Wonderful zpa thread derailment

[stipud]

if you show me a zpa 3 or 5 that you fixed like that and i will shut my trap....but im quite certain you cant...that goes for you and any other member on this board that is a repair guru... im pretty sure you never ran across a zpa that was an easy fix because they dont exist...i was being nice and realistic and all you do is get mad...im not talking about stories im talking about proof....tell me the total for ordering parts and shipping the amp both ways and how much it cost when it is all said and done....just show me and i will not talk about it again.

I've never had to fix a ZPA... i've never seen one broken. Two ZX amps and an M series are the only PG amps I have fixed. One of the ZXes had a crossover pot issue that was solved with contact cleaner, and Fuzzy's M series had a single loose resistor on the board. The other ZX needed a new fan... so for all three of those fixes, it cost me approximately a whopping $15. Sorry man, but I don't keep receipts for contact cleaner and fans around just to prove pointless arguments online. So how about YOU prove to ME that all ZPAs cost $150 and above to repair. I have nothing to prove to you.

There aren't any huge differences between the PG amplifiers... when it gets down to the details, they use a lot of the same design goals in each of the lines. An issue with a ZPA doesn't necessarily mean that it's irrepairable. It COULD be, but it also COULD be a simple problem, and this is why we are trying to help Marko diagnose and solve his issue, rather than throwing out some blanket statement about throwing the amplifier out.

And what's this about shipping the amps back and forth? Marko is perfectly capable of repairing his own amplifiers by himself, without having to add international shipping into the equation. Assuming the failure is replacement of FETs and maybe a few auxilliary resistors, etc, you're still talking pennies compared to the cost of a new amplifier (which you WOULD have to add in shipping costs for).

It's pretty obvious that if an amplifier costs more to repair than it costs for a new one that you won't bother with the ordeal of going further. I am simply disagreeing with you that all or even most of these ZPAs can't be fixed, and are "worth trash".

[bdubs767]

I KNOW FOR A fact the an EE on the board was able to bring a ZPA back to life...

[stipud]

im very knowledgeable when it comes to cars and i have been in the loop for years online and offline for my state....so if anyone came to a board or just on the street and was like hey i have a blown 350 and i want to rebuild it...the first things that would come up are is it late model or a numbers matching block for a restore "ms/route/bandit,outlaw amp"....for the numbers matching block you go out of your way to save it for the fact that its crucial for the car....but if its just a late model engine like the "zpa" they would ask how bad the block is and if it was so far gone it would be more cost effective to just get a short black and stroke it over....but these amps arent motors they dont need to be compared to motors they are just boards and circuits....even when you speak of them like motors the answers are still clear as day...

That makes perfect sense, but that's not what you said in the ZPA post, and that is what I am arguing against. Let me quote you:

just find a new one....with all the time and money u will spend trying to fix it before u give up and ship it to the states and whatever else is not worh it....especially since something else will more than likey bomb out on that amp when it does get fixed....you can find a nice working one for the cost it will finally take to fix that one....i hope that helps you now

Now let's see here. Assume a car came in with a disconnected sparkplug wire. By your statement in the other thread, the same mechanic would be telling the person to throw the engine out and get a new car. What's the point of diagnosis or even trying to fix it yourself when it's just going to break again? The cost of shipping the car back to the factory plus parts would be just as expensive as getting a new car in the first place, right?

Of course that doesn't make any sense... so really we are arguing the same point here. The problem is the sweeping generalizations that you made.

Bdubs just reminded me... I believe the last repaired ZPA on the board cost $30 to fix, and that's including some textured spraypaint for cosmetic issues. A blown trace on the board was rewired, amongst a few other minor fixes. Whoop-dee-doo.

I've made my point. I am done arguing with you for now

[bdubs767]

Bdubs just reminded me... I believe the last repaired ZPA on the board cost $30 to fix, and that's including some textured spraypaint for cosmetic issues. A blown trace on the board was rewired, amongst a few other minor fixes. Whoop-dee-doo.

