacturing. Yet, he does say that it doesn't matter where the company is, since it gets routine visits (if that's the case why did someone move to China?). The fact is he posted this info to mislead and lie, it's his job as a salesman. If the info doesn't matter- then why did he ever bring it up?

I read the report and clearly understood it was an independent test. And it showed this was just another average 1% distortion high power amp. The ratings are legit, but I don't see how people can read it and say "Wow, they are making really great amplifiers!!". I'd say "Well, it looks like their making amps again. Hopefully they can earn enough to make top notch stuff again some day"

And where did this idea come from that only good things can be said if you've never heard the amp? The SALESMEN are quick to tell me not to make judgement based on an independent review, yet they don't shut down the fluffers that talk so highly of products they've never heard?

I didn't say the amp was garbage. But I've definitely grown to not trust these two SALESMEN. And if you can't figure out why a PG SALESMAN would post misleading information than I know some used car salesmen that would love to meet you.

I'm sure I'll be given more reasons why they don't have to answer my questions. But if a salesman brings up an idea, then he better be damn willing to defend his statement. The claims on distortion to me were outright lies.

Here's an M100 manual:
http://safemanuals.com/user-guide-instr ... LD/M100-_E

Here's the Ti1500.1 manual:
http://www.phoenixgold.com/productDetai ... tegoryID=1


And does PG have an Engineer for oversight in Korea? Almost every overseas manufacturing operation has an engineer onsite(contrary to what was posted). Yet if the best PG could do was have someone live on the same continent I'd say there is a massive lack of QA in the manufacturing process.

[eulogious]

*sigh* It just keeps going, and going, and going...

Thanks for proving my point on the statistics, since you just used them again to your "advantage", just like everyone else has. That was my WHOLE point. It's just numbers. I don't think anyone was lying, it's just numbers. If I really cared enough I could throw some numbers at you with a bunch of "science" behind it and probably it would make sense. Wouldn't prove a damn thing, but I could argue something and make it make sense. Remember there are people that mess with these numbers to confuse people like you and I and get paid ALOT to do that. That's why I say your ears are the only true test. Numbers mean nothing to me when I am driving down the road listening to my music. I could care less what the THD is, it just sounds good, and that's what I buy. If you want to play the numbers game, go ahead, but it's really pointless when it comes to audio and people's opinions on what sounds good.

You then say that you don't trust these two guys? What else have they done beside try to play your number games with you and try to make you like PG again? I don't see how they lied and are untrustworthy. Now you are just taking this all to personal and pointing fingers and calling names. Kinda goes against the spirit of this debate IMHO

With that, I can not say anything that will add to this "debate" anymore and since you are obviously closed minded I will put my effort into better things than trying to convince you of anything relating to this.

No hard feelings, eulogious out!

[randy8876]

You then say that you don't trust these two guys? What else have they done beside try to play your number games with you and try to make you like PG again? I don't see how they lied and are untrustworthy. Now you are just taking this all to personal and pointing fingers and calling names. Kinda goes against the spirit of this debate

All they had to do was answer questions honestly.
The THD statements were an outright lie. While some people will tolerate and accept dishonest business practices, I'm not one of them. Granted I've been out of the US for a couple years, but have standards really fallen this low?

I'm not even sure how using the data that PG provides is "playing a numbers game".

The other guy chimes in with not applicable BS, then back tracks and refuses to answer questions about it.

You're right they are trying to make people like PG again, but their not using a very honest campaign here. They are PR/salesmen types. They only want you to think a certain way, and not ask questions. The few I asked ended up with a run around of answers.

[eulogious]

You then say that you don't trust these two guys? What else have they done beside try to play your number games with you and try to make you like PG again? I don't see how they lied and are untrustworthy. Now you are just taking this all to personal and pointing fingers and calling names. Kinda goes against the spirit of this debate

All they had to do was answer questions honestly.
The THD statements were an outright lie. While some people will tolerate and accept dishonest business practices, I'm not one of them. Granted I've been out of the US for a couple years, but have standards really fallen this low?

I'm not even sure how using the data that PG provides is "playing a numbers game".

The other guy chimes in with not applicable BS, then back tracks and refuses to answer questions about it.

You're right they are trying to make people like PG again, but their not using a very honest campaign here. They are PR/salesmen types. They only want you to think a certain way, and not ask questions. The few I asked ended up with a run around of answers.

Ok I lied, one more thing

I can't argue your opinion on Morgan and Zak. If you feel your questions weren't answered, I am sorry for that. I thought they answered them well, but that's just me, not you. So I don't want to argue that. If you feel they lied, then that's how you feel, and that sucks you feel that way, and I can't argue you with on that point.

