New Kiwi Member Needs Helping Flying!

Carlwalski · Post by **Carlwalski** » Sat May 03, 2008 9:49 am

Hey lads,

Carl's the name and I'm looking at installing some subs in my 2000 Subaru GTB wagon, nothing hard out in terms of show style plexiglass, neons etc, not my scene, just after loud booming/punchy bass - ear bleeding loud. I have 2 x Xmax 12: subs at present, had them for 3 or 4 years now but I want to upgrade to some of the modern stuff. I'm not rich but I never do things by halves, money is an issue but I will go without food to give my cars the best.

My current choice is:

3 x 12" Phoenix Gold RSDc12 Subs
3 x Alpine PDX-1.1000 Amplifiers
Phoenix Gold Ryval 6.5" 400watt Components Run by,
Phoenix Gold Ryval 500watt 2 channel amp

I like the Alpine for their size and I'm hoping that 1 per sub should crank out the goods of the RSDc subs. I'm short on space as the box (below photo-shops, car will be like then when finished, hasn't got the rims yet) will be removable via attaching plates for surfing trips. So, my plan short of taking out the spare wheel, not really wanting to do that is to run 2 of the PDXs under the front seats and 1 under the rear seat along with the 500watt Ryval. Could I fit 2 PDXs under one seat? The seat is average in room under there.

Is this set up any good? I'm after loud as possible. The boxes I've looked at are around 4.5Cu Ft and I can go as wide as 40" and up to 20" deep, so, if I'm learning that is fine for the RSDc 12 subs. The box will be sealed for better SQ. What I'm confused about is the RSDc's output rms and watt wise. Some say max of 1,200 some say 2,000 and if these are the baddest ever, why "only" 600rms vs the Titanium Elites 1,200rms?? I looked for and was almost set on the Phoenix Gold Ti12D Titanium Elite series which are no longer made, but 1) no one ships to New Zealand and 2) Well, that's it really lol.

My questions in short:

1) Any other small high powered (1,000rms+) amps worth considering that can fit under seats?

2) Are they under powering for the sub (1amp=1sub) or will they be more than adequate?

3) From searching this "Phorum", the PDXs are known to heat up, true?

4) 3 x PG Ti12D Titanium Elites or 3 x PG RSDC12s for my amp set up?

Sorry for the huge ugly post but I thought the more info I can give you on what I'm wanting the better you can help me. As a long time forum person, nothing worse than a newb with a vague question. If you need to know more please ask.

Cheers guys,
Carl

Post by **Wakeup** » Sat May 03, 2008 10:05 am

Welcome to the forums carl! Nice post...I am at work and dont have the time to chime in really...but there will be some other members here that will post. It is the weekend, so you may not have MANY responses till the next couple days! Again welcome! I have 1 single TI 12 D Elite...takes lots of power to make that thing move! and also needs a decent sized box I believe....

Haven't messed with the 12 RSDC's yet...but I hope to soon. (lots of reviews on that sub in the forum if you do some SEARCHING....I am sure you will find them!

gkitching · Post by **gkitching** » Sat May 03, 2008 10:31 am

Welcome! Your avaitar rocks! Angus Rules!

I guess the first question would be do you have the currant capability for that much power? A quick estimation would be 250+ amps of currant draw.

I have no personal experience with the Alpine amps but have been hearing bad things about thier reliability. Don't know if it was a design thing or a production problem that may have been worked out but you may want to dig into that a little deeper.

Sounds like availability may dictate which subs you go with.

Post by **AVICJR** » Sat May 03, 2008 11:13 am

The Ti Elite sub is a power hungry sub. If you are only putting ~ 1K watts of power then you will not be getting the full potential of each sub. You would probably save money if you went with 3 X 12" RSDC and it would be a better match wattage wise.

Post by **Francious70** » Sat May 03, 2008 4:26 pm

Welcome to the phorum mang.

Carlwalski · Post by **Carlwalski** » Sat May 03, 2008 7:27 pm

Thanks guys for the warm welcome.

