What is the best PG amp ever made?

[Eric D]

In your opinion, what is the best PG amp ever made? Why do you think so? These are my opinions...

MS

- Pros, the bigger amps are true dual mono, have beautiful looking boards when mounted under plexi, and for many people the lack of on board processing is a feature. The bigger amps also have lots of power.

- Cons, the MS250 and MS275 sized amps have very weak output sections, which means limited power. These smaller amps also have very non-symmetrical circuit layouts and don't look nearly as nice under plexi as the bigger MS amps do. The build quality of the MS series is the lowest of any PG amp. Loose wires in the amp and very poor circuit board mounting method, along with poor device mounting (solved in the TA and later versions of the MS275) add up to amps which are easier to break.

M

-Pros, lots of clean power in a small package. Some of the coolest limited editions (this is just my opinion), such as the Bandit and Outlaw. Bigger amps have useful onboard features.

-Cons, heat, and lots of it. M amps get hot faster than any other PG amp and this causes early failure of their capacitors. Their steel chassis also seem to rust sooner than any other PG amp.

ZX

-Pros, the most power (specifically headroom) for their size of any PG amps. Elaborate on board processing. Features like the LPL44 and RMD. Fan cooling keeps them reliable. Well thought out construction which easily comes apart and goes back together.

-Cons, barrier strip speaker screws don't make sense with set screw power terminals. Fan makes noise. Rust easily and fast in the white version. Fans collect cat hair which causes them to catch on fire.

ZPA

-Pros, dual mono. Processing via add in card so you can keep it pure if you want too. Big power. Most overbuilt of any PG amp other than some Xenon models. Multi load optimization. Balanced inputs. Fan cooling. Large plexi windows.

-Cons, fan makes noise. Amps are physically quite large. Expensive then and still now.

Ti

-No personal experience for me

Tantrum

-No personal experience for me

XS

-Pros, simple clean construction. Very well made. Quality components

-Cons, lower power output

Xenon

-Pros, load sensing. Fan cooling. On board processing

-Cons, way way way to physically big!

So, based on all the amps I have owned, used, and repaired, the ZX450v2 is my favorite amp. It is far from perfect, but produces some of the most power for its size of any PG amp, looks good to me, especially in black, has a big set of features, and to this day I am still impressed at its design, both internally and externally.

[KUB3]

[denim]

I don't think a single line can be labeled the best, as there are too many factors, and in reality there is only a good choice for a particular install.

[Eric D]

Nice input, that was useful for everyone.

[marko]

for me it has to be the original ms-2250 with shroud, it was expensive and had exclusivity.. "team phoenix gold", that epitomises what pg was all about back then. tons of power and top shelf sq

[dwnrodeo]

This is definitely a tough one... I will agree with Denim with saying there are a lot of factors to consider.

The ZX450v.2 is definitely the most versatile amp PG produced, with so many crossover options you could do just about everything.

I have never heard ZPA's, but have always wanted to own and try one. The idea behind the technology and sound quality has always intrigued me. Downfall is the reliability and the need for 8 volts.

I know Eric might not agree, but the Xenon's are one of my favorite lines due to the 4 channel monster amps, cosmetics, load sensing, and detented crossovers. Only downfall was the lack of x10 multiplier.

XS, Saffire and Tantrum amps to me are the perfect mid to entry level amps. Reliable and made their rated power with understated looks.

I've never dealt with MS and they hold no nostalgic factor for me like the XS, so I will not comment.

TiAL amps. More reliable than ZX (other than potentiometer issues) but had less headroom. Regular Ti's prone to rust problems.

If I were to choose one amp, it would be a black ZX950. One amp to run one system, with unlimited crossover options to allow a fully active system. I would have chosen the Reactor, but the rusting issues are a huge deterrent. It is also the major downfall of Ti amps.

