dist block getting warm?

[ttocs]

I was driving around yesterday and had the system jammin for a while. The amp temp was getting hot and showing 117 on the temp gauge. My dist block is in the consol right under where my hand normal rests from shifting and I had the cover off and brushed the metal blocks that make the large wire connections. It is a 0 in, and 2 - 4 awg outs to the amp and I noticed that one side was hot enough to almost burn me(the sub side I assume) while the other side was much cooler but still hot. The 0 awg side was cooler then both but still warmer then I would have thought with as large as it is. Anyone else ever happen to notice the temp of their dist block? I have not checked the wire yet to see if it is getting warm, that is the next step. The octane was only able to accept 2 4 awg inputs so unless I use a reducer I couldn't do thicker wire.

[Jacampb2]

I think there are only two likely scenerios to cause this: 1) The metal the D blocks are made of is some sort of plated junk pot metal with a high resistance. 2)You have poor connection between the block and the cable.

#1 is probably the least likely, especially if they are not some cheap ass chicom units. All of PG's blocks that I have are brass. Most Brass alloys are only 35%-70% the conductivity of copper though. Even if they are made of quality metal, if the manufacturer skimped on needed conductor area for the current rating, then they will get hot.

#2 seems the most likely to me. Connections get loose over time and oxidation can raise hell at connections like this. It only takes the connection arcing one time to start a chain reaction of micro arcs and contact pitting which leave less and less surface area for the two conductors to physically be in contact. I have seen ground connections do this several times. I have actually seen a few burn clean through the sheet metal over time.

Good Luck,
Jason

[smgreen20]

I 2nd number 2. I had a fuse that I forgot to tighten one of the bolts down all the way, it was just snug, and it melted the plastic housing it got so hot.

[cyberpunky]

Is it above your transmission ? reason I ask as that area can get hot anyway, so wondering if d block is acting like heat sink for trans ?

but as above check for loose connections.

peace
Cyberpunky

[ttocs]

it is a knuconcept dist block. I have not checked the connections to see how tight they are, they might have worked their way loose by now.

It is above my consol, but the interesting part is that there are 3 large blocks of metal, 1 where the 0 awg comes in, and two where the 2 4 awgs go out. ONE of the 4 awg blocks is hot, the other is not which is why I have not considered being heat transmitted from the bottom. They would both be the same temp.

Next time you guys are jammin, touch yer block fer me and see if it is warmer then you would expect.

[Bfowler]

so what is connected on the otherside of that output?

[ttocs]

the fuse

[Bfowler]

lol, no you banannahead. i mean what is the 4awg terminal that is getting hot powering ?

is it the octane's sub side?

[ttocs]

oh gotcha...... I said above that I was assuming it was the sub side of the octane but I have not confirmed it.

It was just a strange thing I noticed while I was driving as my fingers brushed the terminals. Thank god its not high voltage huh? I have been busy trying to figure out what to do with my mustangs engine delima to try the stupid stuff like tighting up connections. maybe tomorrow.

[audiophyle_247]

That really sounds like a ground issue, not an issue with the dist block connections. Take a DMM & meter the resistance from the 0ga input to all of the 4ga outputs & I promise you will read almost zero resistance.

Weak grounds can cause the power wires to heat up like that, measure the resistance from the amps ground terminal to the battery neg terminal. Meter it with the car off & with the car running, the added power usage of having the car running can introduce resistance to the chassis ground normally not present. It only takes a little added resistance to cause these issues when running the system at high volume.

[ttocs]

I can understand that but I am confident with my grounds. I used a nut/bolt, and scrapped the paint. The two grounds are almost the exact same length and less then 12" long as it is grounded directly between the two points.

[smgreen20]

lol, no you banannahead. i mean what is the 4awg terminal that is getting hot powering ?

is it the octane's sub side?

I was in waiting for that. LMAO.


The fuse! That was good.

[joerg]

Did u ever try another fused distro just for test purposes? Maybe the knukonzept is to weak for what your octane le is asking for!

