deadening help

Post by **mhyde71** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:27 pm

when deading doors or any other part of car.. (rightnow specifically doors), should I go over the plastic sheet that's there from factory, or pull the plastic sheet off so that the deadening is secure to any and all bare metal?? I think i know answer (pull plastic sheet off) but just wanna be sure if that is the preferred way.. I dont want to, but if it is preferred way IOW "for best result" then I will... pls thx

fordtough1 · Post by **fordtough1** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:46 pm

Yes, take the plastic off, otherwise you are defeating the purpose of the sound deadening. You want to add mass to the metal so that it doesn't resonate at a frequency you can hear, therefore eliminating that buzz or rattle.

Make sure you clean the metal off with something so that the deadener sticks good, and make sure you try to work it into the nooks and crannys as best you can. In other words don't just go over the big indentations that are formed into some of the metal panels on a car, actually press the stuff into those and make it contour with the body panels.

It takes alot of time, but it is worth it, I couldn't believe the differnce it made on my doors.

dako · Post by **dako** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:26 pm

deadening made a huuuuge difference in my ride as well. definitely rip out that plastic sheeting and if possible, use aluminum flashing (from lowe's roofing section) and very short self-tapping screws to cover up any large holes in your front door panels. tip: make sure the power drill is set to a low clutch setting as not to tear the flashing or drive the screw head through it. i wouldn't recommend draping deadening by itself over those larger holes. the backing can dry out and honestly, it's not rigid enough by itself.

fordtough1 · Post by **fordtough1** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:16 pm

^^what he said^^

Post by **mhyde71** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:32 pm

hey thanks guys! definately appreciate it..
Looking to get a couple doors, if not all, done tomorrow... but with this newly learned info about aluminum sheets and screwing that in.. not sure if I'll be able to track any down first thing in morning... but will poke around and see... possibly.. but

thaks guys!

amy other pointers, past hand expirience, or pointerts/tips... always welcome!

maka78 · Post by **maka78** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:39 pm

What does everyone recommend to get as a deadening material?

oldskoolmseriesfan · Post by **oldskoolmseriesfan** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:53 pm

I like the sound of that flashing idea, makes sense. What about the inside of the actual door panel, behind the glass.Strip the door completely, then use a spray deadener?

fordtough1 · Post by **fordtough1** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:09 am

I just cut the deadener into small pieces, and took my time and made sure the inner and outer skin were completely covered. I don't know about other makes, but my Taurus was thin skinned as hell. I put two layers on both parts.

I used fatmat, the thicker variety I think it is called rattletrap. I liked it ok, it is cheap and it stuck really good for me. I used a heatgun to warm the stuff before I tried to stick it also.

Post by **mhyde71** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:06 am

okay cool...2 ?'s

1) any temperature requirements?? I am using pg deadliner and nothing written on box nor any instructions...bought it used...it's 50 degrees outside right now which should be warming up here shortly....
2) see attached pic's...? what about that gastly large hole ...I can certainly do the smaller holes...but should I then bring in the deadliner to the outer (inside) metal sheet in that case???

Post by **mhyde71** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:54 am

another question is that is this PG deadliner supposed to be used in conjunction with other materials/products?? seems like it might have a hard time sticking to, contouring around, etc... just a lil thin, and not so sticky either..

IIRC someone mentioned about using silcone for the edges?? certainly a possibility, but neccessary??

oldskoolmseriesfan · Post by **oldskoolmseriesfan** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:36 am

mhyde71 wrote:another question is that is this PG deadliner supposed to be used in conjunction with other materials/products?? seems like it might have a hard time sticking to, contouring around, etc... just a lil thin, and not so sticky either..

IIRC someone mentioned about using silcone for the edges?? certainly a possibility, but neccessary??

Ive used the Black Deadliner. It looks a little thinner than the Blue that you are using. I used the Black on the interior panels on my '85 Daytona Turbo Z. Iused just enough to cover the tabs on each panel where they connect together and all screw holes aswell. My M50 was pushin 2 Kicker 12's, 137.7 db. NOT 1 RATTLE. I didnt deaden anything else such as inner door skins, just the above mentioned. I just used some Dynamat for the 1'st time,Ilike the Deadmat better. As for temp, just use the tried and true hair dryer meathod. It seems to be very maluable, even more so than the Dynamat.

oldskoolmseriesfan · Post by **oldskoolmseriesfan** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:39 am

fordtough1 wrote:I just cut the deadener into small pieces, and took my time and made sure the inner and outer skin were completely covered. I don't know about other makes, but my Taurus was thin skinned as hell. I put two layers on both parts.

I used fatmat, the thicker variety I think it is called rattletrap. I liked it ok, it is cheap and it stuck really good for me. I used a heatgun to warm the stuff before I tried to stick it also.

Thanks man. I guess Ive got some work ahead of me

bretti_kivi · Post by **bretti_kivi** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:33 am

go read www.sounddeadenershowdown.com.

Butyl please, not asphalt, even in Canada, and definitely overkill or that blue PG stuff (it's quite heavy?) over the top. Luxury liner or another massloaded vinyl would be great.

Bret

Post by **mhyde71** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:57 am

so this blue pg deadliner is over kill or just one of the heaviest out in market...?
im outside working on it now...will have pics inna lil while...but this is all I got and got it fr good price I feel for...I will complete this one door and be back in to read link...thnks!

Post by **mhyde71** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:34 pm

couple pic's of how things turned out today.. SHIT THOUGH.. didint even get one door completed, and learned that the tweet in my Co-Ax is not working??? WTF gee-sus! cant win for losing.. I started on that door becasue I am hearing thatr that door is sounding weaker than the other.. didnt go into real big diagnosises.. but just know that it sounded worse on left than right.. So at end of job, putting speaker back in I realize my tweets arent working.. It's not the crossover, the other tweet works just fine.... How could I have nlown that tweet?? I dont get it.. something is amist with respect to that!

