PHOENIX GOLD TI-2500.1 MONOBLOCK AMP

[HiloDB1]

I think some of you guys may be missing the fact that the PG is truly a "custom" design.

Love it or hate it, the Ti2500 for example is a custom one of a kind amp made for PG, and PG only. You may find similar amps out there, but you won't find one with the same circuit, same board layout, etc, in the same chassis.

With these other companies like Sundown for example, they just repackage a common amp design everyone else like them uses. Economies of scale allow them to do this at a much lower cost as no research, engineering, or in many cases even testing is required to get a product to market.

However, what you miss out on is often real performance.

I tested a Lanzar amp several years ago, which used the same board as many other cheap SPL amps did at the time, and many today even still use this old board. The amp was plenty loud, I cannot deny that, and it had the numbers to back it up. However, its weak point was lack of control. No matter what I did with it the bass was always very muddy compared to much less powerful but more reputable amps out there.

Having never heard or tested the Ti2500, I really can't say for certain it is a great amp, but PGs recent track record gives me plenty of confidence. The S1000.1 is just fine, and my own X600.1 sounded great (when it worked).

If someone gave me $1000 right now and told me to buy a bass amp, but it cannot be PG, the first on my list would be the JL 750HD, followed shortly by RF with maybe a Power T10001bd, or slightly larger depending on cost, then on to something more esoteric like Zapco, or Arc, or Tru, assuming they have something mono in that range. The amps you guys have mentioned would not have even been a consideration at any cost no matter how cheap they can be. Hell, I would give a Zuki mono amp a shot any day over these other amps.

You want to say they are cheap SPL amps? Do you even know the amount of R&D Jacob at Sundown does before production of his amps? You may have done a couple of google searches but didnt do your homework well. There is nothing special about the new PG the PG of old I would pay the price for but the new offerings are overpriced BS. Also the naming of the amp is more "Flea market" then any of the companies Ive mentioned. Only fake fleamarket amps would name their amps base on "peak" or "dynamic" power like Thump, Pyramid, Pyle.

[Eric D]

Between my last post and now I have been searching eBay for different audio brands.

Now, I understand quantity on eBay is by no means any measure of quality, but it is indeed a measure of popularity.

-Audioque got me two stickers, and one subwoofer...
-Sundown Audio got just over one page...
-Crescendo Audio nothing at all...
-DC Audio got nothing as well...

Now I am not the guy who always wants to be "trendy", but I like to at least buy something with some sort of customer base. Think HD DVD for a moment. Sure you can pick one up cheap now, but does that mean it is a good choice?

-Digital Designs, American Bass, and Treo all had just one page of hits...

Now for more of what I consider mainstream...

-JL Audio gets you 7+ pages
-RF gets you 7+ pages
-Orion gets you 7+ pages
-PPI gets you 7+ pages
-Soundstream gets you 7+ pages

If you setup a system with these brands, and built everything into the car nice and professionally, you have their market share to fall back on. If an amp fails next year, you can probably replace it after doing a little searching on eBay, and not have to take the whole install apart, then change your whole theme, just because your no name amp let you down, and you can't replace it.

[Eric D]

I think some of you guys may be missing the fact that the PG is truly a "custom" design.

Love it or hate it, the Ti2500 for example is a custom one of a kind amp made for PG, and PG only. You may find similar amps out there, but you won't find one with the same circuit, same board layout, etc, in the same chassis.

With these other companies like Sundown for example, they just repackage a common amp design everyone else like them uses. Economies of scale allow them to do this at a much lower cost as no research, engineering, or in many cases even testing is required to get a product to market.

However, what you miss out on is often real performance.

I tested a Lanzar amp several years ago, which used the same board as many other cheap SPL amps did at the time, and many today even still use this old board. The amp was plenty loud, I cannot deny that, and it had the numbers to back it up. However, its weak point was lack of control. No matter what I did with it the bass was always very muddy compared to much less powerful but more reputable amps out there.

Having never heard or tested the Ti2500, I really can't say for certain it is a great amp, but PGs recent track record gives me plenty of confidence. The S1000.1 is just fine, and my own X600.1 sounded great (when it worked).

If someone gave me $1000 right now and told me to buy a bass amp, but it cannot be PG, the first on my list would be the JL 750HD, followed shortly by RF with maybe a Power T10001bd, or slightly larger depending on cost, then on to something more esoteric like Zapco, or Arc, or Tru, assuming they have something mono in that range. The amps you guys have mentioned would not have even been a consideration at any cost no matter how cheap they can be. Hell, I would give a Zuki mono amp a shot any day over these other amps.

