PHOENIX GOLD TI-2500.1 MONOBLOCK AMP

[ttocs]

agreed, cheaper is ALWAYS better.

honestly in car audio I have always believed you get what you pay for and the good/fast/cheap pick 2 theory works here too.

[dwnrodeo]

Between my last post and now I have been searching eBay for different audio brands.

Now, I understand quantity on eBay is by no means any measure of quality, but it is indeed a measure of popularity.

-Audioque got me two stickers, and one subwoofer...
-Sundown Audio got just over one page...
-Crescendo Audio nothing at all...
-DC Audio got nothing as well...

Now I am not the guy who always wants to be "trendy", but I like to at least buy something with some sort of customer base. Think HD DVD for a moment. Sure you can pick one up cheap now, but does that mean it is a good choice?

-Digital Designs, American Bass, and Treo all had just one page of hits...

Now for more of what I consider mainstream...

-JL Audio gets you 7+ pages
-RF gets you 7+ pages
-Orion gets you 7+ pages
-PPI gets you 7+ pages
-Soundstream gets you 7+ pages

If you setup a system with these brands, and built everything into the car nice and professionally, you have their market share to fall back on. If an amp fails next year, you can probably replace it after doing a little searching on eBay, and not have to take the whole install apart, then change your whole theme, just because your no name amp let you down, and you can't replace it.

This isn't really a good measure of quality or reliability. Take SSA for example. Do a ebay search on them and let me know how many pages you get back on their products. Probably one if any, yet I find their products of good quality, and a member on here might even be co-owner of the company and is extremely helpful whenever I've had questions about products. What about Lamborghini? Chevrolet has more ebay pages, are they better?

I'm not taking sides here, just illustrating what shawn k already mentioned. Nobody has A/B'd Sundown and PG's new amp and all this is speculation. The PG is more expensive dollar for watt compared to Sundown, cool, don't buy it. Sundown is cheaper dollar for watt and "POTENTIONALLY" may not sound as good, cool, don't buy it. There. Discussion over.

[lowblueranger]

I ran a Sundown saz3500d last year for SPL comps and it was .5ohm stable and got really loud. I have some of their subs too, but I wouldn't even start to compare then to compare them to Old school equipment, apples to oranges argument. I think the new RF amps sound great! I have not used new PG, but technology is better now so I'm sure it would sound good too. To each their own I guess.

[Eric D]

Between my last post and now I have been searching eBay for different audio brands.

Now, I understand quantity on eBay is by no means any measure of quality, but it is indeed a measure of popularity.

-Audioque got me two stickers, and one subwoofer...
-Sundown Audio got just over one page...
-Crescendo Audio nothing at all...
-DC Audio got nothing as well...

Now I am not the guy who always wants to be "trendy", but I like to at least buy something with some sort of customer base. Think HD DVD for a moment. Sure you can pick one up cheap now, but does that mean it is a good choice?

-Digital Designs, American Bass, and Treo all had just one page of hits...

Now for more of what I consider mainstream...

-JL Audio gets you 7+ pages
-RF gets you 7+ pages
-Orion gets you 7+ pages
-PPI gets you 7+ pages
-Soundstream gets you 7+ pages

If you setup a system with these brands, and built everything into the car nice and professionally, you have their market share to fall back on. If an amp fails next year, you can probably replace it after doing a little searching on eBay, and not have to take the whole install apart, then change your whole theme, just because your no name amp let you down, and you can't replace it.

This isn't really a good measure of quality or reliability. Take SSA for example. Do a ebay search on them and let me know how many pages you get back on their products. Probably one if any, yet I find their products of good quality, and a member on here might even be co-owner of the company and is extremely helpful whenever I've had questions about products. What about Lamborghini? Chevrolet has more ebay pages, are they better?

I'm not taking sides here, just illustrating what shawn k already mentioned. Nobody has A/B'd Sundown and PG's new amp and all this is speculation. The PG is more expensive dollar for watt compared to Sundown, cool, don't buy it. Sundown is cheaper dollar for watt and "POTENTIONALLY" may not sound as good, cool, don't buy it. There. Discussion over.

I think you might not have read my post, and are misquoting me here...