[Misfire]

In my humble opinion, it is hands down the MS/MPS series. I can still recall the first Phoenix Gold amp I saw.... it was a friends MPS2220. As soon as I saw the internals, along with the sound, that was it. Granted the 2125, 2250, and the 2500 had very visually balanced layouts then the smaller amps, they all had that "Sound". And the LE amps based on them just pushed them over the top. Granted they might not have been the most reliable series PG ever produced, the Gold PC boards just made them that much more desirable. They just shouted excellence.

I would rate the M-series second just in front of the ZX/Ti line. They might not have had the power of the MS/MPS or even the ZX/Ti line, they are just awesome sounding amps, plus I could afford them at the time.

This might sound poorly to some folks here, but this is my opinion. The Saffire and XS lines never caught on with me. Maybe it was the look of the MS/MPS series that just made the other lower lines look ordinary, so I never really got into them. They might be great amps in their own right, I was just hooked by those other lines. Granted I could afford the lower lines, I always just saved up until I could get the others.

[stipud]

My favorites are...
M series - Simplest design, easiest to work on, best sounding.
ZX series - Extremely versatile crossovers and configuration. Powerful, small amps that can be mounted anywhere.
Ti series - Lacks the gold circuit board and through-hole mounting of ZX, but more reliable in general.

But winner goes to (this one is obvious in my case)...
AL Ti - NO RUST!! I will have this gear until I die

Honorable mention go to ZPA, MS and Xenon. I certainly wouldn't say no to any of them. I just have much less hands on experience, and less memories tied in with them. It's not all about the tech for me, but it's how the amps made me feel when I first saw them. I think the same applies to many of you.

[Eric D]

Stipud, the Ti400.2, Ti600.2, and Ti500.4 still are through-hole, but all the next gen larger Ti amps went to SMD (Ti800.1, Ti1200.1, Ti1000.2, Ti900.7 and any other I may have missed).

I personally like SMD for reliability and small form factor (although I never understood why the SMD based Xenon amps actually got bigger), but hate SMD for soldering on when an amp breaks.

[stipud]

Stipud, the Ti400.2, Ti600.2, and Ti500.4 still are through-hole, but all the next gen larger Ti amps went to SMD (Ti800.1, Ti1200.1, Ti1000.2, Ti900.7 and any other I may have missed).

I personally like SMD for reliability and small form factor (although I never understood why the SMD based Xenon amps actually got bigger), but hate SMD for soldering on when an amp breaks.

Exactly; it's not a total win-win situation, but it certainly doesn't stop me from buying them. But even in the big amps, all the parts you need to replace (transistors, capacitors) are still through-hole, so that's the most important part to me. I haven't heard of any problems with the SMT parts in Ti amps, always transistors, potentiometers, LEDs or caps (which are all through-hole). We'll see if that still stands 10 years from now... I think it will.

I would rather do a cap replacement on a Ti than on a ZX daughterboard as well.

Oh, one big downside to the AL Ti amps I forgot to mention... they rattle like crazy, even when mounted on a separate surface to the subwoofer. I've had to install dynamat under the covers to offset this, but they still rattle a bit even after that. My ZXes never had this problem, but they did rust like crazy, so let's call it a draw

[Pillow]

Great post Eric! This should provide for some sound debate!

I have limited exposure to seeing others systems, so I can only draw on what I have personally done. But here it goes!

The best sounding amp I have used so far is the M50. Just a great amp! This is compared to old PPIs, RFs, Orions, and Alpines of comparable power ratings.

The looks inside and out of the M series if just wonderful! It screams PG to me and is what got me stuck on the brand from way back in the day. I can remember going into the local audio store and drooling over them! By todays standards they are not powerhouses, but still can hold their own.

ZX series is what I am collecting now for a period 99 install. This is definitely a more sophisticated amp! I like the fan and board layouts. The plexi viewing ports are especially slick. My one beef is that the ZX500 wastes a lot of board space. The ZX350 might be the best layout of the bunch. I think the white chassis continues the proper "look" for PG - white and gold... Collectors can have the black ones I think the rust issues with the ZX line is an area of cheapness that PG should have done better on.

I had a Sapphire once, but quickly traded it. Just not my style. Nothing against its functionality though.