[audiophyle_247]

There is more to a good grounding point than just clamping down to bare metal, and having equal length ground cables. I assume you have matching 4ga ground wires, but you need to measure the ground resistance from the amps TO THE BATTERY. Your ground has to travel through the entire chassis, and many times sheet metal connections suck. Then you have the issue of the entire car's electrical system fighting for a good ground also, and that is when small issues come about all through the vehicle.
Which is why an upgraded ground connection at the battery is part of the Big-3!

There is also the possibility that your Dist block is too far away from the amps that the 4ga leg powering the sub section needs to be larger or the 0ga needs to reach closer to the amps & have a shorter 4ga section.
Electricity travels along the exterior of metal, so even a dist block made of cheap metal with a good conductive exterior coating will work just as well as a solid gold block would.

But what do I know, I'm just a Doctor.

[ttocs]

banana head - no reason to get all nasty now......

I have not tried a differend block. The way it is mounted in my consol would make it difficult and I don't have another block to use. you can see the dist block half way down here

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3237206/3

Again I am knee-deep in trying to replace the motor in my stang so a dist-block that I happen to notice was a little warm is still 2nd on my plate. Not to mention that it is 109 as I speak so I am not looking forward to spending more then 5 mins in my truck.

I have dealt with bad grounds before and I did a big-3 upgrade complete with 0 awg. I don't think it is a ground issue as if it was, then both of them should be hot since the grounds share the same bolt. To have one bad ground when they both tighten down at the same time seems hard to imagine.

I am leaning towards the idea that with the sub portion of the octane running at 2 ohm mono that I might need to consider upgrading the wire from the block to the amp. I am running knucoceptz flex 4awg and I will check it to see if it is getting warm as well as double checking the connections. I will wait for the sun to go down tonight and take a look.

Thanks for the responses and ideas.

[Jacampb2]

...you need to measure the ground resistance from the amps TO THE BATTERY. Your ground has to travel through the entire chassis, and many times sheet metal connections suck...

The only reason that you would find a high resistance connection between the chassis and battery ground is due to a faulty connection, either where the battery/chassis ground is, or the amplifier/chassis ground is. Even in a rusted out hoopdie, there is more conductive cross sectional area in the sheet metal/frame/unibody then there is in any cable you are likely going to be able to afford and fit into the vehicle. Even with steel having a lower conductance than copper, there is still more than enough area that it makes no difference. If there is a high resistance between the chassis and battery, it is at a chassis ground point, and that is the reasoning behind the new ground in the big three anyhow...

Then you have the issue of the entire car's electrical system fighting for a good ground also, and that is when small issues come about all through the vehicle.
Which is why an upgraded ground connection at the battery is part of the Big-3!

Nothing fights for ground potential. You can literally ground as many circuits as you want, you can reach a point where the conductor cannot physically carry all the current it is being asked to, but nothing "fights" over it. The reason you get ground loops is due to different ground potentials. Grounding all circuits to a common point is a good way to reduce the possibility of this issue.

And in reference to your previous comment, the resistance of the chassis does not increase while the vehicle is running. It is possible that if there already is a poor chassis/ground connection that it will get worse when current draw increases, as it will heat up and increase in resistance, but the chassis itself does not contribute to this, it all goes back to good solid ground connections in the first place.

Electricity travels along the exterior of metal, so even a dist block made of cheap metal with a good conductive exterior coating will work just as well as a solid gold block would.

This is absolutely false. Skin effect only occurs with high frequency AC voltage. It has absolutely no bearing or effect on a DC circuit with the exception of the initial in rush. A solid gold block would conduct far better than a pot metal block in a DC circuit. Even in AC, skin effect has a defined "depth" based on frequency, at lower frequencies electrons flow much deeper in the conductor. At typical household AC frequencies of 60Hz for the US and 50Hz for Europe, skin effect is mostly non existent. It takes frequencies higher than several thousand Hz to start to see any problems.

But what do I know, I'm just a Doctor.

What kind of doctor? Hopefully not a PHD in engineering, because if so, you need to go back to school. If you're a proctologist, well, we all respect your profession, but it doesn't mean you know shit about what you are talking about here

Later,
Jason

[Jacampb2]

BTW, I agree that ttocs should double check his grounds, even if the utmost care was taken at prepping the ground point, it could still have loosened or corroded over time and be causing problems.