Now, I understand quantity on eBay is by no means any measure of quality, but it is indeed a measure of popularity.

I don't own a Lamborghini, so I can't say for certain, but I am pretty confident if I did own one, and there was an issue with it, I could take it back to the dealer I purchased it from and they would take care of me. I don't know where to buy Sundown amps (or many of these other amps mentioned in this thread), I don't know who will install them, and if I have a problem with them, what do I do, send it in? Support adds value in my mind, and I don't see any support with tiny companies who have no dealer base.

[Eric D]

Somewhere along the line I must be missing something...

Take three companies for example:

-Sinfoni
-PG
-Sundown Audio

Generally the larger a company is, the cheaper they can get stuff through volume, so they can undercut their competitors.

-Sundown is inexpensive, but a small company
-PG is large, and this debate is if they are expensive or not
-Sinfoni is small and very expensive

People are buying from all three. So where is the value, and where is the profit?

-Is Sinfoni ripping people off, or are their products a good value, since they may be hand made, or have a ton or R&D put into the designs or something else?
-Is PG ripping people off, since they can get the products at the lowest price, but charge more than others do?
-Is Sundown Audio not making any profit at all, or even selling their products at a loss?

I doubt Sundown Audio is operating at a loss, so my next guess is they are cutting something out to reduce costs and turn a profit?

[stipud]

I doubt Sundown Audio is operating at a loss, so my next guess is they are cutting something out to reduce costs and turn a profit?

No in house engineering. It's just typical asian built stuff.

[HiloDB1]

I don't own a Lamborghini, so I can't say for certain, but I am pretty confident if I did own one, and there was an issue with it, I could take it back to the dealer I purchased it from and they would take care of me. I don't know where to buy Sundown amps (or many of these other amps mentioned in this thread), I don't know who will install them, and if I have a problem with them, what do I do, send it in? Support adds value in my mind, and I don't see any support with tiny companies who have no dealer base.

Sundown has many brick and mortar dealers along with many reps in almost every state and around the world. They also sell on woofersetc.com and ssa etc.

[dwnrodeo]

I don't own a Lamborghini, so I can't say for certain, but I am pretty confident if I did own one, and there was an issue with it, I could take it back to the dealer I purchased it from and they would take care of me. I don't know where to buy Sundown amps (or many of these other amps mentioned in this thread), I don't know who will install them, and if I have a problem with them, what do I do, send it in? Support adds value in my mind, and I don't see any support with tiny companies who have no dealer base.

http://www.sundownaudio.com/index.php/dealers.html
http://www.sundownaudio.com/index.php/p ... ranty.html

[HiloDB1]

Eric D I have a simple hypothetical question to ask you. Since neither of us have heard both of these amps lets say I had both a Sundown Audio SAZ 1500D and a Phoenix Gold Ti 2500.1. Now lets say you were in my area and I did a blind listening test and swapped between the 2 amp without you knowing which is which. Now lets say you couldn't tell the difference between the two or heaven forbid chose the Sundown amp over the PG then what would you have to say?

[ttocs]

interesting hypothetical...

Oh, no wait sorry I had that backwards. Eric does alot of listening tests and is honest in his reports when doing a-b test so I am not sure what your point is.

[Eric D]

Eric D I have a simple hypothetical question to ask you. Since neither of us have heard both of these amps lets say I had both a Sundown Audio SAZ 1500D and a Phoenix Gold Ti 2500.1. Now lets say you were in my area and I did a blind listening test and swapped between the 2 amp without you knowing which is which. Now lets say you couldn't tell the difference between the two or heaven forbid chose the Sundown amp over the PG then what would you have to say?

That is a great question. My feelings on it would all depend on what I intend to do with the amplifier.

-If I wanted it for collecting, which is what I buy most amps for, I would not be all that interested, as I don't see the Sundown amp ever having any collector value.
-If I planned to install it, it would depend on the install...
-If the amp is to be seen in an installation, then I would still choose the PG, as the Sundown would take away from the appearance of my installation.
-If I had other amps intended to be the showpiece, then I would consider burying the Sundown in the installation so no one knew it was there, but I still got to make use of its better performance (assuming it is better).

