Why does everyone hate the Ipad or Ipod?

bassman · Post by **bassman** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:28 pm

I have one in the middle of my dash and see no reason why it should not be there, nice size screen and I can fill it with mp3s and video.

It runs into my Alpine deck so it's not like I don't have a good source for perfect audio.

Post by **Eric D** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:59 am

Who is "everyone"?

Two people?

I don't hate iPads or iPods, but I think that integrating them into a vehicle is pretty lame. Why take something designed from the ground up to be "on the go", and build it into a permanent installation? It does not make any sense.

It would be like fiberglassing a laptop computer into a dash. If you want integrated, then use more suitable equipment. Instead of a laptop, find a touch screen monitor, and put a mini desktop computer buried in the car somewhere. That makes more sense to me.

shawn k · Post by **shawn k** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:43 am

I don't hate them... Actually, I think that if you have the room for one without it looking too gaudy in the dash then go for it! I don't care too much for the ones that "Soundman" does (side sliders), but there have been many other custom installs, including the one they just did in the F150, that I think look fantastic!

I've done the whole "touch screen w/computer" thing a good 10 years ago, and back then there weren't any other options. I only wish the iPad was around back then. It's really an "all in one" solution.... No software issues, no calibrating the touch screen, no worries about tricky power supplies, less space requirements and wiring, awesome screen/resolution, and the list goes on.

Hell with the new iPad 3, you don't even need to take it out of the vehicle!!! With iCloud, you can simply park your vehicle next to your home and simply "push" all new files/apps etc. right onto the iPad wirelessly! Pretty sweet!

Some might say that it's a bit rediculous to "permanently" install an $800 iPad into a vehicle, but think about how many $1k+ double dins have been purchased and installed which have far less features!

If I had the room for one in my dash (like my old Civic), I would do it in a heartbeat!

bassman · Post by **bassman** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:25 am

Eric D wrote:Who is "everyone"?

Two people?

I don't hate iPads or iPods, but I think that integrating them into a vehicle is pretty lame. Why take something designed from the ground up to be "on the go", and build it into a permanent installation? It does not make any sense.

It would be like fiberglassing a laptop computer into a dash. If you want integrated, then use more suitable equipment. Instead of a laptop, find a touch screen monitor, and put a mini desktop computer buried in the car somewhere. That makes more sense to me.

With new versions of Ipads coming out every few months around here many people sell the old ones cheap, I paid $200 for a 64 gb with no camera.
It has a spot in the dash that it fits into and is held in with 2 screws so I can take it out fast if I want to.

ludeboost98 · Post by **ludeboost98** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:11 pm

Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there an issue with sacrificing sq because of compressed audio?

Lance_S · Post by **Lance_S** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:26 pm

Lossless is about half the compression of a CD. It's obviously significantly better than seriously compressed audio but it's still not cd quality. The problem with most of the IPODs and IPADs are they use their DAC's. So if you have a nice head unit with 24 bit burr browns or something similar, you are bypassing those. At least with most head units. There may be some out there that with use the internal DAC's on an aux input but i am not sure of any on the market.

utilizing a hard drive for music space is significantly superior for space. You could also hook up a external HD to an IPAD and have a ton of capacity. i just don't know if you can get around the crappy DAC's.

I was thinking of using one for a completely new digital gauge package. There is some great software out there that plugs into the obd2 sensor. But as I understand it, even lossless is compressing the original feed by 50 percent. Whether you can hear the difference if you had the same DAC's is unkown to me.

finbar · Post by **finbar** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:48 pm

Some iPods use Wolfson DACs, http://macintoshhowto.com/itunes/which- ... ality.html.

shawn k · Post by **shawn k** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:34 pm

finbar wrote:Some iPods use Wolfson DACs, http://macintoshhowto.com/itunes/which- ... ality.html.