You want to say they are cheap SPL amps? Do you even know the amount of R&D Jacob at Sundown does before production of his amps? You may have done a couple of google searches but didnt do your homework well. There is nothing special about the new PG the PG of old I would pay the price for but the new offerings are overpriced BS. Also the naming of the amp is more "Flea market" then any of the companies Ive mentioned. Only fake fleamarket amps would name their amps base on "peak" or "dynamic" power like Thump, Pyramid, Pyle.

Well, not to change the subject, but you have got me wondering an even greater question than anything else in this thread after this post...

Why are you on the PG forum then, if you don't really care for PG? There is nothing magical about the old PG products. The real difference is only where they are made, and the physical looks of each model lineup. A brand new, made in Asia Ti800.4 set for say 20V RMS output will sound IDENTICAL to an older MS, or ZX amp from PG also set for 20V RMS. Does it really matter to you that the ZX450 for example be rated at 15W or something like they did back then, and the Ti800.4 is rated for 500Wx4 at 10% distortion, when the moon is half aligned with the sun?

[HiloDB1]

Well, not to change the subject, but you have got me wondering an even greater question than anything else in this thread after this post...

Why are you on the PG forum then, if you don't really care for PG? There is nothing magical about the old PG products. The real difference is only where they are made, and the physical looks of each model lineup. A brand new, made in Asia Ti800.4 set for say 20V RMS output will sound IDENTICAL to an older MS, or ZX amp from PG also set for 20V RMS. Does it really matter to you that the ZX450 for example be rated at 15W or something like they did back then, and the Ti800.4 is rated for 500Wx4 at 10% distortion, when the moon is half aligned with the sun?

When and where did I say I dont care for PG? I said the new PG is overpriced for what it is.

[Eric D]

Well, not to change the subject, but you have got me wondering an even greater question than anything else in this thread after this post...

Why are you on the PG forum then, if you don't really care for PG? There is nothing magical about the old PG products. The real difference is only where they are made, and the physical looks of each model lineup. A brand new, made in Asia Ti800.4 set for say 20V RMS output will sound IDENTICAL to an older MS, or ZX amp from PG also set for 20V RMS. Does it really matter to you that the ZX450 for example be rated at 15W or something like they did back then, and the Ti800.4 is rated for 500Wx4 at 10% distortion, when the moon is half aligned with the sun?

When and where did I say I dont care for PG? I said the new PG is overpriced for what it is.

I believe right here...

There is nothing special about the new PG the PG of old I would pay the price for but the new offerings are overpriced BS. Also the naming of the amp is more "Flea market" then any of the companies Ive mentioned. Only fake fleamarket amps would name their amps base on "peak" or "dynamic" power like Thump, Pyramid, Pyle.

That does not really convey a warm and fuzzy feeling for PG if you ask me.

[HiloDB1]

Again I didnt say I dont like PG I said it was overpriced. And my statement was about their naming of the amp. I wouldnt have mentioned it if they actually named it Ti1650.1 or something instead of misleading people into thinking its a 2500watt amp when it obviously is no. Maybe your reading comprehension and personal feeling need to be separated? I own PG items and have nothing against them. The older PG stuff was more unique and with all their limited production items made PG a more sought after product. Again the newer PG seems to be just overpriced products and they are using PG's reputation to justify the cost.

[Eric D]

I really hope I am not offending you (or anyone else for that matter), I just tend to get frustrated, as there always seems to be "new PG haters" with very limited talking points. Hating the new PG just for the sake of it, really makes little sense to me.

In your specific case you say you like the old PG, but not the new. Well, the new performs the same, but is made in Asia. Well, many of the amps (if not all) that you mention you think are good are made in Asia, so I can't see how you would have anything against PG making their products in Asia. You then claim you don't care for the model numbers on the amps, but at least a few amps in PG's past were named the same or similarly. One which comes to my mind is the MPS2500, what does its name even mean if anything?

Back when PG came out with the Xenon, they took a lot of flak for it, and I was also one of the haters. Well, I tried one, and then another, and ended up owning a few. I still don't love the Xenon, but they are not all that bad. They actually seem to get more popular as time wears on, and more people here talk about them as being before PG went downhill.