I've made my point. I am done arguing with you for now

I know for a fact it works too, I have it sitting next to me as I type for at least another day .

[marko]

and the last zpa cecil helped me fix cost maybe $50 in parts, can't rememeber exactly, had 12 new caps and 16 new input fets. changing caps is routine maintenance on any old pg amp anyway.

if it hasn't got a hole the size of calcutta in it i'll do my best to fix it

this is a typical "parts only amp"

[Bfowler]

if you show me a zpa 3 or 5 that you fixed like that and i will shut my trap....but im quite certain you cant...that goes for you and any other member on this board that is a repair guru... im pretty sure you never ran across a zpa that was an easy fix because they dont exist...i was being nice and realistic and all you do is get mad...im not talking about stories im talking about proof....tell me the total for ordering parts and shipping the amp both ways and how much it cost when it is all said and done....just show me and i will not talk about it again.

im very knowledgeable when it comes to cars and i have been in the loop for years online and offline for my state....so if anyone came to a board or just on the street and was like hey i have a blown 350 and i want to rebuild it...the first things that would come up are is it late model or a numbers matching block for a restore "ms/route/bandit,outlaw amp"....for the numbers matching block you go out of your way to save it for the fact that its crucial for the car....but if its just a late model engine like the "zpa" they would ask how bad the block is and if it was so far gone it would be more cost effective to just get a short black and stroke it over....but these amps arent motors they dont need to be compared to motors they are just boards and circuits....even when you speak of them like motors the answers are still clear as day...

another thing to consider is it isn't always just about financial sense. often times its a labor of love, and an adventure. a test of ones self to see if you can fix it, or make something great again.

its like me wanting to fix up a bmw 2002, knowing damn well i could have bought a 95 3 series with more potential and probably less money. but its sentimental and a classic. just my take on it.

[1moreamp]

if you show me a zpa 3 or 5 that you fixed like that and i will shut my trap....but im quite certain you cant...that goes for you and any other member on this board that is a repair guru... im pretty sure you never ran across a zpa that was an easy fix because they dont exist...i was being nice and realistic and all you do is get mad...im not talking about stories im talking about proof....tell me the total for ordering parts and shipping the amp both ways and how much it cost when it is all said and done....just show me and i will not talk about it again. Twisted Evil

OK I'll call you on that and can show you my white ZPA 0.5 I bought off e-bay about three years ago for $160.00 shipped. The owner was too stupid to read the instructions on how to use the BLD, and shot a overload through the amp.

Total cost to replace 6 each 2 cents resistors that acted like fuses to protect the amp from a blithering idiot was 12 cents to repair.

So there I showed ya, now STFU !!!
I have pics also if your really as hard to convince as i am beginning to think


Oh thanks for the Guru rating, But I have also been called a 'Amp God' long ago, but up till meeting you was I was to polite to share that with anyone.

Your just like the rest of the un-educated people out there that buy amps and plow them thinking you know more than the Engineer that went to school and then designed a work of Art so people like yourself could stand up and talk shit about something you don't even understand. And can't even begin to fix after you do your best to show the amp who's boss, yeah right ...

The ZPA was a high end design for the more mature audience of car audio, not some person trying to blow it up by getting its max power rating on a constant basis. , usually driving bass loud enough to make Jesus rise from the dead and shake his head...
Any laymen should be able to look at the lack of a ten ton heatsinks and see the Carver influence in the amp. Any one should see no sinks means NO max power on a constant basis...but you have to be thinking to see these things...

Oh yeah this means ZX and TI lines also bight guy, big difference was a tightly regulated power supply with built in current limit for unknowing people like you...that gotta have max power all day long while the entire neighborhood wishes your shit was stolen by one of your friends..

I usually get my hard work handed back to me melted by people like you, But I got a fix for your type, I usually slip people like you a loner amp of my choosing so the next time I see you I get to hear about how my loner amp blew all your speakers three times till you turned your sound down.

Yes I mean old man, but I usually get you young snots trained after a while, it usually just takes a few ass kicking's to do it to, or a couple sets of new woofers for your jacked up ride.