The only place I've found who sells the Ti12D Elite subs worldwide is a place on eBay called: "indoaudio". Doing some searches and viewing his feedback he isn't the best, it's like 50/50. Some say he stole money and is slow at shipping but he's the only one I can get them from if I go that way, tough call. Thing is, if I do get shafted by this guy it's 100% my fault as I went into it with eyes wide open.

gkitching - Thanks mate, I'm a HUGE AC/DC fan!!

I will be getting a replacement battery and anything else to help my draw. The stereo guys will do what they have to do and I'll probably upgrade to an aftermarket alternator as well.

AVICJR - I see what you mean, so, 1,000rms into each sub rated at 600rms/1,2000watts wouldn't be suffice? Are there any large subs that perhaps I could use 2 of to run 3? I maybe able to put them under the front seats, no? I've did a lot of searching on the net, I'm looking around 20" in length for the bigger ones. Basically, what rms could I throw at the ti12D Elilte/Rsdc 12" subs safely. Last thing, if I purchased a, say "1,800rms amp" and put it to 1 sub each am I able to run the amp at a lower rating and go up until the stereo install guys locally say it's reach the safest limit. So, I'd have the grunt available but run it lower? Hope that makes sense.

fordtough1 · Post by **fordtough1** » Sat May 03, 2008 8:45 pm

Carlwalski wrote: The only place I've found who sells the Ti12D Elite subs worldwide is a place on eBay called: "indoaudio". Doing some searches and viewing his feedback he isn't the best, it's like 50/50. Some say he stole money and is slow at shipping but he's the only one I can get them from if I go that way, tough call. Thing is, if I do get shafted by this guy it's 100% my fault as I went into it with eyes wide open.

For what it's worth, I've dealt with indoaudio several times in the past and have never had bad luck with them, but I agree their feedback isn't the best.

Welcome to the Phorum though.

Oh, and AC/DC rocks!!!!

Carlwalski · Post by **Carlwalski** » Sat May 03, 2008 9:24 pm

Thanks mate. I PMed Indoaudio via eBay to ask if they were in stock and I put nicely that I was wary of him due to searches and feedback and that I wanted reassurance. He said his feedback isn't good and that was mainly due to the fact they receive so many orders, he said to work with him, not sure yet but I may take the risk. I'd have them shipped FedEx or UPS 2-3 day express to be safe and get them here quickly, no excuses.

OK, let's get down to the nitty gritty.

3 x Ti12D Titanium Elite subs or 3 x RSDC 12" Subs? (If both received 1,200rms)

Also, I decided that I will have to bite the bullet and sacrifice the spare wheel in favour of the modern tube seals found in Mercs, Chryslers and lots of modern cars. I've had 1 puncher in 10 years worth of driving, enthusiastically. So, I'm prepared to remove the spare in order to get the desired sounds I want, it's the only way to get some bigger amps.

I have taken some photos of my Subaru wagons rear area. The measurements for the spare rim space offer good options for me now. The measurements are: width from side to side is around: 24-25" MAX. From front to back length it's: 24-25" MAX and the depth is: 7 to 7-1/2". These are safe measurements meaning I'm not bull shitting myself by taking the biggest digit, I could say wider etc but this is safe diameters to work with. The sub box I can build is up to 25" in width and 42" wide and around 14-15" in height. So, I have room to work with. Of course, this will all be sealed professional and finished off nicely, matching carpet etc.

For amplifiers, I've been and was (prior to my size restrictions) looking at the Phoenix Gold Rsd1200.1 amp rated at 1000rms @ 2ohms, would 1 of these run the Elite or RSDC12's well? What ever I get at this stage it will be 1 amp per 12" sub. It's 19.25" so will fit in well. Could I run 3 (1 per sub) and get a 4th and use that 4th to go to all 3 as a "power adder" amp, is that possible? Please suggest options for amps, I don't mind going brand-x for performance but I must and will only use Phoenix Gold subs!!