Worst case if the Sundown were better, I would consider putting the guts of the Sundown into a chassis with some actual style. I did this before when I put an AudioControl processor inside a Punch 100 chassis to blend with an existing installation.

To me, how many watts the amp produces is not the sole measure of an amp's value.

[shawn k]

Somewhere along the line I must be missing something...

Take three companies for example:

-Sinfoni
-PG
-Sundown Audio

Generally the larger a company is, the cheaper they can get stuff through volume, so they can undercut their competitors.

-Sundown is inexpensive, but a small company
-PG is large, and this debate is if they are expensive or not
-Sinfoni is small and very expensive

People are buying from all three. So where is the value, and where is the profit?

-Is Sinfoni ripping people off, or are their products a good value, since they may be hand made, or have a ton or R&D put into the designs or something else?
-Is PG ripping people off, since they can get the products at the lowest price, but charge more than others do?
-Is Sundown Audio not making any profit at all, or even selling their products at a loss?

I doubt Sundown Audio is operating at a loss, so my next guess is they are cutting something out to reduce costs and turn a profit?

It's common for smaller businesses to have low overhead and or cutout the middleman (retail). Some take advantage of this and transfer the savings on to their customers by selling direct. It's also common for big "brand name" businesses to charge a premium for their product to simply stay in business due to their high overhead (much of it do to marketing ).

Value is in the eye of the beholder. For me, value means getting a lot (not necessarily the BEST) for paying little. I personally would not consider most high end gear to be of great value. Sinfoni, Audison Thesis, Arc SE etc... might be considered some of the best amps out there, but they are not the best value since you can get gear that's half the $$ yet performs 90% as well. Now as a true enthusiast, I would absolutely put "value" aside and pay a premium for that extra 10% of performance But that's just me and enthusiasts like me are not a large portion of the market. I've had the opportunity to play with some of the Sundown stuff as well as many other unfamiliar brands and can honestly say that it's good solid gear that is in my eyes a good value. It is every bit as reliable as the main stream stuff and costs less (comparitively speaking). Now what you DON'T get with these brands is that "middle man". So no, you cannot get install advice from a salesman, nor can you just bring it back to the store and swap it out if it does fail (but the same goes for the main stream stuff when purchasing it from ebay anyway right! )

So

-Just because a company is small or new with good prices for its gear, doesn't automatically mean it is cutting corners or short changing its customers

-Just because main stream gear is branded with a popular logo, doesn't automatically mean it's a good value.

-Just because an amp is designed and built in Asia and shares the same board as some others doesn't make it garbage or unreliable. Hell, even PG's "The ONE" is a shared design with a few other companies

[HiloDB1]

To me, how many watts the amp produces is not the sole measure of an amp's value.

This is my point as well. Its not just about how many watts it produces. But all things being equal (ie sound quality, build quality, power) but price which would provide the buyer greater value? Im not saying the PG amp is bad but again IMHO its not a value.

[HiloDB1]

interesting hypothetical...

Oh, no wait sorry I had that backwards. Eric does alot of listening tests and is honest in his reports when doing a-b test so I am not sure what your point is.

Its a hypothetical. In other words its a big "IF" and my point is IF we did a blind test and IF by chance he picked the Sundown product based on listening and not looks or brand or anything else what would be his final word.

What is the point of your post?

[Eric D]

Somewhere along the line I must be missing something...

Take three companies for example:

-Sinfoni
-PG
-Sundown Audio

Generally the larger a company is, the cheaper they can get stuff through volume, so they can undercut their competitors.

-Sundown is inexpensive, but a small company
-PG is large, and this debate is if they are expensive or not
-Sinfoni is small and very expensive

People are buying from all three. So where is the value, and where is the profit?

-Is Sinfoni ripping people off, or are their products a good value, since they may be hand made, or have a ton or R&D put into the designs or something else?
-Is PG ripping people off, since they can get the products at the lowest price, but charge more than others do?
-Is Sundown Audio not making any profit at all, or even selling their products at a loss?

I doubt Sundown Audio is operating at a loss, so my next guess is they are cutting something out to reduce costs and turn a profit?

