ZX1200ti "Off Road" Limited Edition Amp on the Amp Dyno

[bigdwiz]

First off, the amp belongs to Itchy, he had both sent to me after having them recapped and I agreed to test them as he was one of the first who generously donated to help me in purchasing the Amp Dyno.

I'm sure most members here know about these amps, but for those who don't...

Phoenix Gold ZX1200ti "Off Road" Limited Edition Amp...uber rare, possibly only 2 ever made? It's essentially (2) ZX600ti's inside one large heatsink. Ratings are as follows:

75x4 @ 4 ohms (12.5V)
150x4 @ 4 ohms (14.4V)
300x4 @ 2 ohms (14.4V)
600x2 @ 4 ohms bridged (14.4V)

Tests were all performed with the amp bridged to 2 channel operation. The Dyno has 2 "channels" and I wanted to ensure all channels were loaded down during the test. The 8 ohm tests (x2) will simulate 4 ohm stereo test (x4). Itchy wanted me to test the amp from 8 ohms down to 2 ohms, so this is what I did.

The D'Amore Engineering AD-1 Amp Dyno gives us the ability to test 3 modes in several different ohm loads:

1) Certified - Tests amplifier RMS wattage up to 1% THD using either 40Hz or 1kHz tones
2) Uncertified - Tests amplifier RMS wattage up to clipping using either 40Hz or 1kHz tones
3) Dynamic Burst - Tests amplifier RMS wattage using burst tones. The 1kHz test at 14.4V adheres to the IHF-202 certification for Dynamic Power. D'Amore says this mode simulates music playback instead of continuous tones as the certified and uncertified modes use.

I have a large regulated, adjustable power supply capable of up to 250A at 18V or 320A at 14V. It requires a 240V 30A input and only slightly dims the lights

**UPDATE** Video below!

See the video on YouTube in 1080P HD or embedded below:

[Kirghiz]

like

[kg1961]

very nice !!!

[Drock]

I would be ecstatic if I had that bad boy. I'm a sucker for ti anything.


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[Drock]

Damn you itchy. Lol. I'm so jellous.


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[Eric D]

Personally I don't think it is so smart to test such a rare amplifier on the amp dyno.

Finding the max power of an amplifier under load, with a test tone is very hard on the amplifier. Especially so for amps designed to run full range speakers, not power SPL vehicles.

So far pretty much every PG amp I have worked with has been underrated, and if you were to just do the raw math on these amplifiers, they do not have the power supplies for sustained power at their under rated output levels.

You would be better off using an impulse signal, and an oscilloscope with triggered capture capability, if you want to load test it. This way it would only be a split second of stress on the amplifier.

I am only saying this from experience. I have personally killed several amplifiers testing them under load at full power with 1kHz signals. I now no longer test this way, as no one listens to 1kHz test tones in their vehicle anyway.

If you want to run am amp up to say 50% power with a test tone, then that would be a great test to verify it is working correctly, and does not have some weak link. If you wish to test an SPL amp with 100% power and test tones, that too is a great test, as SPL amps are often run at 100% (or more), and if it would not survive the test, you won't be wining with it.

[Kirghiz]

There are three different test modes on the AD Dyno, RMS, Dynamic, and Burst. Burst is the most dangerous, and pointless on a full range amp as you say, but I don't see how RMS and Dynamic would hurt it considering the test runs for 15 seconds tops.

[kg1961]

Say 125x2 ish?

[bigdwiz]

Personally I don't think it is so smart to test such a rare amplifier on the amp dyno.

Finding the max power of an amplifier under load, with a test tone is very hard on the amplifier. Especially so for amps designed to run full range speakers, not power SPL vehicles.

So far pretty much every PG amp I have worked with has been underrated, and if you were to just do the raw math on these amplifiers, they do not have the power supplies for sustained power at their under rated output levels.

You would be better off using an impulse signal, and an oscilloscope with triggered capture capability, if you want to load test it. This way it would only be a split second of stress on the amplifier.

I am only saying this from experience. I have personally killed several amplifiers testing them under load at full power with 1kHz signals. I now no longer test this way, as no one listens to 1kHz test tones in their vehicle anyway.

If you want to run am amp up to say 50% power with a test tone, then that would be a great test to verify it is working correctly, and does not have some weak link. If you wish to test an SPL amp with 100% power and test tones, that too is a great test, as SPL amps are often run at 100% (or more), and if it would not survive the test, you won't be wining with it.