NOW as long as I am helping someone on this forum I expect you to stay clear of me and my efforts to help another member. If you can't I will appeal to the operators to BAN you ass, You will be #4 this year.


DO WE HAVE A UNDERSTANDING CAPTAIN KNOW IT ALL ???????


PS go learn how to fix or build a amp before you come around me and jack me up like you did while I was trying to helping someone for free.


Tom I think I have closed this thread would you be so kind to lock it for me please ?? Thanks My friend C

[theburb]

NOW as long as I am helping someone on this forum I expect you to stay clear of me and my efforts to help another member. If you can't I will appeal to the operators to BAN you ass, You will be #4 this year.


DO WE HAVE A UNDERSTANDING CAPTAIN KNOW IT ALL ???????


PS go learn how to fix or build a amp before you come around me and jack me up like you did while I was trying to helping someone for free.

Tom I think I have closed this thread would you be so kind to lock it for me please ?? Thanks My friend C

i didnt know that marko made the topic that only you could answer in...im sorry i thought this was an open forum...i will be sure to run all my post through u first next time

also i really dont have time right now to get into it with you 1moreamp...but i will touch on this topic again when i get back on here....you are in the derailment thread of the zpa saga so all this bs about asking to get me banned is just lame..

ps....board mod if you want to delete this thread go for it...i cant see this going past the few memory lane trips that me and a few other members have been taking....so if it is here its here....if its not then i will respect that.

[stipud]

Sorry guys I think we are getting a bit out of hand here... nobody is going to get banned, we just had a simple disagreement. But I thank you for coming out to defend me . I'll take the blame for this getting so bad here... it was not my intention to get it this heated... I was just trying to show theburb not to make such blanket statements, because many of us can and do infact repair amplifiers for very cheap.

Do you see what Bfowler means though? It's definitely a labor of love thing... we all hold our amps dearly. I guess this is why these amp bashing threads always end up in such a heated debate.

My apologies to everyone for getting out of hand here. Now let's resume the rational discourse and debate like gentlemen, shall we?

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

My apologies to everyone for getting out of hand here. Now let's resume the rational discourse and debate like gentlemen, shall we?

Thank you, Tom.

I have a much better time participating in this forum when the hostility is at a minimum but I have to admit, I was tempted to say something other than what I did to theburb about his "trash" statement... however, I refrained because hostility sucks and I didn't want to initiate it.

I have respect for everyone participating in this thread because their opinions come from real experience. Regardless if I agree with your opinions, I respect them. I certainly don't think my M amps are trash but if theburb believes that and wants to say that, that's fine. I just think it was inappropriately dragged into a thread where someone just wanted some help, not a whole fucking argument about amp design, quality, historical repair costs and success, etc.

Either way, I think we can do two things:

1. Drop it.

2. Discuss it like respectful human beings in the appropriate place.

I'm sure it's already been made clear but I just wanted to state it once more because I do feel fairly strongly about harboring hostility on this forum. We're a great gang but that doesn't mean things never get out of hand.

Try to have respect for others even during disagreement, please.

[marko]

^^^^^^^agreed^^^^^^^^^

i always tend to bite my tongue and keep the peace, we all have opinions but we're all here because we love phoenix gold, be it an m,ms, zpa or even later newer stuff we have pg in our heart so we should be helping each other as much as possible!

so far i've fixed about 6 pg amps that i can remember of and the satisfaction i get from fixing it is why i do it again, knowing that another piece of pg heritage lives on

[444 FED]

While I wouldn't say the ZPA are trash bin bait, they were WAY to finiky for what they were market as, and what you payed for them. Unfortunatly the value was not with these amps.

Great looking, sounded awesome, but the power they they apparently had, could not really be utilized.

If I'm going to spend 4 digit prices on a single two channel amp, I had better be able to play it full jam for a VERY long time and not worry the entire time I'm doing it that the magic smoke might be let out of the amp, because I want to enjoy the full abilities of what the amp should have been able to do.