It's common for smaller businesses to have low overhead and or cutout the middleman (retail). Some take advantage of this and transfer the savings on to their customers by selling direct. It's also common for big "brand name" businesses to charge a premium for their product to simply stay in business due to their high overhead (much of it do to marketing ).

Value is in the eye of the beholder. For me, value means getting a lot (not necessarily the BEST) for paying little. I personally would not consider most high end gear to be of great value. Sinfoni, Audison Thesis, Arc SE etc... might be considered some of the best amps out there, but they are not the best value since you can get gear that's half the $$ yet performs 90% as well. Now as a true enthusiast, I would absolutely put "value" aside and pay a premium for that extra 10% of performance But that's just me and enthusiasts like me are not a large portion of the market. I've had the opportunity to play with some of the Sundown stuff as well as many other unfamiliar brands and can honestly say that it's good solid gear that is in my eyes a good value. It is every bit as reliable as the main stream stuff and costs less (comparitively speaking). Now what you DON'T get with these brands is that "middle man". So no, you cannot get install advice from a salesman, nor can you just bring it back to the store and swap it out if it does fail (but the same goes for the main stream stuff when purchasing it from ebay anyway right! )

So

-Just because a company is small or new with good prices for its gear, doesn't automatically mean it is cutting corners or short changing its customers

-Just because main stream gear is branded with a popular logo, doesn't automatically mean it's a good value.

-Just because an amp is designed and built in Asia and shares the same board as some others doesn't make it garbage or unreliable. Hell, even PG's "The ONE" is a shared design with a few other companies

Not true...

[stipud]

To me, how many watts the amp produces is not the sole measure of an amp's value.

This is my point as well. Its not just about how many watts it produces. But all things being equal (ie sound quality, build quality, power) but price which would provide the buyer greater value? Im not saying the PG amp is bad but again IMHO its not a value.

They don't compete in the same market. Sundown is a boutique brand that cuts out the middle man so that "those in the know" can get a better deal on straight-from-the-source SPL gear. PG is a mainstream brick and mortar brand that targets a much wider audience, and has their own marketing and R&D to pay for. If all things were considered equal, besides wattage and price, then by all means of course Sundown would be better "value". But that's not PG's market... PG goes to CES, SEMA, builds show cars, advertises in magazines and has a lot of in house staff to pay for. That cost is added directly onto the price of the amplifiers. Of course there's less value than a brand that is run by a handful of people ordering and shipping directly from asian manufacturers.

This really emphasizes the state of the car audio market these days. You've got the newbies who buy and install their gear at brick and mortar shops, who tend to go for the entry level amps. You've got the SPLers who tend to only think watts per dollars. Then there are the audiophiles who buy the cream of the crop stuff, regardless of cost, like audison. To be honest I think we're lucky PG is even putting out the Ti series amps anymore. Their A/B amps still compete on SQ with the likes of audison, but at a far better value. Yes, it's not as good of value today as when PG gear was leaked all over eBay, but that is the reason the company damn near went under anyways.

[stipud]

Not true...

Care to elaborate?

[Eric D]

Not true...

Care to elaborate?

Sure. Shawn K just posted his opinion as if it were fact. Any (actually every) time I do that he calls me out on it, so it only makes sense I keep him in check as he does me.

[stipud]

Sure. Shawn K just posted his opinion as if it were fact. Any (actually every) time I do that he calls me out on it, so it only makes sense I keep him in check as he does me.

We're all just posting our opinions here. It's a discussion... nobody is calling anyone out. Quite a bit of his post I agreed with, so I am curious what specifically you disagree with.

[shawn k]

Not true...

Care to elaborate?

Sure. Shawn K just posted his opinion as if it were fact. Any (actually every) time I do that he calls me out on it, so it only makes sense I keep him in check as he does me.

Um.. I'm not following you here

If I ever "call someone out" I always try my best to explain why.

[HiloDB1]

They don't compete in the same market. Sundown is a boutique brand that cuts out the middle man so that "those in the know" can get a better deal on straight-from-the-source SPL gear. PG is a mainstream brick and mortar brand that targets a much wider audience, and has their own marketing and R&D to pay for. If all things were considered equal, besides wattage and price, then by all means of course Sundown would be better "value". But that's not PG's market... PG goes to CES, SEMA, builds show cars, advertises in magazines and has a lot of in house staff to pay for. That cost is added directly onto the price of the amplifiers. Of course there's less value than a brand that is run by a handful of people ordering and shipping directly from asian manufacturers.