The amp was just serviced by a former Linear Power tech and it was Itchy's decision to test the amplifier. I'm just showing the results. By the way, it survived the test fine.

I recorded a short clip showing the 4 ohm bridged test at 1% THD and will link to it here as soon as it's finished uploading/processing at YouTube

[trickyricky]

Am guessing each side side did about 655 @4 ohms mono.

[Eric D]

15 seconds is about 15 times more time than you need to fry an amplifier when load testing it.

I am all for testing amplifiers, I am just not for testing rare or limited edition ones. The "Off Road" is a pair of bone stock Ti600.2 boards in a custom chassis. If anyone wanted to know the power, they could acquire a Ti600.2 and load test that. If the boards in the "Off Road" were damaged, it would require repair, and personally a repaired limited edition amplifier is worth a lot less to me than an original untouched one is.

With that in mind though, if the caps have been replaced on this amp, that alone would reduce its value. But, we are talking about two amps with no others in existence so its value would be hard to judge with repairs or without repairs.

Maybe a good comparison would be like taking serial #1 of the Porsche 911 from some special year and drag racing it. What is drag racing this car going to prove, especially when you could perform the same test on serial #492 and get the same results?

[bigdwiz]

Am guessing each side side did about 655 @4 ohms mono.

Depending on the input voltage, you could be dead on

It did close to 700w per side at 4 ohms mono with 14.2V 1% THD (starting voltage 15, dropped to 14.2, I was trying to hit 14.4 for comparison sake)

Erik, I get what you are saying and don't say I disagree...again, this is not my amp and it wasn't my decision to have it tested. I take it Itchy has another theory; He'll not only have an ultra-rare amp, but this amp with it's output power proven on video. Might make it even more desirable? Anybody's guess, but the fact is the amps belong to him and it's his choice what he decides to do with them

[trickyricky]

If you could strap both amps for a Mono output, then you could say you have an amplifier capable of 1200watts @8ohm Who else can say they have an amplifier capable of that much power at 8ohms.

[bigdwiz]

Updated original post with 4 ohm certified bridged run (rated 600W x 2). Full test coming soon, enjoy!

[Kirghiz]

If you could strap both amps for a Mono output, then you could say you have an amplifier capable of 1200watts @8ohm Who else can say they have an amplifier capable of that much power at 8ohms.

You could feed that to a dual 4 sub at the same THD. You say potato, I say pototo.

[trickyricky]

I told ya so , I have a couple of ZX600ti's and they did pretty much the same power when I bench tested them. Around 650watts @4ohm mono with at 13.6v .

[thedeal7235]

Thanx Dereck, tried to message u on ytube( phoenixgold1234), can u please dyno a ti500.4, or zx 450 bridged at 2ohms? I swear my ti 500.4 bridged rear on my 2ohm subs has MORE output than 300rms- thanx in advance- Christian

[vwdude]

That's a badass result. I know the whole argument about it being rare and all, but two things
1) don't kill the messenger. Dereck was just asked to test it, he owner knew what he was getting himself I to(or at least should have known the dangers)
2) the owner of such a rare amp is free to do with it as they please. Hey can drop it off a cliff if they so choose.

I know that it's tough to witness such a rare item being put to the test, but you have to remind yourself that it's privately owned and that owner is free to kill it of he wants.

Dereck, I'm still waiting on the green light to test the Gates' amp. Once I have the green light then were good to go.

[bigdwiz]

Thanx Dereck, tried to message u on ytube( phoenixgold1234), can u please dyno a ti500.4, or zx 450 bridged at 2ohms? I swear my ti 500.4 bridged rear on my 2ohm subs has MORE output than 300rms- thanx in advance- Christian

Hey man, thanks for contacting me. I don't have either of those amps to test at the moment. From my experience with this amp, it will handle 2 ohms mono, but doesn't put out more power than 4 ohms mono, yet is much less efficient and draws more current.

[itchnertamatoa]

mind if I step in?

Eric, I hear what you're saying about me wanting to test these ones and not another stock Ti600.2
Reason I asked to test them is I plan on using them once they get to Tahiti and wanted to make sure they were 110% fully operationnal ...
The same applies to cap replacement ..
Not sure if the Ti were prone to cap failure or not, and didn't want to take the risk of cap failure onc einstalled and burning through the board (I still have one of your repair job in mind where you had to redo part of the PCB) and don't know/trust anyone in Tahiti to do such a job properly on this kind of amp ... I'm not into shipping them back and forth to do a repair job (which could have been avoided) ...