Thanks... I was just going to say that myself

The fact of the matter is, and I'm not pointing out anyone specifically, that there are countless systems out there with problems that far exeed any difference you'll find in a lossless file compared to CD. I've met loads people/competitors at various car audio events and elsewhere. Many of them argue the whole "iPod sounds like poo" thing. I've often had the opportunity to listen to these extensive systems (for leisure, or for judging) and not once have I heard a "perfect" system... myself included

There are often MANY things that need to/should be rectified just to make some of these systems sound just "good"!! Problems like these (dynamic range, phasing issues, tonal accuracy, balance etc...) should be addresse before arguing against the trusty iPod. All I'm saying is, at this stage in the game, it's really nit-picking if you try to dismiss an iPod for it's "inferior" sound quality.

Think of this as well..... When it all boils down to it, what does an iPod cost? Now I'm basically talking about just the convenience of the hard drive for audio file storage. So lets say, on average, $200 is a good number. We can't really compare the $800 iPad here because you're really getting much more than just an "iPod". Now do you really think a $200 deck is going to "sound" better than the iPod running lossless files??

Now will a $2k Denon Z1 "sound" better than your Nano??? Probably! And if I were after the best of the best of the best audio reproduction possible in a vehicle, then I would probably go this route! On the other hand, the convenience of having thousands of songs in one little package while still fully capable of sounding great is awefully tempting! Soooo why not just do both right

Post by **fuzzysnuggleduck** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:05 pm

For some people it's the same brand thing as Chevy vs. Ford. They just don't like Apple or what they think Apple represents and will use that belief to dismiss all their products and the users of their products. Same thing happens with Microsoft or JL or Alpine or Pioneer, etc.

There are of course valid reasons to like or dislike certain products or companies and especially specific applications of said products. I think if you want to build an iPad into your dash then by all means! There are basically two main ways you can get audio out of it: line out via the headphone jack or the 30 pin dock connector and via digital connection where the DAC is bypassed and the files fed directly into the DAC of the device connected to the dock connector. Obviously you have to have an HU that supports this and it better have a nice DAC to be worthwhile.

Lastly, I agree with Shawn. Most systems have other issues that will detract from SQ more than "high quality" compressed (lossy or lossless) via the iPad/iPod will.

Convenience trumps almost everything else when it comes to digital life these days. And dare I say that isn't the worst thing in the world. Those who require the highest quality were always a niche willing to pay a serious premium for it.

nutxo · Post by **nutxo** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:14 pm

I dislike apple specifically.

I cannot stand proprietary software and hardware. Apple leeches off the market and stifles innovation and steals whatever it likes and when they get caught they lawyer up. The iphone existed before apples iphone, apple stole the name. Teh ipad was created by monster garage, apple stole it. Xwindows, the mouse yadda yadda the list goes on and on and the only thing wore than apple is the die hard apple fans.

Myself Id run linux 100% if I could but I liek to game. Since apple games like shit and so does linux Im just stuck with unlimited choices and windows.

I gotta say though. I dig android.

freshkryp69 · Post by **freshkryp69** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:14 pm

Once I seen the working conditions and suicide rate of the factory workers...same with nike, i said never in my life!. And for a phone android blows it away..

Post by **Francious70** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:51 pm

I dislike Apple products for 2 reasons.

Price
Their fanboys

That said, I own a first gen IPod shuffle, but only because it was free.

Post by **ttocs** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:33 am

I hate the people that use them more then the products themself. For some reason ipeople seem to think that it is ok to try to carry on a conversation both with me and his phone at hte sae

dwnrodeo · Post by **dwnrodeo** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:57 am

Just FYI, there are a number of reasonably priced headunits that bypass the iPod's DAC's and use the headunits (my Kenwood X994 does this). I use my iPod almost exclusively when listening to music in my vehicle(s). Why? Because keeping many CD's in my vehicle sucks, lossless files are so close to CD quality (if not the same) that I can't tell a difference especially when driving down the road and most headunits allow full control of the iPod through the headunit itself. I agree with Shawn, most people are going to have MUCH bigger problems with their systems than lossless vs. CD quality differences.