I also can't argue with you about salesmen and how they usually work. You are right, most of the time salesmen suck. I don't think Morgan and Zak suck, but again that's just me!

It sounds like you have some knowledge randy and it would be cool if you stayed around. Don't let this "heated" argument throw you off about what this site and forum is all about, PG stuff, new and old! You are very passionate about old school PG, so I think you would fit in well, so please don't get all pissy at people here, we are just as passionate about this stuff as you, so that should unite us all! *warm fuzzy's for everyone*

[dwnrodeo]

I think you totally missed my point. The M44 and M100 can drive your component speakers, the Ti1500 cannot. Even if the Ti has 33 times the distortion, you won't hear it on a subwoofer. All the JL HD amps are full range, and you can use them on components. But, are you telling me you actually believe the JL posted specifications on these amps?

Do you know the difference between Class A/B, and Full Range Class D? If so, you would not be making points about the THD specs on any of these amps. There is simply no way the JL can sound better than an old M series, or one of the new PG Ti amps, due to the limitations of its technology. However, I don't think you or I, or anyone else for that matter would actually hear these differences. But, I have never owned, tested, or even seen a JL HD amp, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

randy8876
If you're worried about 1% vs .02% THD on a class D monoblock amplifier that's putting out 1250 watts then obviously this amp isn't marketed or produced for you. That's the same as saying your 1,000 hp monster truck isn't good because it only gets 300 yards to the gallon. Yes, PG is rating their amplifiers differently and not underrating their power like in the past. Yes, the power ratings claimed is at a higher distortion level. But if you think about it, if old PG underrated their amps power claims then of course they will get a lower distortion. Turn up the power to what the amp actually makes and you'll probably be at 1% THD also.

Thank you Eric! If you compare apples to apples, say the new Ti600.4 (consider the 600.4 as a two channel since PG has no two channel amps) to the M100. The 600.4 will make 240 watts bridged into two channels at 14.4 volts with < or = 1% THD. The M100 will make 160 watts bridged into two channels at 13.8 volts with .02% THD. Now in the M100 manual it states that the M100 "THD is at rated power into 4 ohms". So, if PG decided to underrate their new amps instead of the CEA standards (which everyone uses) and said that the 600.4 was really a 300.4, then what do you think the THD of that same amplifier did at a lower wattage? What do you think the 600.4 THD would be at 160 watts bridged into two channels? Probably less than 1% right? Also the M100 manual states that "Total Dynamic Power = 1001 watts" What THD do you think that was at? I have an old Pioneer amp that is rated at 0.0015% THD. But that was at 10 watts and at 1khz. Basically to sum it up, if you don't want 1% THD, don't turn up the gains or volume to get 1% THD.

[randy8876]

Thank you Eric! If you compare apples to apples, say the new Ti600.4 (consider the 600.4 as a two channel since PG has no two channel amps) to the M100. The 600.4 will make 240 watts bridged into two channels at 14.4 volts with < or = 1% THD. The M100 will make 160 watts bridged into two channels at 13.8 volts with .02% THD. Now in the M100 manual it states that the M100 "THD is at rated power into 4 ohms". So, if PG decided to underrate their new amps instead of the CEA standards (which everyone uses) and said that the 600.4 was really a 300.4, then what do you think the THD of that same amplifier did at a lower wattage? What do you think the 600.4 THD would be at 160 watts bridged into two channels? Probably less than 1% right? Also the M100 manual states that "Total Dynamic Power = 1001 watts" What THD do you think that was at?

First off, everyone doesn't use it. Numerous companies still use other THD ratings. Alpine, JL, Pioneer, just to name a few. It appears the premium lines they use varies THD numbers, yet the mass produced lower end lines go with the 1% rating. But that's just a quick guess from a 5 minute search.
Maybe PG could go so far as to include 2-3 ratings. Power at .05%THD, .5%THD and 1%THD.
I couldn't even guess what the power was from this amp at .02%THD. It's a difference of 5000%- so it could be a pretty massive drop in power.

To try to revive this line as a premium line and not just some mass produced garbage that lives off great advertising and its roots reputation the specs might need to reflect that it truly is top notch and not just average. But the test showed just an average 1500w amp.


I'd still like to know where the guys pulled his mystical numbers from. He said:

Randy,
Baseline THD for the Ti800.4 and Ti600.4 ranges from .002% to .005%. Ti2500.1 and Ti1500.1 are around .02% due to the class D design.

What is baseline? Is that with the amp turned on, but no signal from the RCA? These numbers he listed aren't in the manuals provided by PG. In fact the manuals rate these amps all at 1% THD. 50 times his claim for the mono amps and 200-500 times his claim for the multi channel ones.