This really emphasizes the state of the car audio market these days. You've got the newbies who buy and install their gear at brick and mortar shops, who tend to go for the entry level amps. You've got the SPLers who tend to only think watts per dollars. Then there are the audiophiles who buy the cream of the crop stuff, regardless of cost, like audison. To be honest I think we're lucky PG is even putting out the Ti series amps anymore. Their A/B amps still compete on SQ with the likes of audison, but at a far better value. Yes, it's not as good of value today as when PG gear was leaked all over eBay, but that is the reason the company damn near went under anyways.

Yes they are in a niche market and that is how they sell at the price they do. I can also understand the higher end of the audio spectrum. Heck I own 2 Arc 4000SE's that I got at a stellar value .

[Eric D]

Sure. Shawn K just posted his opinion as if it were fact. Any (actually every) time I do that he calls me out on it, so it only makes sense I keep him in check as he does me.

We're all just posting our opinions here. It's a discussion... nobody is calling anyone out. Quite a bit of his post I agreed with, so I am curious what specifically you disagree with.

I also agree with a lot of his post. I just don't care for it being posted as fact.

Every time I read one of shawn's responses to a post of mine I feel like I don't know anything at all about car audio. I guess he is just damn good at talking down to me. Even when I try to get out of an argument, I can't, he just keeps digging. He never provides any evidence for anything, just better (or more authoritative) wording.

Go back and read where he entered this thread in the first place. It is as if the lord himself came down from the heavens to help set the record straight...

So kudos to him for finding my breaking point.

[shawn k]

I also agree with a lot of his post. I just don't care for it being posted as fact.

Every time I read one of shawn's responses to a post of mine I feel like I don't know anything at all about car audio. I guess he is just damn good at talking down to me. Even when I try to get out of an argument, I can't, he just keeps digging. He never provides any evidence for anything, just better (or more authoritative) wording.

Go back and read where he entered this thread in the first place. It is as if the lord himself came down from the heavens to help set the record straight...

So kudos to him for finding my breaking point.

Bro! I'm not here to "talk down to you" or anyone else for that matter Please don't take this as me being arrogant but, I've been in the heart of the industry for about a decade and a half and I've had my fare share of experience. I started out as an installer for a sizeable franchise (Tweeter). Then moved on to an independant where I was hired specifically to manage the floor as well as the install bay and improve the company's reputation. Then opened my own shop, Custom Sound Works, from scratch. Went back to Tweeter in 05' as the install manager where I was named the Installer of the Year in 08'. I competed in SLAP (pro ultimate) back in 03' and placed 2nd @ the Nationals. I've built a true blue 20,000w SPL vehicle for a client which we're closing in on the 160db mark. I've been to CES, MERA and countless other product trainings from reputable companies and the list goes on. Now I know this means pretty much nothing to you and that's fine, but what I'm trying to say is that my posts are from ME and MY experiences and most of my posts ARE FACT unless in some form I stating my "opinion"! I don't go around just throwing out bad info, and I ALWAYS try to provide "evidence". If you are someone else doesn't believe this then you/they are simply not reading my posts in its entirety!! I've made my mistakes in the past, and I won't hesitate to admit when I'm wrong but I won't just subside when someone is being hypocritical or providing misinformation!

So sorry, but I don't see the need to walk on eggs shelss when you're around

[stipud]

I also agree with a lot of his post. I just don't care for it being posted as fact.

Every time I read one of shawn's responses to a post of mine I feel like I don't know anything at all about car audio. I guess he is just damn good at talking down to me. Even when I try to get out of an argument, I can't, he just keeps digging. He never provides any evidence for anything, just better (or more authoritative) wording.

Go back and read where he entered this thread in the first place. It is as if the lord himself came down from the heavens to help set the record straight...

So kudos to him for finding my breaking point.

Huh? What do you mean? I didn't get the feeling he was talking down to you at all.