Post by **ttocs** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:55 am

shit I must be doing something wrong then as it seems like half of my mp3's are shitty recordings or have some kind of additional sounds/noise in it that my cd's don't have

nutxo · Post by **nutxo** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:12 am

dwnrodeo wrote:Just FYI, there are a number of reasonably priced headunits that bypass the iPod's DAC's and use the headunits (my Kenwood X994 does this). I use my iPod almost exclusively when listening to music in my vehicle(s). Why? Because keeping many CD's in my vehicle sucks, lossless files are so close to CD quality (if not the same) that I can't tell a difference especially when driving down the road and most headunits allow full control of the iPod through the headunit itself. I agree with Shawn, most people are going to have MUCH bigger problems with their systems than lossless vs. CD quality differences.

I use flashdrives

Mackenzie · Post by **Mackenzie** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:27 am

nutxo wrote:
dwnrodeo wrote:Just FYI, there are a number of reasonably priced headunits that bypass the iPod's DAC's and use the headunits (my Kenwood X994 does this). I use my iPod almost exclusively when listening to music in my vehicle(s). Why? Because keeping many CD's in my vehicle sucks, lossless files are so close to CD quality (if not the same) that I can't tell a difference especially when driving down the road and most headunits allow full control of the iPod through the headunit itself. I agree with Shawn, most people are going to have MUCH bigger problems with their systems than lossless vs. CD quality differences.
I use flashdrives

Same here, been using them for years in my car, and I have complete control over the deck without using a dump ipod. I wont touch an apple product, unless Im repairing a broken iphone screen for profit, or ect. I dislike their products, and the brand as a whole.. Long live flash drives

Lance_S · Post by **Lance_S** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:59 am

dwnrodeo wrote:Just FYI, there are a number of reasonably priced headunits that bypass the iPod's DAC's and use the headunits (my Kenwood X994 does this). I use my iPod almost exclusively when listening to music in my vehicle(s). Why? Because keeping many CD's in my vehicle sucks, lossless files are so close to CD quality (if not the same) that I can't tell a difference especially when driving down the road and most headunits allow full control of the iPod through the headunit itself. I agree with Shawn, most people are going to have MUCH bigger problems with their systems than lossless vs. CD quality differences.

The problem isn't the storage unit, it's that the majority of the head units don't all lossless! The only one that I know of right now is the high end pioneer. Though I am sure they may be others out there I can tell you neither the 9887, the new pioneer 80rs, the older 800/880 prs and the Eclipse CD7200, none of them allow compressed audio over 320 kps. That includes ACC, MP3's or any other media form. This is one of the main problems with digital recordings. The top of the line pioneer I believe can play lossless, but I don't know of many others. I expected the new pioneer 80 to have lossless capability but I pulled the manual last night and it doesn't. Pretty disappointing. I don't know if you can hear the difference between a CD and lossless, but I am betting you can hear the difference between 320 and lossless. I haven't done an AB comparison so I am speaking hypothetically but I have reviews of those that have gone below 320 and said it was a crap signal.

BTW, you aren't listening to lossless music, your 994 doesn't support it. Like most head units out there, it only supports up to 320. Your listening to 320 or less whether you are playing ACC, WMA or MP3.

I thought about adding a touchscreen of sorts at some point to my system. Like most people, carry around 450 cd's in your car doesn't work. So digital media is the next best thing. But I haven't found a head unit that will play digital media above 320 kps except for the high end pioneer and that just isn't in my price range.

Maybe I am missing something.

Post by **ttocs** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:47 pm

I have only used mp3's on my phone/mp3 player with headphones. It is nice to be able to have a large library to listen too on there since I have no other option to get music from(sirius, cd, regular radio). Now carrying extra music along with my phone would be hard but I am not sure why people are making it out to be so difficult to have your favorite cd's with you in the car to switch out? Between my cd changer, sirius or the indash cd I have never had a problem finding some song/music that I liked and not had to worry about what it was recorded at, what it was reading at, ect.... Or is this just limited by the fact that I am one of the last people in north america that is still buying cd's and not downloading all of my music?