After a while people started using these ONLY for front amps, simple because they already had them, spent way too much money on them, and couldn't get any money back out of them, or at least not enough to justify selling them.

A friend of mine who I installed a few systems for when I worked at the first car audio shop back I did, back in the early '90s, had many systems, then when he got his truck, he opted for all PG, including the ZPA series of amps, because they were the new hot ticket, well he rarely ever had any subs going because the amp would blow after only being installed for a short amount of of time, everything externally was perfect, large charge system, including alternator, large power wire, etc. His front stage would keep singing though, off the ZPA 0.3. Eventually I believe an MS275 was installed inplace of the ZPA 0.5 so that he had some subs rocking and I think that amp ended up remaining in there. Unfortunaly after all the hassle of this amp, he grew tired of the car audio scene and has since just left the OEM audio systems in his vehicles since.

I think to repair an amp like this depends on what it is you're going to do with it. For a front stage yeah, repair it, to be used with subs nope, send it to a guy that will use it for a front stage.

On the flip side I have seen a few of these amps live for many years being used for sub bass, and not by "casual" listeners either, kids that pound the shit out of them.

Myself, I tend to steer clear of the ZPA amps, just because I've known far too many people that had problems with them.

[1moreamp]

While I wouldn't say the ZPA are trash bin bait, they were WAY to finiky for what they were market as, and what you payed for them. Unfortunatly the value was not with these amps.

Great looking, sounded awesome, but the power they they apparently had, could not really be utilized.

If I'm going to spend 4 digit prices on a single two channel amp, I had better be able to play it full jam for a VERY long time and not worry the entire time I'm doing it that the magic smoke might be let out of the amp, because I want to enjoy the full abilities of what the amp should have been able to do.

After a while people started using these ONLY for front amps, simple because they already had them, spent way too much money on them, and couldn't get any money back out of them, or at least not enough to justify selling them.

A friend of mine who I installed a few systems for when I worked at the first car audio shop back I did, back in the early '90s, had many systems, then when he got his truck, he opted for all PG, including the ZPA series of amps, because they were the new hot ticket, well he rarely ever had any subs going because the amp would blow after only being installed for a short amount of of time, everything externally was perfect, large charge system, including alternator, large power wire, etc. His front stage would keep singing though, off the ZPA 0.3. Eventually I believe an MS275 was installed inplace of the ZPA 0.5 so that he had some subs rocking and I think that amp ended up remaining in there. Unfortunaly after all the hassle of this amp, he grew tired of the car audio scene and has since just left the OEM audio systems in his vehicles since.

I think to repair an amp like this depends on what it is you're going to do with it. For a front stage yeah, repair it, to be used with subs nope, send it to a guy that will use it for a front stage.

On the flip side I have seen a few of these amps live for many years being used for sub bass, and not by "casual" listeners either, kids that pound the shit out of them.

Myself, I tend to steer clear of the ZPA amps, just because I've known far too many people that had problems with them.

Now that I am more composed, I would like to say that your post was most accurate, and helpful. I own three ZPA's and would never run them on bass. I look at them and see a wonderful engineering design, with certain short comings as you described above.

The sinking system was never there to allow for a constant use of there amazing power capabilities.

But for a highs amp, I feel they represented a zenith in PG design. I feel they had the right stuff, just not in the correct sink. This and PG's forward marketing method of telling folks how to bypass safety's internal to the amp the sneak around a safe design to get 1600 watts out of them was a BIG mistake on PG's part.

The later ZX line had heat issues also, and fan failures, But they consistently produced more power then they were rated at also.

Only in the TI line did PG get a grip on this fan cooled sink-less design by regulating the power supply more tightly and adding more heat sensing protection to reduce the amps power under extreme heat loads.

I also agree that the MS line was a battleship of a amp, But even it would over heat in its final expression the venerable MS-2250 < original> hence the shroud that came about for thet amp that had + & - 63 volt rails inside.