Thanks everyone,
Carlwalski

Carlwalski · Post by **Carlwalski** » Sat May 03, 2008 9:25 pm

A few more photos to help:

Post by **stipud** » Sat May 03, 2008 11:44 pm

I have owned the Ti Elite and RSDc's... I prefer the sound of the RSDc's personally, plus they are far more efficient. I find that the Ti Elites don't sound best until you have a good 2000 watts on em... then they are simply amazing

Post by **AVICJR** » Sun May 04, 2008 12:30 am

OK, let me put it this way then: a Ti Elite sub on 1200 RMS is like having a Lamborghini. BUT you can only go 55 MPH in it. Yes, it will get you from point A to point B, but you will never get to see what it's like to go as fast as the car was intended. With the power you will use go with the RSDC.

I am trading out my 1 Ti Elite for 2 RSDC this summer for the same reason above.

Carlwalski · Post by **Carlwalski** » Sun May 04, 2008 1:34 am

Thanks guys, OK, tell me what I need to do top speed in either sub, I'm not good with sound and sound output and thought 1,200rms was really good and quite a bit, obviously not lol. What can I throw at either sub rms/watt wise? 2000 per sub? What other problems may one run into having 3 x 2000 amplifiers in a car? Drainage? What bran subs offer reputable well known 2000rms Watt amps?

Cheers,
Carl

Carlwalski · Post by **Carlwalski** » Sun May 04, 2008 2:16 am

Just doing some searches looking for 2000rms+ amplifiers, just not sure on if they are any good.
Perhaps a little input into these:

Earthquake PHD5000W - 3000 RMS @ 2 Ohms Monoblock Amplifier - US$ 399.95 (15" wide = perfect for me).
http://www.lightav.com/car/earth/amps2005.html

Earthquake PH10000W/D1 Digital Mono 3000 RMS @ 2ohms - (16.5" wide = perfect for me)
http://www.lightav.com/car/earth/amps.html

What are other reputable well know brands worth looking at? I've only heard of Earthquake and a couple of others in this list: http://www.lightav.com/car/amps/poweramps.html what about Power Acoustik? SPL Audio? Hifonics? Remember, I'm not after cheap, just the really good products, don't mind paying for the best (aka what you get for).

If I buy a 4,000rms amp, am I able to split the rated 4,000rms to 2 x 12" subs to get the 2,000rms you guys speak of? Or, am I better off getting 3 x 2,000rms+ amplifiers?

Thanks guys, sorry about all the questions.

tipracer · Post by **tipracer** » Sun May 04, 2008 7:16 am

With the ti's you need to give them as much power as you can, the limitation in that car will be your need for high amperage, on the order of 100 to 120 amps per sub, you will be able to get it done for less amperage by using digital amps, IMO you should go with the rsdc....for the tis-- if you ran them at 2000 watts each they would be happy campers
good luck, btw I am a huge fan of the subie
hell just wall it off, put in a couple of 18 and a few really big amps....there is your loud

Carlwalski · Post by **Carlwalski** » Sun May 04, 2008 12:02 pm

LOL! Thanks mate, I would but this was suppose to be just a surf wagon but yet again me and cars......always have to do something to them lol. I'm still wanting somewhere to put bags/luggage and with the amps in the spare tire location I can still remove the box, if desired.

Yup, that's what I'm asking now I guess, if I go Ti12d Elites (x 3) what brand amplifiers should I go for that pump out 2,000rms+ The Earthquakes in my previous post seem perfect, small in size (15-16" length) and 3,000rms. I could run 3 of them and push 2,000+ into the Ti12s BUT I have no idea at all at how good they are. Some amps "say" #,###rms but who knows how true it is.

I'm thinking a cheap amp with "2,000rms" on the box may only put out a Phoenix Gold amps 800rms? lol Not sure....if you guys can find me a 3,000rms amp that the majority agrees on that's no wider than 24-25", that should be my problem solved.

Cheers,
Carl

Post by **AVICJR** » Sun May 04, 2008 4:16 pm

http://www.exilecaraudio.com/2007/produ ... el=x2400.1

or

http://www.exilecaraudio.com/2007/produ ... /?model=x5

Carlwalski · Post by **Carlwalski** » Sun May 04, 2008 5:00 pm

They look real nice but I was told (and should have mentioned - my bad) that I should look for 2 ohms only. I'm not even sure I know what ohms are, actually, I don't. I've seen 2, 4 and 1 ohms ratings on most amps before. He said if I could stick to 2 that would be ideal. That XR2400.1 says 4,800rms watts but "strapped", what does this mean? I'm guessing it's 2 together? If this is the case, I could still run them at 2ohms and they'd be 2,400rms??