Lance_S · Post by **Lance_S** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:30 pm

ttocs wrote:I have only used mp3's on my phone/mp3 player with headphones. It is nice to be able to have a large library to listen too on there since I have no other option to get music from(sirius, cd, regular radio). Now carrying extra music along with my phone would be hard but I am not sure why people are making it out to be so difficult to have your favorite cd's with you in the car to switch out? Between my cd changer, sirius or the indash cd I have never had a problem finding some song/music that I liked and not had to worry about what it was recorded at, what it was reading at, ect.... Or is this just limited by the fact that I am one of the last people in north america that is still buying cd's and not downloading all of my music?

lol, no ttocs. I am right there with you. I just bought the newest cd from the Black Keys (el camino). I buy my music in CD form only when I want the whole cd. But often, I only want one song, so I download it. I have thought the same thing when it comes to digital storage. Convert everything in digital form first to FLAC as a base, then go to 320 (max bit rate for almost all in dash players cept for the pioneer 99) and just put on a smile and live with it. Then keep 20 or 30 of my most cherished CD's (Floyd, Dire Straits, Stevie Ray, old Van Halen, etc) in a soft disc library holder in the car. That is probably the best way to go right now. And like I said, I still haven't done an AB test on 320 vs. CD (which I do intent to do in the future). Who knows, my golden ear may not be that golden. I may not even notice the difference.

Post by **ttocs** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:53 pm

I like my cd's too much to trade them and the sq they have to hope that either my deck or the conversion software did a good enough job that I would no notice. I have plenty of space in my vehicle to carry my collection to enjoy the sq that they were meant to be enjoyed as. To this date I think I have only downloaded one song, well legally anyway but its been years since it was fun to do it illegally. Come to think of it that was the only time I really got into mp3s was when they were free!

00goobs · Post by **00goobs** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:08 pm

I love my $200 used iPad 2. I put on some crappy noise canceling ear buds on a plane and listen to hours of music, play games and watch a few favorite loaded movies, my 8hr plane trip goes by in a breeze....

If I came up with the tech, I'd ask for a premium on my ideas as long as I could....

mrblack · Post by **mrblack** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:27 am

Alright, lets talk a little about lossless encoding here and set things straight.

Lossless = exactly the same as the original... there is absolutely no difference between 16bit, 44.1khz lossless audio and CD audio when the music is decoded on the same source,.. so as long as the file is ripped from a quality source in the beginning, it will retain 100% of its musical content on playback...

Lance mentioned that

often, I only want one song, so I download it. I have thought the same thing when it comes to digital storage. Convert everything in digital form first to FLAC as a base, then go to 320 (max bit rate for almost all in dash players cept for the pioneer 99) and just put on a smile and live with it.

Maybe I'm reading Lance's post wrong here, but I want to clarify in the very least. I really really hope he's not suggesting after downloading your MP3 or AAC off of iTunes or the internet somewhere that converting it to FLAC and then to 320 will benefit the quality of the file because this is the last thing you would ever want to do. The file you received off the net is as high quality as its ever going to be, and unless you started with a lossless file from the get go you are only making things worse by re-encoding it to a different bitrate. If its compressed at a low bitrate like most music on iTunes, it's never going to get any better.. Starting with original CD and going to FLAC and then to MP3 would be fine, but once it's at 320 MP3 you can never go back to its true original quality...

Another quote by Lance

BTW, you aren't listening to lossless music, your 994 doesn't support it. Like most head units out there, it only supports up to 320. Your listening to 320 or less whether you are playing ACC, WMA or MP3.

While you might be right that his Kenwood head unit itself isn't capable of playing back music encoded higher than 320kbps, it doesn't matter in his situation because the iPod is doing the decoding itself and it most certainly is capable of playing lossless AAC files. Once decoded on the iPod, the digital stream is sent to the DAC's in the head unit to be converted to analog and sent to your amps / speakers. If your head is capable of bypassing the iPods internal DAC such as his x994 then this would result in quality exactly the same as CD playback in his system.

ttocs talks about MP3 quality

shit I must be doing something wrong then as it seems like half of my mp3's are shitty recordings or have some kind of additional sounds/noise in it that my cd's don't have

I agree you must be doing something wrong because in almost every scenario a quality mp3 encoded at a high bitrate will be indiscernible to its original source on even the highest quality systems. If you're hearing additional sounds then its likely a result of a problem with your playback source or bad encoding habits similar to those mentioned above. I can't stress enough, never ever re-encode a lossy file to another lossy format, just don't do it. And if you do, please don't upload and share them with me on the internets! lol

Later ttocs mentions

Between my cd changer, sirius or the indash cd I have never had a problem finding some song/music that I liked and not had to worry about what it was recorded at, what it was reading at, ect....