Same thing goes for Rsd. They were the new junk amps in everyone's mind, yet, now they are fine to most people.

Well, sadly, I am old enough to remember examples like this from even earlier times. When PG launched Tantrum, they took some flak from dealers, like the dealer I worked for. No one really cared for them or thought they were a legit PG product. Today, some people specifically collect Tantrum amps, and they are just fine.

Go back a bit more in time and you have the M series. If you compare an M amp to a MS directly, they are junk. The reality is quite different. A TON of people love the M amps, and I am one of them. I like the M amps more than the MS. But, I remember people thinking the M amps were a "watered down" MS, and were not good for anything.

If we have this discussion in 10 more years, there is a chance the new Ti amps will be seen differently than they are today.

[Stryker]

I'm just gonna stick with my original post. I do think the Ti2500 is overpriced.
It does not do rated power, possibly peak.... but whatever.
I do know that my RSd 1200.1's do more, yes more @ 2ohm's than rated power. Not a shit ton but certainly nothing to sneeze at,
as I had them both clamped at a comp this past weekend. thats RMS not peak .

[ttocs]

pg has never been an entry level amp company by any means. The xs and saphire line were still solid performers considering that they were pg's entry level. It has always been an elite brand in car audio and has always been price as such. Hell how much was an M25 or M50 and what was their output? I too liked the days when they would hand you an amp rated at 37 watts and a big grin that would easily do 2x that much when ran correctly, but that is not the way the market works today and they have to change with the market. Again I will need to hear it first, and that means more then just in a sound room as the sound room rarely shows what the stuff really sounds like and if it takes a long long time till I hear one then so be it.....

[Eric D]

I guess one more point I should have added is I think it all boils down to LE (limited editions).

The MS have the Frank, Son, and MS1000

If not for the Outlaw, Bandit, or the Route 66, I really think everyone would have hated the M series and they would have went down as being junk. When someone mentions the M series, the first thing which comes to my mind is the Outlaw.

ZX has the Reactor, which is my all time favorite, and I have owned 4 of these amps over the years.

Ti has the Octane, and it too is a statement of the Ti lineup.

Xenon does not have anything, but Rsd has the Roadster, and it will likely be seen positive in history.

If PG builds a genuinely unique limited edition off of the new Ti platform, it will, IMO, change the whole outlook on the lineup. It has to be something impressive though to really draw attention.

[HiloDB1]

I really hope I am not offending you (or anyone else for that matter), I just tend to get frustrated, as there always seems to be "new PG haters" with very limited talking points. Hating the new PG just for the sake of it, really makes little sense to me.

In your specific case you say you like the old PG, but not the new. Well, the new performs the same, but is made in Asia. Well, many of the amps (if not all) that you mention you think are good are made in Asia, so I can't see how you would have anything against PG making their products in Asia. You then claim you don't care for the model numbers on the amps, but at least a few amps in PG's past were named the same or similarly. One which comes to my mind is the MPS2500, what does its name even mean if anything?

Back when PG came out with the Xenon, they took a lot of flak for it, and I was also one of the haters. Well, I tried one, and then another, and ended up owning a few. I still don't love the Xenon, but they are not all that bad. They actually seem to get more popular as time wears on, and more people here talk about them as being before PG went downhill.

Same thing goes for Rsd. They were the new junk amps in everyone's mind, yet, now they are fine to most people.

Well, sadly, I am old enough to remember examples like this from even earlier times. When PG launched Tantrum, they took some flak from dealers, like the dealer I worked for. No one really cared for them or thought they were a legit PG product. Today, some people specifically collect Tantrum amps, and they are just fine.

Go back a bit more in time and you have the M series. If you compare an M amp to a MS directly, they are junk. The reality is quite different. A TON of people love the M amps, and I am one of them. I like the M amps more than the MS. But, I remember people thinking the M amps were a "watered down" MS, and were not good for anything.

If we have this discussion in 10 more years, there is a chance the new Ti amps will be seen differently than they are today.

Yes some of what you said is true. But again I still say and feel the new Ti amps are overpriced. And as you stated they are made in Asia where the amps that I mentioned are also made. So why is it that you automatically think they are junk compared to PG when they are also made in Asia? And the amps I mentioned make more power for less money and perform better (this is where Im getting my PG is overpriced in case you haven't figure it out). As for the model numbers a naming system that means nothing or has nothing to do with rated power it better then a model number in which they purposely try to mislead you to think its something its not.