PG has always delivered power, always. And although some of their designs lacked sink engineering for the duty most car enthusiast's needed. I still feel compelled to stay with PG, and as for my three ZPA's well they will never be sold. I don't believe there will ever be a suitable replacement made in the future for these unique amps. I will never run bass on mine, and I will attempt to increase cooling in any fashion possible, as I do agree and see this as being the main issue with ownership of the amps.


444FED your post was most relevant and honest, Thank you ! I do agree with the facts you stated. Luckily I having been involved with amps over so many years and seeing the issues can and will rework my amps to a higher level of performance.

[Fatii]

sry to interrupt u ... but

"edit"
"OK I'll call you on that and can show you my white ZPA 0.5 I bought off e-bay about three years ago for $160.00 shipped. The owner was too stupid to read the instructions on how to use the BLD, and shot a overload through the amp. "

what is a BLD!? plz make me understand =)

[AVICJR]

BLD=balanced line driver

[brenzbmr@sb]

okay

i used my zpa 0.5 with the diodes cut so it banged about 1500 plus

i used it on two 12w7s, two 9515s one elite 12d

i never once had a problem doing it that way.

i fed 7 volts on the inputs always ran 1 guage or bigger to the amp and also beat the crap out of it..

low impedence to name one, yeah that amp pushed hard.

when i put it my nissan off the 180 amp alternator it shined.

so as far as running the for mids and highs i personally disagree.

i installed a total of 6 systems other then mine using zpa 0.5 for bass.

ran them fuckers hard.

always preformed exept for one that the fans failed on it.

we even did 6 type r 12s in a dodge full size ported using one zpa .5'

for my friends nephew at a high school sound off.

he shut down guys running way more power

good build but yet very finiky for some.

now my amp is actually not working and that is my fault because i took it a part to clean the sinks and damaged a fet..

im gonna one day send it to cecil.........

aloha

[ezamps]

and the last zpa cecil helped me fix cost maybe $50 in parts, can't rememeber exactly, had 12 new caps and 16 new input fets. changing caps is routine maintenance on any old pg amp anyway.

if it hasn't got a hole the size of calcutta in it i'll do my best to fix it

this is a typical "parts only amp"

Jeebus Christ! I've never seen any amp THAT bad. Well, I have, but from Fultron (LOL). I've repaired a few ZPAs, but several years ago when they were still "newish". I didn't like that the ZPA 0.5 draws 7.0A at idle. I was concerned by this at bias-tweaking time, but was confirmed by a PG engineer. Oh well!!

[ezamps]

if you show me a zpa 3 or 5 that you fixed like that and i will shut my trap....but im quite certain you cant...that goes for you and any other member on this board that is a repair guru... im pretty sure you never ran across a zpa that was an easy fix because they dont exist...i was being nice and realistic and all you do is get mad...im not talking about stories im talking about proof....tell me the total for ordering parts and shipping the amp both ways and how much it cost when it is all said and done....just show me and i will not talk about it again.

Never. The ZPA was, without question, a very expensive amplifier to repair. $100 in parts is NOT out of the question; if you consider standard markup for parts. Typically, I had to replace several pairs of outputs and all the PS FETs in any given ZPA. I attributed these failures to neglegent abuse, but I was about 19 at the time I did these repairs. More experience tells me that there could have been design issues.

I have never, and never will be a "shotgun" repairman. I was taught the good old method of component level repair. To this day, the most expensive car audio repair I have performed was a Lexus indash (Pioneer) CD at $550 [kids thought it was a slot machine] and a PG Frank Amp'N'Stein (for obvious reasons). A close second was the ZPA amps. The sheer number of parts and their prices always made PGs expensive repairs.

Let me add that it is possible to rebuild an amp like marko has posted. PCBs can be rebuilt just like the original, but it helps to have an original unit on hand. I do stuff like this. I built an entire PPI clone from schematics and pictures. Then I lost the file in a drive crash I have a really old US Amps KA250 from 1990 (old for US Amps, anyway) that I've stripped all the parts off, scanned in the board and am planning to rebuild with a new board that isn't crispy.

It all depends on how much time and money you want to invest in a project like this. I think a lot of hobbies are fruitless, except this one.