Seriously? Sirius?! you can stand listening to music on Sirius radio but not MP3's? This blows my mind! Where are you downloading your music from??

I haven't followed too closely for a while now, but years ago the average bitrate of the highest quality satellite radio music channel streams had already dipped below 32kpbs, and trust me it's only gotten worse as they've kept adding new channels under the same bandwidth restrictions! I know Sirius' encoding isn't exactly the same technology, but just compare that number to even a low quality 128kb MP3?! In the simplest sense, the MP3 retains 4 times the original musical information than the satellite radio stream... I have a directly connected XM unit and can speak from experience. The quality is much much worse than anything I've ever listened to on my system. I actually don't use it for anything besides the comedy channel simply because it sounds so bad, good thing it's free..

And before you start to think I'm one of those guys that has their nose shoved deep up Apple's ass,... I too lean to the side that dislikes Apple due to its overall attitude, business practices and closed mindedness when it comes to the development of their products. However unfortunate that this may be, the iPod has solidified a role in today's car audio, and if you can get around the annoyance of having to use iTunes as well as the embarassment of being an Apple product owner these things are able to integrate into the car audio world quite well today, even on my 14 year old head unit!

With that said I admit I am an iPhone owner, but having access to 60 gigs of my favorite albums in their original lossless quality connected to my system in bit perfect digital all at my fingertips is just too much to ignore. The convenience of having a single song just a simple touchscreen or voice command away is a lot handier than lugging around cases of CD and flipping through pages to find the one you want, again without any sacrifice to quality! On top of it all, Pandora Radio streams near flawlessly on the road, much better than XM does (like if I pass a semi and the satellite antenna looses sight of the sky for a few seconds...) and it sounds much much better too! Bit perfect audio from a tiny portable device, had it been this simple 10 years ago we would've been jumping all over the chance to work one into our system.

Android is a great OS but sadly it will not share a presence in car audio unless manufacturers begin finding ways to integrate it into car audio in the same simple ways that the iPod has done. Plus if you want customization options just jailbreak your iPhone and make it do whatever you want.

shawn k · Post by **shawn k** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:45 am

^^
Perfect!

Lance_S · Post by **Lance_S** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:54 am

mrblack wrote:Alright, lets talk a little about lossless encoding here and set things straight.

Lossless = exactly the same as the original... there is absolutely no difference between 16bit, 44.1khz lossless audio and CD audio when the music is decoded on the same source,.. so as long as the file is ripped from a quality source in the beginning, it will retain 100% of its musical content on playback...

Lance mentioned that
often, I only want one song, so I download it. I have thought the same thing when it comes to digital storage. Convert everything in digital form first to FLAC as a base, then go to 320 (max bit rate for almost all in dash players cept for the pioneer 99) and just put on a smile and live with it.
Maybe I'm reading Lance's post wrong here, but I want to clarify in the very least. I really really hope he's not suggesting after downloading your MP3 or AAC off of iTunes or the internet somewhere that converting it to FLAC and then to 320 will benefit the quality of the file because this is the last thing you would ever want to do. The file you received off the net is as high quality as its ever going to be, and unless you started with a lossless file from the get go you are only making things worse by re-encoding it to a different bitrate. If its compressed at a low bitrate like most music on iTunes, it's never going to get any better.. Starting with original CD and going to FLAC and then to MP3 would be fine, but once it's at 320 MP3 you can never go back to its true original quality...