[ttocs]

will those amps last 10-20 yrs? will anyone want to keep them around for that long?

[HiloDB1]

will those amps last 10-20 yrs? will anyone want to keep them around for that long?

The amps will last. Sundown has been proven to be very stout amps. As for lasting 10-20 years how many PG amps will work out of the box from 20 years ago without needing parts changed like caps? Shoot I have an old Optimus Radio Shack amp that still works from 1996 (it even was submerged under water) so does that put it on the same level as PG?

[Eric D]

I don't care so much that the other amps mentioned are made in Asia. What I do care about is they use a common off the shelf circuit board, with nothing original about them, and performance to match.

If you do an A/B comparison between a generic board amp, and a PG for example, the difference will become pretty apparent.

There is a whole segment of the car audio SQ populous still unwilling to make the change to Class D amps and their variations for this reason. To them Class A/B offers better woofer control, and noticeably better sound. Well, several manufacturers have put a lot of effort in this area to try and bridge the gap. Rockford started the effort with Class bd. PG tried the Tripath design in the old Tantrum mono amp.

I have not heard the new JL HD amps, but I have heard a ton about them, and from what I here they are close to being indistinguishable from a Class A/B design. But, I will have to hear this for myself.

All I know is the generic budget SPL amps have SQ as the least on their list of priorities. To a lot of people (myself included) they sound muddy and unnatural.

I personally prefer the MS2250 for example, but I just don't like having to invest so much in the electrical system to keep such an inefficient beast fed. I am excited to make the change to new switch mode amps, but only as long as they sound good to me.

[Eric D]

will those amps last 10-20 yrs? will anyone want to keep them around for that long?

The amps will last. Sundown has been proven to be very stout amps. As for lasting 10-20 years how many PG amps will work out of the box from 20 years ago without needing parts changed like caps? Shoot I have an old Optimus Radio Shack amp that still works from 1996 (it even was submerged under water) so does that put it on the same level as PG?

PG is a very unique example. They happened to use a bad cap in their design and it took several years to crop up. If you buy a used PG Sapphire amp, or an old XS, they don't have the cap issues and work just fine. I have some old RF amps from the 80s which are all original and they work just fine as well. No leaking caps to be found. Same for old PPI, Soundstream, the list goes on and on. PG just bought from the wrong supplier, and collectors now pay the price. Their failures have nothing to do with the amp's design.

[HiloDB1]

I don't care so much that the other amps mentioned are made in Asia. What I do care about is they use a common off the shelf circuit board, with nothing original about them, and performance to match.

If you do an A/B comparison between a generic board amp, and a PG for example, the difference will become pretty apparent.

There is a whole segment of the car audio SQ populous still unwilling to make the change to Class D amps and their variations for this reason. To them Class A/B offers better woofer control, and noticeably better sound. Well, several manufacturers have put a lot of effort in this area to try and bridge the gap. Rockford started the effort with Class bd. PG tried the Tripath design in the old Tantrum mono amp.

I have not heard the new JL HD amps, but I have heard a ton about them, and from what I here they are close to being indistinguishable from a Class A/B design. But, I will have to hear this for myself.

All I know is the generic budget SPL amps have SQ as the least on their list of priorities. To a lot of people (myself included) they sound muddy and unnatural.

I personally prefer the MS2250 for example, but I just don't like having to invest so much in the electrical system to keep such an inefficient beast fed. I am excited to make the change to new switch mode amps, but only as long as they sound good to me.

True but circuit board layout and design only account for part of the big picture. A common PCB can perform worlds apart based on the components selected and used in the final product. Just as a great well though out PCB can sound like complete garbage with cheap components. I have my reference high power amp that I can compare any of these other amps too. If I did a blind test between my reference amp, the new Ti or any of the other amps mentioned I doubt 90% of the people on earth would be able to tell the difference. So again where is the value or justification in price for the new Ti?

[Eric D]

Shockingly, I think cheap components are just fine. If an amp is designed properly, the inabilities of cheap parts are negated. This is only to a point though. Cheap pots for example will break down and get scratchy, no amount of amp design can make up for that. The value and justification for the price on the new Ti will likely become apparent 5 years or so from now when an $800 Ti2500 is still selling for $400 in good condition.