Anyway, I asked Dereck to test the amps, and take all the blame for it
I knew (and still know) what I was getting into in doing so, and if it were to be done again, I'd do it again ...

[Eric D]

I stated my personal opinion that is it not too smart to load test a rare amplifier. Apparently this offended some people here as they figured I was trying to tell others what to do with their own items. I still stand by my original point, and I am not placing any blame on bigdwiz for doing what was asked of him.

I personally own a rare and irreplaceable PG amp, which at one point I had intentions to use. My solution was to purchase a "normal" used amplifier with the same board, and then I would swap them in my rare amp for when I planned to use it. This way the original board retained its original leaking capacitors and its original serial numbers to match the chassis. If I ever sell the amp I would put it back to the way it was and probably throw the "donor" board in the sale as part of the deal for the next user.

Does anyone have to do what I did? No, they don't. All I know is did not want to either damage or otherwise diminish the value of the original equipment.

The other point along with this is that it seems 90% (or more) of people on this forum buy older amps with great intentions to use them, and they never actually do. I know that with every amp I buy, I try to maximize its market value, as I never know when I may need to sell it again for any number of reasons.

Imagine if the ZX1200ti caught fire while under load test? I am pretty confident the person testing the amp would feel bad over the deal as they would fear a mistake made in their testing, I am also pretty confident the person who did the work on the amp would feel bad, questioning any possible mistake they could have made doing their work, and I am almost 100% confident the owner of the amp would feel bad knowing their amplifier is now almost worthless in value.

So is it worth it?

It is not worth it to me, that is for sure, but that does not mean it is not worth it to someone else. To give a little bit more perspective, I am so anal about my rare amps, some of them I have never even powered up. For all I know they might not even work. But, some of them were purchased with the understanding they were new in box, and not only do I not want to risk any potential damage using them, I don't even want to scratch the terminal screws, thus dropping them from "new" to "used" status...

[itchnertamatoa]

point taken Eric, and I was never offended in any way by your comments ...

[vwdude]

I stated my personal opinion that is it not too smart to load test a rare amplifier. Apparently this offended some people here as they figured I was trying to tell others what to do with their own items. I still stand by my original point, and I am not placing any blame on bigdwiz for doing what was asked of him.

I personally own a rare and irreplaceable PG amp, which at one point I had intentions to use. My solution was to purchase a "normal" used amplifier with the same board, and then I would swap them in my rare amp for when I planned to use it. This way the original board retained its original leaking capacitors and its original serial numbers to match the chassis. If I ever sell the amp I would put it back to the way it was and probably throw the "donor" board in the sale as part of the deal for the next user.

Does anyone have to do what I did? No, they don't. All I know is did not want to either damage or otherwise diminish the value of the original equipment.

The other point along with this is that it seems 90% (or more) of people on this forum buy older amps with great intentions to use them, and they never actually do. I know that with every amp I buy, I try to maximize its market value, as I never know when I may need to sell it again for any number of reasons.

Imagine if the ZX1200ti caught fire while under load test? I am pretty confident the person testing the amp would feel bad over the deal as they would fear a mistake made in their testing, I am also pretty confident the person who did the work on the amp would feel bad, questioning any possible mistake they could have made doing their work, and I am almost 100% confident the owner of the amp would feel bad knowing their amplifier is now almost worthless in value.

So is it worth it?

It is not worth it to me, that is for sure, but that does not mean it is not worth it to someone else. To give a little bit more perspective, I am so anal about my rare amps, some of them I have never even powered up. For all I know they might not even work. But, some of them were purchased with the understanding they were new in box, and not only do I not want to risk any potential damage using them, I don't even want to scratch the terminal screws, thus dropping them from "new" to "used" status...

You have some excellent points. That's very smart about the spare board. On this off road amp it would work as it's just two ordinary amp boards. Uf the combined status is what makes it rare.

[marko]

I think very few people would consider an LE amp devalued by having the input caps swapped out, but each to their own I guess . IMO if the caps are carefully chosen to match the original ones as close as possible in size/color/appearance then it need not be an issue.

Mark.

PS- Hifonics Colossus does 1200wrms bridged @ 8ohms!

[trickyricky]

The original caps have a white round sticker on the top of a cap with year date hand written.

,