Anyways here are some pic's...

Just some helpfull tips/pointers I learned was...

1) if you know you are going to do all doors, when you makie larger pieces... before placing/installing (Aluminum Sheet matal or the Liner), always make a trace of that piece.. so you wont have to go and try figure out the size from scratch again.. just make templates when you can... that's all...
2) forthcoming, forgot what it was.. but it was something worth while...

bretti_kivi · Post by **bretti_kivi** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:41 am

I'm working right now (as soon as I get the garage cleared tonight, because I've been doing other stuff for the last ten days) with 2.5mm, 4kg/m2 mats. They are damned heavy and really make a difference.

You want butyl to stop the vibrations and then mass / weight to kill roadnoise.

from elsewhere:

try this: http://www.earsc.com/pdfs/engineering/4foldWP.pdf
from that link:
Quote:
Barriers and Enclosures
A sound barrier is usually a solid material which, by virtue of its mass, acts as an acoustical reflector, interrupting the path of a sound wave. Abarrier may be a rigid structure, such as a concrete wall, or a limp sheet material, such as a flexible noise curtain. For most installations, it is not the stiffness of the barrier that produces the noise reduction, but the mass. More specifically, the weight per unit area— usually stated in pounds per square foot— provides the best single indicator of the attenuation characteristic of a barrier. A common myth holds that lead sheet is the best choice for barrier applications. In truth, however, it does not matter what type of material is used to produce the weight if, all other factors being equal, the surface density (lbs/ft2) is the same everywhere over the barrier’s surface. Obeying the laws of physics, a barrier will produce increasing attenuation at higher frequencies.
The formula isn't mentioned in the FAQ I've read and some of the info in there has been poo-pooed elsewhere on the 'net (their loss as it does a good job of explaining);
this is from diymobileaudio.com:
Quote:
The first variable normally considered in predicting sound transmission through a panel is its mass per unit area. An increase in transmission loss is expected with increasing mass, because the heavier the panel, the less it vibrates in response to sound waves, hence the less sound energy it radiates on the other side.

TL = 20 log (m*f) - 48

where:

TL is transmission loss (dB),
m is surface mass (kg/m2),
f is frequency (Hz).

Surface Mass
kg/m2 per mm thickness

Aluminium 2.7
Concrete, dense poured 2.3
Fir timber 0.55
Glass 2.5
Lead 11.0
Plexiglas or Lucite 1.15
Steel 7.7
Plywood 0.6
Dynamatt extreme 1.3

At higher frequencies, each exhibits an appreciable dip, called the coincidence dip. This dip is centred at the coincidence frequency, which depends on the material's stiffness and its thickness.
The resonant frequency large parameter is the geometry, and the small parameter is the materials coincident frequency.

IE shape is the primary determinant of resonant frequency.

To use Dynamatt extreme to equal you glass attenuation will require three layers on the steel.

Or 0.5mm lead on steel

Or 1.2 mm thick aluminium on steel.

would achieve the same result.
The mass is important, but the effect of the multiple materials sandwiched together should not be underestimated. In other words, test!

If I've understood correctly, Overkill is open cell foam which can and will reduce sound transmission. Luxury Liner Pro is a mass-loaded vinyl and, as they say, that's what you'll need if you want your car to be really quiet.

A list of densities: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_d..._fester_Stoffe (sorry, German, I haven't looked for an English one, don't need it). That's why all the decent manufacturers tell you how heavy their products are.

Bret

KHPower · Post by **KHPower** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:29 am

This thread is very interesting

Matt , you did a really good job as far as I can tell

You wanna come to Nebraska and do my van?

Post by **mhyde71** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:48 am

KHPower wrote:This thread is very interesting Matt , you did a really good job as far as I can tell You wanna come to Nebraska and do my van?

hehahe hey thanks... but yeah, no BS, this stuff takes a while..
It'll take like 6 months of Sundays to get 4 doors done... gee-whiz... but from what I hear & read, it is well worth it... just wish I could tell from doing the one door... but I can not... 1st) I dont think that the door is actually completed like I said above, 2) the tweeter is now non-existant, as i will have to replace it... but I dont hear any major difference so far with what I got accomplished, but would like to get the rear doors completed before I state officially.

Post by **stipud** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:02 am

Good job covering the holes. It looks like the damping material could be laid on better though... you might want to look into an applicator roller, so that you can stick it down to all the contours. It's very important that the material sits as snug as possible to the metal. It will dampen better that way, AND it will be less likely to fall off later.

Post by **mhyde71** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:12 am

stipud wrote:Good job covering the holes. It looks like the damping material could be laid on better though... you might want to look into an applicator roller, so that you can stick it down to all the contours. It's very important that the material sits as snug as possible to the metal. It will dampen better that way, AND it will be less likely to fall off later.

applicator roller?? any different than a wooden roller?? I had a 1" wooden roller, but kept breaking on me.. so I'll grab different if available??
But/And it was also getting cold out by the time I got to the final stages of putting on the deadener around the speaker area...

KHPower · Post by **KHPower** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:42 am

Matt did you use the Misses hair dryer to help warm up the deadner?

Post by **mhyde71** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:47 am

KHPower wrote:Matt did you use the Misses hair dryer to help warm up the deadner?

yes, sure did...! On high turbo power too!

PaulD · Post by **PaulD** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:37 pm

you will also find that sealing the holes in the doors will give you muchos more midbass