Now, cosmetic opinions are not worth much, especially mine, but I would be embarrassed to have a Sundown amp in my install. To me, the amp's cosmetics are part of the value. I don't really care for the Ti a whole lot, but at least I can work with it, and make an install blend using them. The Sundown for example is just a plain block of aluminum, with no real class. I don't want a flashy amp either, just something with some clean lines, and iconic styling. Take an old Soundstream reference amp for example. Very simple, yet very effective. Or JL's modern amps, with their clean lines, and especially clean finishes and textures.

[HiloDB1]

Yes good design to a point. Again still dont see the cost justification of the amp but that is just IMHO. As for looks I like plane and simple nothing fancy works for me. So a Sundown amp can work in almost any install and is simple to paint to help it blend in. I personally would have loved to use the PG Ti2500.1 (would have complimented the two Ti12D's I have sitting) in my upcoming install if it made 2500watts RMS, but for the price Ill look elsewhere or use something already in my collection.

[lowblueranger]

I'll just stick with my RF T2500-2 and T600-2 for my daily driver they both perform very well. But I also love my old Rf, PPi, and especially the PG outlaw,Rt66!!!!!!

[dedlyjedly]

Do you even know the amount of R&D Jacob at Sundown does before production of his amps?

Do You? I do recall that he was a fairly active member here (or on SoundBuggy) for a very brief amount of time. This was just prior to Jacob starting up Sundown Audio and he was picking our brains for ideas and constructive criticism on some of his preliminary stuff.

I'm not going to go out on a limb to defend the PG in this case, and I can certainly understand your reservations with the power ratings/model numbers, but I really think you're comparing apples to oranges here.

While the inexperienced can certainly become frustrated with the peak vs. rms power dilemma, I see far more self-proclaimed "semi-pros" fall victim to another sort of marketing hype....the hype that the only distinguishing characteristic of a quality amp is how many thousands and thousands of "true rms" watts it provides.

[HiloDB1]

Do you even know the amount of R&D Jacob at Sundown does before production of his amps?

Do You? I do recall that he was a fairly active member here (or on SoundBuggy) for a very brief amount of time. This was just prior to Jacob starting up Sundown Audio and he was picking our brains for ideas and constructive criticism on some of his preliminary stuff.

I'm not going to go out on a limb to defend the PG in this case, and I can certainly understand your reservations with the power ratings/model numbers, but I really think you're comparing apples to oranges here.

While the inexperienced can certainly become frustrated with the peak vs. rms power dilemma, I see far more self-proclaimed "semi-pros" fall victim to another sort of marketing hype....the hype that the only distinguishing characteristic of a quality amp is how many thousands and thousands of "true rms" watts it provides.

Yes I do have a decent idea of how much R&D he does. He goes through many versions before production changing components and taking measurements. Making sure what he sells is up to snuff. Thats why so many love his products. It has nothing to do with just how many thousands of watts the amp can produce. Lets take a 1500 watt amp like the Sundown SAZ1500 for example. Look at the specs vs the Ti2500, both are very similar in ratings. Yet the SAZ1500 is several hundred less. It has nothing to do with hype all Im saying is where is the value there ? I may also make note that many may think Im a Sundown nuthugger but in all actuality I do not run any of their products. Ive owned and have more PG stuff then Ive ever had of Sundown. Im just using them as an example here.

[ttocs]

the value comes in the history that pg amps can and will stand the test of time and hold their value much much better then most amps I have ever dealt with.

[Eric D]

What if the Ti2500.1 sounds a lot better than the SAZ1500? To me that adds a lot of "value". Especially so if the SAZ1500 sounds bad enough it is downright frustrating (I have heard plenty of Class Ds which are awful sounding).

I feel it is a safe assumption that the Ti2500.1 will sound better, given PGs track record. Sundown in this comparison has no track record. One or two good years of products is a great start, but it pales in comparison to 25 years of making great products.

[shawn k]

Guys! This is horrrible!

There's an awefull lot of speculation going on here from BOTH sides of the fence, although I tend to share HiloDB1's views on this. I find it amusing that neither side has actually tested/auditioned/listened to both/all (or even just ONE) of the amps in question yet people are still trying to compare them!!!

This is completely rediculous considering some of the people debating here are the same people that BUST BALLS when others speculate!

[Eric D]

Fine, I concede, you guys win...

The Ti2500.1 is a horrible waste of money, and no one should ever buy one...