Hey guys! Been a while! Need help- x200.4 went poof

[444 FED]

In the last two posts, you just contradicted yourself.

In the first post, you make mention that heavy fingers at bass controls after the fact of the amplifier being set-up correctly, cause the failures.
Then in your post directed at me, you said it's an engeneering issue. So whihc is it?

It's not an engeneering problem. It's a volume jockey problem. The original post in this thread even eludes to that. "My Dad was showing off his system to his friend, when he turned it up, the smoke came out".

I see what you're saying about no current limiting going to each channel, hell I witnessed this myself on my RoDEK RA450, on an O-scope, at the point of clipping driving one channel, and measuring one channel, it put out 200W, what the entire amp was rated for at the load that was placed on it. My amp survived, it wasn't for very long, mind you, but I would think it would be fine. That amp is now over 16 years old, holy shit, I've owned that amp a long ass time, it was already a couple years old when I got it.

I am asking you to prove that there is some engeneering problem here and not that you are implying it, because you feel that personally each channel should have it's own power supply, etc, etc.

I would think if it truely was a design problem, then many manufactures would have more than one power supply in thier amplifiers, to aleviate any problems. If they really had that many amp failures, due to "design", the design would have to change, because the bean counters would pressure them to do so, so that failures and warrentee replacements were less.

From your posts it would seem that all you do is drive a repair bench, without finding the real cause and want to put the blame on the equipment, not the volume jockey running the system.
I hear far too often "I didn't even have it turned up, when it stopped working", yeah B.S. we've heard all the excuses. Like I've said I've always been able to find a reason that is not the amplifier for it blowing up, other than that one MRV-1505 that blew up on the board, not 3 minutes after connecting it, but in car failures, most of the time all I have to do is switch on the deck and flip through to the bass setting, where it is usually cranked, or look at the gain controls and see they are not set where they were when they left.

I'm not taking your posts personal, what I'm doing is pointing out the other factors involved, which you seem to not want to mention, and I don't know why. Informing people of the dangers of being a volume jockey, might just steer people to wanting to use thier equipment properly and not try and drive the amplifier beyond what it is truely capable of.

[MW3]

I hear what you are saying. Definately not questioning your technical abilities but consider this:

1. 70% of 4 Channels amplifiers sold are 4 ohm stereo on front and 4 ohm bridged on the rear. Especially if its a low priced amplifier.

So immediately your chances are 70% the amplifier will be run in that configuration.

2. Of course running any amp at a lower impedance will increase the failure rate.

Combine 1 and 2 and of course majority of failures you see will be 4 ohm stereo in front and 4 ohm bridged on the rear for four channels.

So the next question is that four channel amps should have an OVERALL higher failure rate than all other amps (monoblocks, 2 channels, etc). But that is simply not true according to my data.

I have reviewed failure data vs. actual sales for Exile and several years and product lines of PG (from my memory banks).

- Monoblocks BY far have highest failure rate.

- Second is 2 channel amps most likely used to power subwoofers (ie XS2300, XS2500, ZX500, Ti600.2).

- Third is four channel amps.

- 2 Channel that usually power front speakers (ZX400ti, Exile300.2/600.2) and 6 Channels amps are usually the most reliable.

Just my two cents.

[bdubs767]

- Monoblocks BY far have highest failure rate.

- Second is 2 channel amps most likely used to power subwoofers (ie XS2300, XS2500, ZX500, Ti600.2).

that prob has to do with dumbasses sending their amps into clipping; overdriving the entire system.

I wonder how much % wise of warranty fixed amps really has to do w/ user abuse that cant be proved like clipping ect vs the companies fault. I bet it ends up much higher on the user end.

[1moreamp]

I have reviewed failure data vs. actual sales for Exile and several years and product lines of PG (from my memory banks).

- Monoblocks BY far have highest failure rate.

- Second is 2 channel amps most likely used to power subwoofers (ie XS2300, XS2500, ZX500, Ti600.2).

- Third is four channel amps.

- 2 Channel that usually power front speakers (ZX400ti, Exile300.2/600.2) and 6 Channels amps are usually the most reliable.

Thanks Morgan your data is most valuable to this post. You have the entire quantitative totals for both PG and Exile over many years. Info like that is always golden.

As far as "mono-blocks' are concerned they numbers are relatively new to the market with the advent of Class D as its been, And Yes I must agree I have seen bunches of blown mono amps, almost all class D variety. This is to be expected with all the bass heads and SPlers out there. They are real money makers for amp companies. Prior to Class D true Mono-blocks were not so prevalent as they are nowadays.