Isn't the sub side of the Octane a Ti400? I would think that 4awg would be sufficient for this amp, unless you have an abnormally long run from the dist. to the amp-- and your truck is a ford ranger, right, so how long could it possibly be?

Later,
Jason

[ttocs]

I don't know that I agree about the skin affect not playing a part in dc when it comes to high current applications but it has been years since I had the book open to look at it. I am not going to argue about just say I don't know.......

I am fairly sure the LE octane is 2 - zx600Ti's and the sub side was optimized to help it play 2 ohm mono.

[audiophyle_247]

You are right, I am mistaken on the flow of DC current through metal conductors. Thanks for clarifying.

The only reason that you would find a high resistance connection between the chassis and battery ground is due to a faulty connection, either where the battery/chassis ground is, or the amplifier/chassis ground is.

Kind of reiterating what I said dont ya think? I believe the issue is a poor ground, as you also claimed shortly after attacking my post. And just because the ground connection is to bare metal does not make it a quality ground, there are good & bad places to make ground connections in a vehicle.

Nothing fights for ground potential. You can literally ground as many circuits as you want, you can reach a point where the conductor cannot physically carry all the current it is being asked to, but nothing "fights" over it. The reason you get ground loops is due to different ground potentials. Grounding all circuits to a common point is a good way to reduce the possibility of this issue.

Little bit of a contradiction there, no? If you have reached the limits of the conductor, everything will struggle. Same thing as running too small of a ground wire from an amp, or too small of a ground from the battery to the chassis. If anything a ground loop supports the argument, because a good ground connection in a poorly chosen place can easily create a ground loop. Not to mention most ground loops are created while the car is RUNNING, ie audio system competing with the vehicles ignition system, because there are many more active electrical systems running.

What kind of doctor? Hopefully not a PHD in engineering, because if so, you need to go back to school. If you're a proctologist, well, we all respect your profession, but it doesn't mean you know shit about what you are talking about here

Later,
Jason

That would be what most people would refer to as a joke, which you obviously must not have caught. I guess the laughing smiley didnt work?
No I am not a doctor, and I do not claim to know everything.

[Jacampb2]

I am not sure why I am bothering, but here goes...

#1) Not really, you make it sound as if the entire chassis of the vehicle can be at fault. This is simply very unlikely. I was merely pointing out that if there is a ground issue, it is likely at a sheet metal/cable connection. I do agree with you that there are good and bad locations to locate a ground connection. For the most part, if you don't pick a shitty brace or other piece of metal which is only spot welded in a handful of places, then you are probably going to be fine. Also, while I agreed that it is a good idea to double check the grounds, I still doubt that it is the issue. While a high resistance connection, whether it be ground or at the distribution, will cause the cables to get hotter, they get the hottest close to the poor connection point. Ttocs said that the block was almost hot enough to burn him, this leads me to believe the problem is at the block, like I said in my initial reply.

#2)No, either you misunderstand, or I am not explaining clearly, but my point was nothing fights over a ground. You make it sound like when the rest of the cars electrical system is running, that all the circuits in the vehicle fight over what gets a good ground, and what gets a shitty ground. This doesn't even make sense. The grounds don't change and the resistance of the ground does not change just because there are more circuits on line. The only way that would even be possible is if the conductor is overloaded and cannot physically carry the current. We have to assume that the auto manufacturer did a reasonably good job of sizing their grounds and choosing good chassis ground points-- this only leaves the install, and if you have done your job right, then it won't be a problem either.

Ground loops are another animal all together. Most are caused by a high resistance ground, but it can also be indirectly caused by devices with floating grounds, like processors/cross overs/EQ's. An example would be if you were to install a HU in the vehicle and decided to run your own ground for whatever reason. For a chassis tie point you happened to pick a metal bracket under the dash. Said bracket is only tied to the main chassis by two or three bolts in cheap captive nuts. Now you have the HU grounded to a high resistance ground. You may THINK it is a good ground because you cleaned it and got it rock solid, but it has a poor chassis connection elsewhere. With the rest of the audio equipment properly grounded, you are almost 100% assured that you will have a ground loop problem. I think this is what you are trying to say, but the point is, you have a good ground, or you don't, not that you have a good ground in a bad place...