Post by **AVICJR** » Sun May 04, 2008 7:14 pm

You are correct=strapped means two amps together and yes it will also present each amp with a two ohm load. Download and read the manual it will explain how to strap the amps together. 1600 watts per sub would be much better or you could cut down to two subs assuming you are still considering the Ti Elites.

Exile is a newer company from a couple of Ex Phoenix Gold employees so you can still count on a quality product. You can search this forum for more info on their products.

rlockwood · Post by **rlockwood** » Sun May 04, 2008 7:18 pm

I believe all exile employees are registered here as well, if theres not a dealer in your area, contact morgan and he'll help you out..

gfunk_nz · Post by **gfunk_nz** » Sun May 04, 2008 8:42 pm

Hey Carl there's someone up north selling exile I believe, otherwise PM me I am an importer of a few brands here, I'm not one of the trademe importers that sell utter shite either, I only bring in high end.
I assume T&A Brooks are still doing PG here, I see it's still in a few shops, just don't see bugger all of it any more which is a shame.

yesterdaysyouth · Post by **yesterdaysyouth** » Mon May 05, 2008 9:27 am

Carl,
I can't really help you in choosing your setup, because I really don't know anything about the new stuff on the market, but I can tell you anything you wanna know about installing in that car...

First things first, you're gonna squat the ass end so bad that any wheel/tire combo that fills the rear tire wells will rub the sheet metal on the outside, and probally bend the spring perch on the struts. Been there done that...

Use birch plywood, since it is about the lightest thing you can use, and fiberglass whenever possible.

You're best bet for mounting amps in on the back of the back seats, nothing is gonna fit under the back seat, and if you have someone sit in the front seat, you'll see how much it sags down...

I actually mounted all my processors in the dash, and on the roof of the car. Lots of long cables, but when you're out of room, you get creative!

Oh yeah the roof!!!! We're talking about 40+sq. ft. of non-reinforced sheet metal here, so yeah it's gonna rattle, ALOT!!!! I would try a stick on sound damping material first, but I had to goto extremes with plywood, liquid nails, and expanding foam...

The alternator, you can forget about the stock one... it's probally catching fire as you speak of building this system. I managed to burn out several HO alts since I could only use a small case setup without some major mods...

I'll tell you about some of the systems i've had in my subaru.
When I first got it I had 4-12's in a V facing the rear, with 4 ms275's mounted behind the boxes, and on the rear of the back seats was an mq-430 if i remember right...

That was when i realized that tires and struts were more expensive than subs and amps, so I downsizsed to a pair of tens.... which just didn't cut it.

So then I went with a single 15, and glassed the tire well for max air space and minimum weight. Then I could mount the amps in between the wheel wells, which worked great, but made it a pain to adjust anything. So that's when all the processors went on the roof!

The final setup removed the sealed tire well enclosure and I built the biggest ported box I could fit in the back. I think it was like 7cu.ft. Even though it was birch plywood it still took and entire 4x8 sheet so it weighed about 50lbs. The amps went in the rack under the sub box in the tire well. With stock tires and wheels it worked!!

So .... good luck!

Carlwalski · Post by **Carlwalski** » Mon May 05, 2008 10:37 am

Thanks for all the help guys.

gfunk_nz - Thanks mate much appreciate but I myself am an importer with loads of orders under the belt, always cheap to cut out the middle man (as you'd know) so I'd only be paying you to do something I can do. It's hard to believe how cheap it is to go direct, shops are charging 2 x 3 times the cost down here, unbelievable!! lol

yesterdaysyouth - Thanks mate, I was concerned about added etc weight, 2 x 12 subs will be fine but as you said, anything larger will cause some real bum squat lol. I had always planned on running a big battery 750 or bigger and the alternator was going to get upgraded. I'll be running 18" wheels so this may be an issue, but nothing serious. What model Subaru did you have? BH5 Legacy? or something else like a WRX etc. Subarus are all different is all.