I as a independent will still stick with my numbers covering all brands and makes as not seen by the factories, as I do cover the after market out of warranty area most solely. While your numbers cover all facets of factory support across all horizons available. < Much larger by far>. I thank you for your input to this post. Even though it does not support my line of thinking, the info alone is worth its weight in gold to the rest of the forum members.

I still feel that a 4 channel amp should have a robust enough output stage to handle the entire power supply output, even if one channel get the entire power supply dump. Until I see these sorts of amps made I will continue to use my 4 channel amp in a 4 channel balanced mode of operation, as it makes sense to me after all that I have seen over the years.
I don't doubt anything you have said, and I hope you don't take any ill feelings from my response as i felt your data deserved a response on my part.

I appreciate you input, thank you!

[MW3]

1moreamp. No worries, we are all here to discuss ideas.

[MW3]

- Monoblocks BY far have highest failure rate.

- Second is 2 channel amps most likely used to power subwoofers (ie XS2300, XS2500, ZX500, Ti600.2).

that prob has to do with dumbasses sending their amps into clipping; overdriving the entire system.

I wonder how much % wise of warranty fixed amps really has to do w/ user abuse that cant be proved like clipping ect vs the companies fault. I bet it ends up much higher on the user end.

Car audio products (specifically amplifiers and subwoofers) have a very high failure rate compared to most other consumer electronics.

Its really impossible to know what percentage of amplifier failures are due to customer abuse. But as a car audio manufacture you HAVE to assume and design products assuming the majority of users are going to drive things past its limits from time to time.

Bottom Line: Customers buy large amplifiers and speakers because they like their music loud for long periods of time. You better design gear that can meet their expectations.

[Wakeup]

Bottom Line: Customers buy large amplifiers and speakers because they like their music loud for long periods of time. You better design gear that can meet their expectations.

Heheh...when has any company REALLY designed gear that can meet expectations! specially nowadayz. In the past, I understand (hand made....quality...)

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

Car audio products (specifically amplifiers and subwoofers) have a very high failure rate compared to most other consumer electronics.

Its really impossible to know what percentage of amplifier failures are due to customer abuse. But as a car audio manufacture you HAVE to assume and design products assuming the majority of users are going to drive things past its limits from time to time.

Bottom Line: Customers buy large amplifiers and speakers because they like their music loud for long periods of time. You better design gear that can meet their expectations.

So to follow up with that, how does that affect a manufacturer's warranty program? If you know some people will abuse your products do you firmly cut off all types of failures from the warranty program that may be caused by abuse, or is it case-by-case or do you cover everything and hope your design can stand up to bass heads turning the knobs up?

[stipud]

What I wanna know is... Whatever happened to clip lights? Sure they don't work perfectly, but it's definitely a much better guideline for joe average consumer than just cranking the "volume" (gain) knob. At least with blinking lights telling them they are doing something wrong, they might get some sort of clue and turn it down a bit.

[bdubs767]

- Monoblocks BY far have highest failure rate.

- Second is 2 channel amps most likely used to power subwoofers (ie XS2300, XS2500, ZX500, Ti600.2).

that prob has to do with dumbasses sending their amps into clipping; overdriving the entire system.

I wonder how much % wise of warranty fixed amps really has to do w/ user abuse that cant be proved like clipping ect vs the companies fault. I bet it ends up much higher on the user end.

Car audio products (specifically amplifiers and subwoofers) have a very high failure rate compared to most other consumer electronics.

Its really impossible to know what percentage of amplifier failures are due to customer abuse. But as a car audio manufacture you HAVE to assume and design products assuming the majority of users are going to drive things past its limits from time to time.

Bottom Line: Customers buy large amplifiers and speakers because they like their music loud for long periods of time. You better design gear that can meet their expectations.

Yea I know, just kind of thinking it sucks for you as a car audio producer. I'm sure you guys see exile amps retruned under warranty all the time where the gains are up all the way and the bass boast is cranked up to +12db....just sucks.

[MW3]

Yea I know, just kind of thinking it sucks for you as a car audio producer. I'm sure you guys see exile amps retruned under warranty all the time where the gains are up all the way and the bass boast is cranked up to +12db....just sucks.

We get very few amps back, but that would be the case of 80% of monoblocks we get back.