Ignition system whine is actually HF noise from the high voltage coil discharges. It can also be a sign of a poor ground connection, but it is not the same thing as a ground loop.

#3)Mine was a joke too. I'm not going to explain it, because that takes the fun out of it

As for attacking your post, I am not really trying to, but you said quite a few things that made very little sense. Maybe you knew what you meant, I don't know, I was just trying to clarify.

Later,
Jason

[audiophyle_247]

I am not sure why I am bothering, but here goes...

x2
but here goes anyway.

First off, I think you are reading WAY to much into my posts, so instead I will sum up what I meant with YOUR WORDS.

#1) Not really, you make it sound as if the entire chassis of the vehicle can be at fault.

No I did not.

I was merely pointing out that if there is a ground issue, it is likely at a sheet metal/cable connection. I do agree with you that there are good and bad locations to locate a ground connection. For the most part, if you don't pick a shitty brace or other piece of metal which is only spot welded in a handful of places, then you are probably going to be fine.

Thank you, THAT is all I was trying to say! Without pics of the actual install ground location, who the hell knows where the ground could be?
Bring up the idea, hopefully the OP can lay that to rest or investigate it.

Also, while I agreed that it is a good idea to double check the grounds, I still doubt that it is the issue. While a high resistance connection, whether it be ground or at the distribution, will cause the cables to get hotter, they get the hottest close to the poor connection point. Ttocs said that the block was almost hot enough to burn him, this leads me to believe the problem is at the block, like I said in my initial reply.

That I believe to be wrong.
I have seen many installs where poor ground locations have been made (similar to what I highlighted above in YOUR post) and the fuses get hotter than the wire itself. Correct me if I am wrong (which I am sure you will) but I accounted this to the fact that the fuse is a single conductor opposed to the large mass of wire strands in the cable, thus the weakest part of the link (in relation to the entire power wire), & susceptible to heating up first because that is what the primary purpose of a fuse is for, to fail first.

#2)No, either you misunderstand, or I am not explaining clearly, but my point was nothing fights over a ground. You make it sound like when the rest of the cars electrical system is running, that all the circuits in the vehicle fight over what gets a good ground, and what gets a shitty ground. This doesn't even make sense. The grounds don't change and the resistance of the ground does not change just because there are more circuits on line. The only way that would even be possible is if the conductor is overloaded and cannot physically carry the current.

I rest my case, misunderstanding is not on my side. Poor connection between the chassis & battery is a pretty common problem for many vehicles when people add systems.

We have to assume that the auto manufacturer did a reasonably good job of sizing their grounds and choosing good chassis ground points-- this only leaves the install, and if you have done your job right, then it won't be a problem either.

Absolutely, FOR OEM ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS! I highly doubt manufacturers plan for people to install HO Alts, or audio systems easily capable of drawing two to three times the amperage of the entire vehicle. Look at the fuse panel under the hood of any car, the primary fuse between the battery & fuse panel is rarely over 100 amps, that is all the manufacturers plan for. An aftermarket 4ch amp & sub amp can EASILY exceed that
& if YOU did the job right, you would have already addressed this issue in the first place.



I am done here. ttocs, your Ranger is sick & I love how clean the install is. Your center console sub is bad-ass. Hope you get the issue resolved.

Peace.

[cyberpunky]

Just a thought, seeing how you mentioned its V hot there...any chance distro had sun shining on it before you drove car ?
peace
Cyberpunky

[ttocs]

Just a thought, seeing how you mentioned its V hot there...any chance distro had sun shining on it before you drove car ?
peace
Cyberpunky

I had considered this as well, there are days when you get in your car and wish you had oven mitts to drive with. If this were the case though it would have been hard for just the one smaller square block to be in the sun.

audiophyle - Thanks for the compliments on the consol and truck. After planning to put a killer system in it since I bought it new in 97 I am happy with how everything came out.