ZPAs are just too darn expensive! I cannot imagine they are that much better than the other PG amps.

In summary the ZX and Ti amps are really taking a price hit these days... Collect them now

[Eric D]

This brings up a different point, has anyone had to replace caps on a Ti amp?

I was under the impression they used newer better caps, and no one has ever sent me any to have the caps replaced on (that I remember), so I took it this issue was not with them.

If you blow an output transistor in a SMD amp, chances are you will loose its gate or base resistor which would be surface mount. The same goes for the power supply FETs. But, replacing these is not nearly as bad as a large SMD IC, such as the SG3525 PWM controller.

[Pillow]

Fans collect cat hair which causes them to catch on fire.

Bastard ass cats!!!

[Eric D]

Pillow, when you take apart the ZX500 it seems like there is not a whole lot there (wasted space as you put it), but if you took the heatsinks off the top of the board, the power supply and output transistors are so crammed in there they take up every inch of space available. I assume PG wanted to keep the same dimensions on the height and width to match the other ZX amps, but needed the length to get the power output which left them with a lot of empty space on the rest of the board.

But, they could have added additional capacitance, or maybe even some larger power supply components and made better use of this space.

[kg1961]

my question is why have a cat living in your car

[Eric D]

my question is why have a cat living in your car

I wish I knew. I fixed the amp for a guy, so it was not mine. I never thought to ask him.

[Pillow]

^ Very nice picture Eric! Worth a thousand words and a different perspective than just looking at the board put together.


When you look in the left side plexi of the ZX500... It is just barren. LOL

I figured it was a cost saving measure so that the ZX450 could share the same chassis.

I forgot to mention that the ZX450 would probably be ideal for bi-amping components for a full active setup. I am not sure if anyone here is using it in that fashion though.

[Eric D]

Well, I did not bi-amp, but I did run a set of ZX450s in a more unique way than most people did. Although I only ran this setup for about a month prior to tearing my system down and going with MS amps.

I had two subs and a set of components. I ran one ZX450 to each side, using the on board crossover. The front bridged to the right component speaker, and the rear bridged to the right sub. The left ZX450 then ran the same, front bridged to the left component and rear bridged to the left sub. This gave me the same separation as a dual mono setup (actually better since the right and left never came together after leaving my head unit), and tons of power. This configuration was probably the loudest my system ever was, while still sounding excellent. But, I just was happier with the look of the MS1000TA instead...

[kg1961]

just love the look of the ms1000ta installed like that
what kinda car is that? im doing the same sorta look in the acura tl with both focal amp showing the cusotm plexi i have

[stipud]

This brings up a different point, has anyone had to replace caps on a Ti amp?

Yep, one of the big rail caps fell out of my Ti1200.1 in shipping

I actually put litmus paper under the capacitor banks in my Ti900.7 when I had it apart so that I would have a visual indicator if any of them started leaking. In theory at least...

[stipud]

my question is why have a cat living in your car

He needs it to guard his dope plants from squirrels...

[Eric D]

That car is a 1997 Ford Taurus, the highest performing, most stylish and hip car ever made...

NOT!!!

It might have been a very uncool car, but I was proud of the stereo, and it saved my wife and I's life when we totaled the car in Detroit.

http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html

[Pillow]

Very nice Eric! Insane install! I love the fan/breather hidden setup, nice work.

I can appreciate both setups.

You might have started the monoblock each side movement then! It seems to be an upcoming trend running a D class mono on each side of the car. Now that alleged quality D class high freq amps have become available... Maybe SPL quality.

[KUB3]

^
(Sorry I was being an ass. I thought this thread was going to turn into bitching about PG's old school era. If you must insult my politics, my car, my girl, but not my amps ) Anyway...



My favorite PG amp for cosmetics, with cost and space being no object is the original 2250. It's just so good looking and of it's time. My ideal amp would be that but shrunk in the wash somehow

[dwnrodeo]

my question is why have a cat living in your car

He needs it to guard his dope plants from squirrels...

Ha ha ha ha ha!

"He smells like cigarettes."