[MW3]

So to follow up with that, how does that affect a manufacturer's warranty program? If you know some people will abuse your products do you firmly cut off all types of failures from the warranty program that may be caused by abuse, or is it case-by-case or do you cover everything and hope your design can stand up to bass heads turning the knobs up?

First, the hard part is how can you know or prove the product was abused?

Second, any time you begin skeptical questioning and adversal with customers or dealers its not good for long term business.

Except for B+/B- being wired backwards or water damage, NO ONE EVER admits the amp and speakers were being abused.

Overall, its cheaper to over engineer the product from the beginning. Better to spend a little more now to save a lot later (replacement, repair, shipping, paperwork, etc).

Just in case something of exile does fail, we simply replace the amps with new one. Speakers are field destroy.

[Wakeup]

So to follow up with that, how does that affect a manufacturer's warranty program? If you know some people will abuse your products do you firmly cut off all types of failures from the warranty program that may be caused by abuse, or is it case-by-case or do you cover everything and hope your design can stand up to bass heads turning the knobs up?

First, the hard part is how can you know or prove the product was abused?

Second, any time you begin skeptical questioning and adversal with customers or dealers its not good for long term business.

Except for B+/B- being wired backwards or water damage, NO ONE EVER admits the amp and speakers were being abused.

Overall, its cheaper to over engineer the product from the beginning. Better to spend a little more now to save a lot later (replacement, repair, shipping, paperwork, etc).

Just in case something of exile does fail, we simply replace the amps with new one. Speakers are field destroy.

It's unfortunate tho, that there are not alot of companies that OVER ENGINEER OR OVERBUILD there products anymore. Would make the products that much more expensive. And the littler cheapy amps will outshine with their bling, and their cheap price...

I see it all the time with Power supplies for Computers.. Cheapy 500 watt psu I see em around sell for 20-30 bux. But ones from better companies....Enermax, coolermaster, Thermaltake, antec etc, a 450 watt power supply will cost 70 bux...but also weighs like 3-4 times more than the cheapy ones. And work much better than those cheapy 500 watts.

Everyone always wants to buy the cheapy 500 watt power supply over an underrated 450 watt power supply that will be 10 times more power than that stupid 500 cheappy. But they pay the price in the long term.

[mrblob]

I'd like to second 1moreamp's theory. I ran a perfectly fine x100.4 in a setup where 2 xenon's at the front and 2 xenon subs at the back ... TEMPORARILY because my x1200.1 BLEW (I got the early manufactured models).

I started noticing alot of static and distortion at times comming through my front xenon components while the sub was pounding. I didn't realize what was happening until now. Soon the 100.4 just stopped working. This is what happend in a short few weeks of regular listening.

[Eric D]

I am going to chime into this thread, even though I really should just stay away from it.

I think Cecil has a very valid point, when some specific requirements are met.

Any 4-channel or 2-channel, or what ever channel amp will fail when abused. The only amp failures I have seen which were not related to abuse were capacitors catching on fire in PG amps, or power supply MOSFETs catching on fire in RF amps (the RF amps were also likely abuse, but IMO, the power supply should shut down before it catches on fire if designed right.)

Now, in the case of high powered 4-channel amps, I really have no evidence or fact to back this up. The largest 4-channel amps I have worked with are RF amps. 800a4s, and 750Xs to be exact. I think my Exile amp is 125W x 4, but I have since forgotten. Every single install in which I have used these amps 3 way into 4 ohm subwoofers has not resulted in any failure.

Now, personally, I had a Power 800a4 in my truck running 3-way on a 4 ohm sub, and 4 4 ohm components. So, 2 ohm on all channels. Technically this is balanced, and the amp has never failed me. I currently have an Exile 800.4 in its place, and it has never failed me. In my car I had run a ZX450, and a PPI PC450 this way, with no failures.

But, all of my setups are adjusted with an o-scope for zero gain overlap. I am for all practical purposes very easy on my amplifiers.

Now, here it comes, my opinion…

I feel power supplies and outputs should not be as related as people suggest. My preference is the biggest power supply a manufacturer will build, mated to the output section of their choice. Sagging rail voltages seem to cause the most failures in my experience. If a manufacturer builds the power supply strong enough, it will make life easier on the output channels. Now, in the case of planning ahead for failure, really all that is needed are some fuses on the rails to each channel, just like the MS amps use. If a channel is used out of spec (customers do it all the time), let the rail fuses on that channel blow, prior to taking the whole amp down with it.