His last post was full of subjective statements, e.g.
For me...
I personally...
But that's just me...
in my eyes...

That's definitely not expressing things objectively, as fact. Sure I guess the three points he wrote at the end were, but that stuff is all pretty straightforward, no?

[Eric D]

I also agree with a lot of his post. I just don't care for it being posted as fact.

Every time I read one of shawn's responses to a post of mine I feel like I don't know anything at all about car audio. I guess he is just damn good at talking down to me. Even when I try to get out of an argument, I can't, he just keeps digging. He never provides any evidence for anything, just better (or more authoritative) wording.

Go back and read where he entered this thread in the first place. It is as if the lord himself came down from the heavens to help set the record straight...

So kudos to him for finding my breaking point.

Bro! I'm not here to "talk down to you" or anyone else for that matter Please don't take this as me being arrogant but, I've been in the heart of the industry for about a decade and a half and I've had my fare share of experience. I started out as an installer for a sizeable franchise (Tweeter). Then moved on to an independant where I was hired specifically to manage the floor as well as the install bay and improve the company's reputation. Then opened my own shop, Custom Sound Works, from scratch. Went back to Tweeter in 05' as the install manager where I was named the Installer of the Year in 08'. I competed in SLAP (pro ultimate) back in 03' and placed 2nd @ the Nationals. I've built a true blue 20,000w SPL vehicle for a client which we're closing in on the 160db mark. I've been to CES, MERA and countless other product trainings from reputable companies and the list goes on. Now I know this means pretty much nothing to you and that's fine, but what I'm trying to say is that my posts are from ME and MY experiences and most of my posts ARE FACT unless in some form I stating my "opinion"! I don't go around just throwing out bad info, and I ALWAYS try to provide "evidence". If you are someone else doesn't believe this then you/they are simply not reading my posts in its entirety!! I've made my mistakes in the past, and I won't hesitate to admit when I'm wrong but I won't just subside when someone is being hypocritical or providing misinformation!

So sorry, but I don't see the need to walk on eggs shelss when you're around

You have one hell of a background there. I can't disagree with that. And I owe you a lot more respect.

However, I wish you could understand that even with all that experience, it does not automatically mean what you post is fact. I make mistakes, and I know you do as well. You don't need to walk on eggshells, but pushing your knowledge without any evidence is just downright irritating.

I used to be really bad at this, but I have made a very conscious effort to improve my attitude. I do all I can to remind myself to use lines such as "I believe so", or "the last I knew" or anything else to be a little less absolute. There are plenty of people out there who think just because they are older they automatically know more. We all know what I am talking about. Well, sure some guy 75 years old might happen to know more about finances than I do, but I doubt he knows more about computers. We all have strong points and weak points. You know a ton about car audio, but you don't know everything. You claim you admit when you are wrong, but I have yet to see that ever happen.

Also, I think you fail to realize there is a such thing as being in something for too long. I know installers who were installing since the 80's. Many of them know less than I do. They just ended up repeating the same thing over and over (deck and four, deck and four) on and on. It does not matter how long you do something, if you don't do anything new, you stop learning.

Anyway, I admit I am wrong. I had no idea the Ti2500.1 did less than rated until reading this thread, but did not want to admit I am detached from the industry (as accurately pointed out by another poster), so I kept arguing.

I never heard of all the brands mentioned in this thread other than Sundown Audio until now, so I kept arguing.

A friend told me about Sundown Audio well over a year ago, but I am to brand centric and close minded to even consider their products an option.

I have not installed a piece of car audio equipment in over six years now, and to say I am "rusty" is the world's greatest understatement.

I might as well just go all the way here...

I am a hack. I have been for quite some time.

In the back of my mind I thought I knew something, but the reality is I just keep rehashing the same answers to the same questions as they perpetually show up on this forum. I have no new knowledge to add to this forum, nor do I have any new experience either!

I have a minimal at best knowledge of electronics, enough to dabble at fixing things, but no where near enough to actually get a useful job in the electronics industry, or fix any challenging failure on an amplifier.

I have amassed a huge car audio collection for reasons I honestly don't know why. It has become an excessive addiction, and is really gaining me no satisfaction, or even entertainment.