I did think about putting amps on the back of the seats but if I remove my sub box (which will happen) it's pointless having them on the back of the seats, when I put them down they will be in the way (if they go down - wire stretch).

I will put mine in the spare wheel compartment and have 4 or 5 vent airs and perhaps a fan installment to keep them cool.

I have a question, what is the sound difference between a wagon and sedan? I know that when I have music going in a room it sounds good, when I leave and close the door the bass is doubled/tripled. So, having had a sedan before with subs and having the back seat and trunk itself as "the door" will my wagon being free and unrestricted sound quieter ?? Hope this make sense.

Thanks everyone, your help and input is invaluable. Without it, I'd end up with cheap junk and a sound system that would be underpowered. People on forums never get enough praise for their free help.

Cheers lads,
Carl

yesterdaysyouth · Post by **yesterdaysyouth** » Mon May 05, 2008 11:07 am

Mine is a 96' legacy L, it's looks exactly like yours except the color....

I ran an optima red top, and the HO alt came from Ohio Generator..

When i put the amps in the wheel well I did have a bank of fans on one end and a vent on the other...

difference between a sedan and wagon, length! you should have right at 10ft. from the back glass to the front. So if you plan on tuning a ported box, this is a major consideration, because the resonant freq. of a wagon is much lower, thanks to that length....

and for what it's worth I had more sucess pointing the subs up, as opposed to back....

Carlwalski · Post by **Carlwalski** » Mon May 05, 2008 11:11 am

yesterdaysyouth - Thanks mate, mine's a 2000 Subaru so they are quite a bit different, still a wagon though. I will pass on the info on pointing the subs up to the car stereo company and see what they say, thanks for the tips!

UPDATE

OK guys, I called Phil @ Phoenix Gold and told him my hard time making a decision. He said the Elites are good subs but very inefficient and as the people on the forum said, need a lot of power to make any sound. Also, they are discontinued so coils and parts are no longer available and the nail in the coffin for me they weigh in at 48lbs per sub!?!?!

So, I asked him about the new RSDc spec subs and he said they were the best to date from Phoenix Gold followed by the Xmax series. Real good, loud clear quality subs that are efficient and weigh in at 16lbs each - MUCH better. So, my new combo is 3 x 12" RSDc124 spec subs and 3 x RSd600.1 Amps rated at a continuous 600rms of power that's 600rms to 600rms, perfect match.

I said people always run more rms at subs, could I run the RSDC subs at say 750 or 1,000rms, he said I could be couldn't guarantee how long they'd last or the quality of the sound. He said for ball park 3 RSDCs @ 600rms amp power should easily push 130-140db. Any thoughts on going for a bigger amp to push the RSDc124s harder? I feel much better after calling and actually getting somewhere to having my sound system.

Cheers guys,
Carl

gfunk_nz · Post by **gfunk_nz** » Tue May 06, 2008 12:18 am

[quote="Carlwalski"]Thanks for all the help guys.

gfunk_nz - Thanks mate much appreciate but I myself am an importer with loads of orders under the belt, always cheap to cut out the middle man (as you'd know) so I'd only be paying you to do something I can do. It's hard to believe how cheap it is to go direct, shops are charging 2 x 3 times the cost down here, unbelievable!! lol

No I am actually an exclusive distributor, so I am one of the middle men in effect, although my brands give me exclusive rights so fortunately they can't be bought off internet sites. The thing you have to consider is that the shops need to make a living, one of the brands I will no longer be carrying can now be picked up from an internet store for a few dollars more than my international dealer price, the reason, they either get seconds/old stock or with some other brands they come from other sources, not the manufacturer.
I know for a fact some speakers in the range I was selling I could buy from an internet shop on sale and have it here for less than if I got it from the manufacturers, now that's pretty screwed.

I know it's easy to get it direct and save money but consider whether you are getting legit A stock and if there's only a small amount in it, is it worth it for no warranty, no local support etc?