Another quote by Lance
BTW, you aren't listening to lossless music, your 994 doesn't support it. Like most head units out there, it only supports up to 320. Your listening to 320 or less whether you are playing ACC, WMA or MP3.
While you might be right that his Kenwood head unit itself isn't capable of playing back music encoded higher than 320kbps, it doesn't matter in his situation because the iPod is doing the decoding itself and it most certainly is capable of playing lossless AAC files. Once decoded on the iPod, the digital stream is sent to the DAC's in the head unit to be converted to analog and sent to your amps / speakers. If your head is capable of bypassing the iPods internal DAC such as his x994 then this would result in quality exactly the same as CD playback in his system.

ttocs talks about MP3 quality
shit I must be doing something wrong then as it seems like half of my mp3's are shitty recordings or have some kind of additional sounds/noise in it that my cd's don't have
I agree you must be doing something wrong because in almost every scenario a quality mp3 encoded at a high bitrate will be indiscernible to its original source on even the highest quality systems. If you're hearing additional sounds then its likely a result of a problem with your playback source or bad encoding habits similar to those mentioned above. I can't stress enough, never ever re-encode a lossy file to another lossy format, just don't do it. And if you do, please don't upload and share them with me on the internets! lol

Later ttocs mentions
Between my cd changer, sirius or the indash cd I have never had a problem finding some song/music that I liked and not had to worry about what it was recorded at, what it was reading at, ect....
Seriously? Sirius?! you can stand listening to music on Sirius radio but not MP3's? This blows my mind! Where are you downloading your music from??

I haven't followed too closely for a while now, but years ago the average bitrate of the highest quality satellite radio music channel streams had already dipped below 32kpbs, and trust me it's only gotten worse as they've kept adding new channels under the same bandwidth restrictions! I know Sirius' encoding isn't exactly the same technology, but just compare that number to even a low quality 128kb MP3?! In the simplest sense, the MP3 retains 4 times the original musical information than the satellite radio stream... I have a directly connected XM unit and can speak from experience. The quality is much much worse than anything I've ever listened to on my system. I actually don't use it for anything besides the comedy channel simply because it sounds so bad, good thing it's free..

And before you start to think I'm one of those guys that has their nose shoved deep up Apple's ass,... I too lean to the side that dislikes Apple due to its overall attitude, business practices and closed mindedness when it comes to the development of their products. However unfortunate that this may be, the iPod has solidified a role in today's car audio, and if you can get around the annoyance of having to use iTunes as well as the embarassment of being an Apple product owner these things are able to integrate into the car audio world quite well today, even on my 14 year old head unit!

With that said I admit I am an iPhone owner, but having access to 60 gigs of my favorite albums in their original lossless quality connected to my system in bit perfect digital all at my fingertips is just too much to ignore. The convenience of having a single song just a simple touchscreen or voice command away is a lot handier than lugging around cases of CD and flipping through pages to find the one you want, again without any sacrifice to quality! On top of it all, Pandora Radio streams near flawlessly on the road, much better than XM does (like if I pass a semi and the satellite antenna looses sight of the sky for a few seconds...) and it sounds much much better too! Bit perfect audio from a tiny portable device, had it been this simple 10 years ago we would've been jumping all over the chance to work one into our system.

Android is a great OS but sadly it will not share a presence in car audio unless manufacturers begin finding ways to integrate it into car audio in the same simple ways that the iPod has done. Plus if you want customization options just jailbreak your iPhone and make it do whatever you want.

First of all, no, I wasn't suggesting I was going to try and convert a 320 to lossless, impossible. My intention was to take all of my music from it's source, the cd and convert it to FLAC. Then i will have a digital copy, in it's original form, from there, it can be changed to what ever I would like.

I also realize that 994 supports bypassing the DAC's so he would be able to play lossless, but most head units do not. Especially high end older units that many audiofiles run including but not limited to the Alpine 9887, the Eclipse CD7200, The Pioneer 800/880 PRS, etc. So if you have a newer model deck, yeah, it will do it. But many of the newer model decks also don't have really good internal DAC's. Is bypassing the ipod dacs for an mediocre internal DAC on a headunit better than the IPOD DAC? Yes. Do most audiofiles run those decks? No. So the only answer for those that want to run lossless with decent DAC's is to buy a new head unit, which is disappointing. My next purchase would most likely be the new Pioneer 80. Most serious audiofiles are looking for a head unit that will have the capability of a large EQ with left and right control, internal 3 or 4 way crossovers, high voltage outs, etc. Many of the newer decks that bypass ipod to internal DACs don't meet the needs of many serious audiofiles. I am a bit jadded because I have a decent deck (9887) but it doesn't meet my digital needs so I am forced to see it and purchase something that does.